DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[muppets3d]

There are really a few different issues here.

One is the use of bots…no one should be using them and DVC should stop it.

Two…stopping your mega point owners from renting tons of reservations, especially since they target the rooms that owners really want due to low cost.

Three…what improvement to the success rate will there be for the vast majority of owners who are being shut out today. .

If talking about three, for BWV RV rooms, since there are only 52, that success rate isn’t going to be that much different because only a handful of BWV owners will now be winners.

This doesn’t mean that DVC should not crack down on those commercially renting, because they should.

But, if they don’t also do something about the demand and imbalance between RV and PV rooms in the point charts, the vast majority of owners of these resorts will continue to be frustrated and shut out, even if there are no more spec rentals.

The changing demographics of DVC membership and the Disney-traveling public means studios are just more in demand these days than they were when resorts like Boardwalk were designed. So yes, these rooms will always probably be a tough booking. That's just how it is.

 

[tx911]

I'm coming into this conversation a bit late and even to DVC itself, having only purchased Riviera and Grand Floridian early last year .
That said, I fail to see why I should or would care about someone renting out points as a business. The resorts only have so many points to be sold and some held by Disney so it isn't like it can be "overbooked". It's a timeshare so it isn't like living at home and my neighbor uses the house next door as an AirBNB and I've got different people sleeping there every night. DVC is a hotel so everyone to everyone else is essentially a stranger.

Why should I care or find it comforting that these commercial reservations will slow or stop? I saw on other forums comments like "about time", "thank goodness" and "I should thank the board" but as of right now, I don't understand why I would care. Can someone with greater experience shed some light on why this is important?

I guess we can start with It's against the Rules.

Probably we could end there. But the other factor is the allegation that commercial renters invariably hoard huge numbers of high-demand rooms, presumably using bots and long periods of reservation walking to maximize their efficiency in obtaining those rooms. Thus the perception is that commercial renters are bad for the average member.

 

[Sandisw]

Ok, that’s a modest proposal. Let’s say they attack the big guys only and it stops 25% of the rentals. What then? Is that sufficient for you, or would you think it acceptable that they keep going down the line until a certain percentage is hit?

The contracts apply to owners as individuals and not as a collective group.

It’s not about what % of rooms being rented in today’s market, it’s about the rentals each owner is doing and whether or not their actions violate the contract.

 

[BeachClub2014]

And, regardless of what they do, anyone who expects to see a drastic change in availability at 11 months or 7 months for the highly desirable rooms is going to be disappointed.

You are right, of course, in pointing out that some room categories are very limited in their supply and that there is no magic wand to create significantly more rooms available at those price points. But that's not the point many people are making when applauding the seeming crackdown on commercial renters who generally have a disproportionate number of these value rooms tied up in spec reservations. The point is that there will now (hopefully) be a greater opportunity for "regular" members to win the value-room reservation lottery for their use.

To illustrate the point using entirely made up numbers, if currently "regular" members are only able to secure reservations for five of these coveted rooms daily, and then post crackdown, that number increases to ten or fifteen "regular" members getting those rooms, then it's a significant change from the status quo, especially for those five or ten additional "regular" members.

Nobody can predict with certainty who will be able to secure those scarce rooms, but logic strongly suggests that the same rooms will become more accessible to "regular" members for their personal use and enjoyment.

Isn't that a good thing?

 

[DonMacGregor]

You know that your DVC Gold badge is visible, right?

Seems like they have a pretty good handle on how it works here:

https://www.disboards.com/threads/for-rent-or-transfer-81-riviera-points-20pp-good-anywhere.3963651/

 

[Sandisw]

The changing demographics of DVC membership and the Disney-traveling public means studios are just more in demand these days than they were when resorts like Boardwalk were designed. So yes, these rooms will always probably be a tough booking. That's just how it is.

Which is why it’s important, myself included, to be sure it’s clear to others what we are referencing.

There will always be a healthy rental market because DVC ownership has grown.

The post yesterday that outlined how many owners there were shows just how big.

If there are 20k owners at BWV, and we assume most contracts are owned by two…you have an estimated 10k memberships.

Even with the most strictest guidance for allowable rentals, the potential is there for plenty. And this is just one resort!

 

[DonMacGregor]

I'm coming into this conversation a bit late and even to DVC itself, having only purchased Riviera and Grand Floridian early last year .
That said, I fail to see why I should or would care about someone renting out points as a business. The resorts only have so many points to be sold and some held by Disney so it isn't like it can be "overbooked". It's a timeshare so it isn't like living at home and my neighbor uses the house next door as an AirBNB and I've got different people sleeping there every night. DVC is a hotel so everyone to everyone else is essentially a stranger.

Why should I care or find it comforting that these commercial reservations will slow or stop? I saw on other forums comments like "about time", "thank goodness" and "I should thank the board" but as of right now, I don't understand why I would care. Can someone with greater experience shed some light on why this is important?

I'd probably start with the preceding 1,558 posts in this thread...

 

[Brian Noble]

Even if most won’t see a change, some will. It most certainly matters to them.

Starfish on the beach etc. and so forth.

 

[lowlight]

The contracts apply to owners as individuals and not as a collective group.

It’s not about what % of rooms being rented in today’s market, it’s about the rentals each owner is doing and whether or not their actions violate the contract.

The OP stated he wanted them to focus on the top .1 of renters who he estimated accounted for at least 25% of the active rentals on the market. My question was, if he is correct on those numbers, and nothing changes, is that an adequate stopping point? If not, then what? People are arguing over what is too far for enforcement (poor Aunt Millie's extra 1000 points a year to supplement her Social Security), I'm asking those people what's too little enforcement in their eyes.

 

[Cyberc1978]

The OP stated he wanted them to focus on the top .1 of renters who he estimated accounted for at least 25% of the active rentals on the market. My question was, if he is correct on those numbers, and nothing changes, is that an adequate stopping point? If not, then what? People are arguing over what is too far for enforcement (poor Aunt Millie's extra 1000 points a year to supplement her Social Security), I'm asking those people what's too little enforcement in their eyes.

I think that those who bark the loudest will continue to bark until they themselves see a noticeable change in availability.
That means if they are seeking value rooms then they will continue to complain until…… forever.

 

[Sandisw]

I'm coming into this conversation a bit late and even to DVC itself, having only purchased Riviera and Grand Floridian early last year .
That said, I fail to see why I should or would care about someone renting out points as a business. The resorts only have so many points to be sold and some held by Disney so it isn't like it can be "overbooked". It's a timeshare so it isn't like living at home and my neighbor uses the house next door as an AirBNB and I've got different people sleeping there every night. DVC is a hotel so everyone to everyone else is essentially a stranger.

Why should I care or find it comforting that these commercial reservations will slow or stop? I saw on other forums comments like "about time", "thank goodness" and "I should thank the board" but as of right now, I don't understand why I would care. Can someone with greater experience shed some light on why this is important?

No matter how one feels, we should care that the product we bought is being used by all of us in the manner is was intended.

We should want DVCMC to enforce the terms of if.

And, while we are allowed to rent reservations on our membership, we are not allowed to rent to the degree that the motive is no longer for vacations but to make money.

And there are people who have bought a ton of points for that purpose.

These mega point owners take advantage of the system.

I personally don’t care about the rental market, and what others do.

But I do support DVC cracking down to ensure the level of rentals any owners are doing are in line with the terms.

We are allowed to rent but can’t be doing it in such a way that it looks like you are a commercial enterprise.

Just due to the sheer size of the DVc memberships, there will always be thousands of rentals on a regular basis, but owners shouldn’t be adding to that by renting well above what they should be renting.

Now, it’s still up to the board to determine what that looks like and there are a wide range of opinions on what they hope enforcement will look like.

That’s where we are at.

 

[muppets3d]

I just called and made a lead guest change on an upcoming reservation.

I was asked to attest that the reservation was for quote "your personal use only" (yes, member services asked me to attest that the reservation was for my personal use).

How does any renting fit into that narrow definition? A booking that is the result of an occasional rental would not be for my personal use.

 

[Sandisw]

The OP stated he wanted them to focus on the top .1 of renters who he estimated accounted for at least 25% of the active rentals on the market. My question was, if he is correct on those numbers, and nothing changes, is that an adequate stopping point? If not, then what? People are arguing over what is too far for enforcement (poor Aunt Millie's extra 1000 points a year to supplement her Social Security), I'm asking those people what's too little enforcement in their eyes.

Right, and I think the point was that the owners who are that are renting thousands and thousands of points each year clearly for commercial reason, represent .1% of the membership, and that if they go after those owners, it will substantially reduce the market back down to where it should be.

I know our opinions differ on where the threshold is, but with 50K to 75K memberships, even with the strictest of parameters for owners, the rental market will still have thousands of rentals a month.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I just called and made a lead guest change on an upcoming reservation.

I was asked to attest that the reservation was for quote "your personal use only" (yes, member services asked me to attest that the reservation was for my personal use).

How does any renting fit into that narrow definition? A booking that is the result of an occasional rental would not be for my personal use.

Unless all calls are recorded and kept for years i don’t see how this can be used in any way.

 

[Sandisw]

I just called and made a lead guest change on an upcoming reservation.

I was asked to attest that the reservation was for quote "your personal use only" (yes, member services asked me to attest that the reservation was for my personal use).

How does any renting fit into that narrow definition? A booking that is the result of an occasional rental would not be for my personal use.

Booking that results in the occasional use of a friend or family wouldn't be for your own personal use either....

Since that wording does not match the new online booking wording, nor does it even match the definition of who is allowed to be a guest on reservations, I think they need to train the CMs to be consistent.

 

[muppets3d]

Booking that results in the occasional use of a friend or family wouldn't be for your own personal use either....

Since that wording does not match the new online booking wording, nor does it even match the definition of who is allowed to be a guest on reservations, I think they need to train the CMs to be consistent.

Exactly my concern there. Yeah it was just an odd use of words. I don't often have to change lead guests but the next time I do I will see if the same thing happens.

 

[Cfabar1]

No…. the original villas are the worst…. no one should ever book there… especially the 2 bedrooms over Spring Break…. pay no attention to the penguin lobby…. and the short walk to the monorail…. and the short walk to PolyT….. move along… resort villas are right this way…. I hear the soundproofing is great!

Or the covered walkway to the main building from your building...

I hear if you stay in BPK you get to ride around on a golf cart! Seems worth it to me!

 

[Judique]

I'm coming into this conversation a bit late and even to DVC itself, having only purchased Riviera and Grand Floridian early last year .
That said, I fail to see why I should or would care about someone renting out points as a business. The resorts only have so many points to be sold and some held by Disney so it isn't like it can be "overbooked". It's a timeshare so it isn't like living at home and my neighbor uses the house next door as an AirBNB and I've got different people sleeping there every night. DVC is a hotel so everyone to everyone else is essentially a stranger.

Why should I care or find it comforting that these commercial reservations will slow or stop? I saw on other forums comments like "about time", "thank goodness" and "I should thank the board" but as of right now, I don't understand why I would care. Can someone with greater experience shed some light on why this is important?

EDIT: ohohoh, I forgot to give Sandi credit for a good summation.

No matter how one feels, we should care that the product we bought is being used by all of us in the manner is was intended.

We should want DVCMC to enforce the terms of if.

And, while we are allowed to rent reservations on our membership, we are not allowed to rent to the degree that the motive is no longer for vacations but to make money.

And there are people who have bought a ton of points for that purpose.

These mega point owners take advantage of the system.

I personally don’t care about the rental market, and what others do.

But I do support DVC cracking down to ensure the level of rentals any owners are doing are in line with the terms.

We are allowed to rent but can’t be doing it in such a way that it looks like you are a commercial enterprise.

Just due to the sheer size of the DVc memberships, there will always be thousands of rentals on a regular basis, but owners shouldn’t be adding to that by renting well above what they should be renting.

Now, it’s still up to the board to determine what that looks like and there are a wide range of opinions on what they hope enforcement will look like.

That’s where we are at.

Unless you or they are trying to book the most affected resorts, you probably won't care.

That is, until time goes on and it begins to affect your own vacation planning. Sandi may just sell and move to the next best and brightest option, maybe the 2042 Boardwalk on the Riviera (made up future resort).

Right now Riviera isn't sold out and there is a future issue that may come up at that resort. Resale buyers of Riviera (and direct buyers) currently can get pretty much whatever they want. Down the road this may get really tight as the percentage of resale buyers increases and more of the owners have to book (or rent out) Riviera and will either want to stay during the popular times or rent out during the most popular times. Won't be long.

My 25 years of Boardwalk ownership has gone by in a flash. And 2042 is coming for me (us) and it won't matter anymore if I have to take Boardwalk View instead of Resort View. The problem will move to other targets.

Anyway, I can hear the yowls now when the long time Riviera people start saying 'I can't get a room!' They are all being commercially rented!

Won't be as much as an issue at SSR, BLT, Poly, VGF.

Anyway, the issue affects some and not all but over your lifetime usage you may not be immune, so it's probably best to hope for the fairest standards to be upheld and for our DVC management to do their job. I'm just moving to the next available rooms that I like because I have lots of choices right now and less years to worry about left in my 4 2042 contracts which may terminate about the same time I do.

 

[Cfabar1]

The only lounge I have used with my Venture X thst has had crowds is Terminal 4 @ JFK…and that was during late afternoons when those international flyers were getting their first night flights.

Even the ones at MCO have never been crowded to capacity

The MCO sky club yesterday morning on the other hand, was an absolute zoo! It was recently expanded, and it was nevertheless unlike something I have never seen before... Lines for food were so long... Lines for drinks were long... And they recently expanded it too!

 

[Cfabar1]

The changing demographics of DVC membership and the Disney-traveling public means studios are just more in demand these days than they were when resorts like Boardwalk were designed. So yes, these rooms will always probably be a tough booking. That's just how it is.

Poly is going to be the new test of that theory... VGF most of the time seems to work just fine for 1 BR and 2 BR owners... despite the studio-heavy approach...

Frankly with the way the points charts are going, the market for larger units is becoming smaller and smaller... The initial buy-in becomes prohibitive for too many families trying to book a week in a 2 BR, so they say a studio should be just fine - after all we stay in a hotel room already.