DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[lowlight]

If the goal of this change is to stop large commercial renters, I am not sure this is going to work. DVC allows LLC to buy points and setting up a LLC is dirt cheap, like as cheap as $40. Won't a commercial renter just setup a LLC, run it till caught, shut it down, then start up another one?

That seems like fraud maybe. Intentionally violating and circumventing the rules of a contract?

 

[kilik64]

I give reservations away for free!!

So...uh... where does one sign up for these free reservations?

 

[VGCgroupie]

But I think we are now talking about two different things.

Should an owner who need to occasionally rent be barred from renting a popular room vs should DVC stop commercial renters?

If I decide I need to rent one year some of my points, should I be prevented from renting certain rooms?

I think that’s where I differ. I simply do not want to see DVC now telling owners who have the right to rent that certain rooms are off limits if they are not renting frequently or regularly.

I really am hopeful DVC won’t.

No I am not talking about an owner booking a room and then renting because they need to. I am specifically talking about people who use a majority or all of their points to rent and they book popular rooms and dates because it’s the most profitable.

I am 100% okay with having the ability to rent. I am happy Disney is going after commercial renters. I have rented and will rent in the future and I have zero worry because I know my renting is not commercial.

If could post screenshots here I would to show people that this a very real problem.

 

[Sandisw]

If the goal of this change is to stop large commercial renters, I am not sure this is going to work. DVC allows LLC to buy points and setting up a LLC is dirt cheap, like as cheap as $40. Won't a commercial renter just setup a LLC, run it till caught, shut it down, then start up another one?

Havin watched the DVCFan video on this topic, Paul even talked about some rental companies that encouraged individual owners to do spec rentals. So even if the commercial renters are all gone, owners who just want to do 1 or 2 rentals are still going to do spec rentals if they want to maximize their rental income.

If the pain point for owners is seeing confirmed reservations available for rent while they can't book the same room, then what would stop that? Not being allowed to change leads on reservations? Limiting the number of changes so the reservations can't be walked forever till a renter is found?

The contract has language about that. IIRC, LLCs are limited to board members and employees to use the membership.

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that renting on an LLC can very easily stopped. I’ll see if I can find it!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Yes. As I said before I am fine if another owner gets a room. I am not okay with people who buy contracts with the sole intent of renting rooms for profit. Not sure how any member would be okay with that. Do you rent your points?

They are owners too. BOTS may have changed things but to me it doesn't matter much because there always has been and always will be more demand and not enough supply of the low point and scarce category rooms. The thoughts it will become easier to book them are pipe dreams as it's never been the case. It's also hyperbole when some state that you can't book at 11 months when actuality is that you weren't able to book that high demand room.

Outside of Covid I have done very little renting. My husband was diagnosed with cancer during COVID and with the suppressed immune system could not risk any travel and during that time I rented 100% of our points. Normal use is by myself, traveling with family or friends. That ability to rent was a plus in my purchasing decision of DVC as is anything that makes it flexible IMO even though I wasn't purchasing with the intent to rent.

The other part to be clear on is that DVC isn't doing this for owners benefits. They are doing it for their own gain whether it is simply hopeful or will pan out for them.

 

[Sandisw]

So...uh... where does one sign up for these free reservations?

Hahahah! Yeah, part of owning 900 was to share it with family and friends! Makes me happy and I don’t feel right taking money!!

Now that I am on to my newest career venture, my use of DVC might not be as frequent!!!

 

[Galun]

If the goal of this change is to stop large commercial renters, I am not sure this is going to work. DVC allows LLC to buy points and setting up a LLC is dirt cheap, like as cheap as $40. Won't a commercial renter just setup a LLC, run it till caught, shut it down, then start up another one?

1). It’d make it really inconvenient for them if they have to setup a new LLC every time.

2). Disney may cancel a reservation last minute, and the rental company brand behind those multiple LLCs will be ruined. Starting new LLCs won’t matter if they have to rebuild their branding.

 

[VGCgroupie]

They are owners too. BOTS may have changed things but to me it doesn't matter much because there always has been and always will be more demand and not enough supply of the low point and scarce category rooms. The thoughts it will become easier to book them are pipe dreams as it's never been the case. It's also hyperbole when some state that you can't book at 11 months when actuality is that you weren't able to book that high demand room.

Outside of Covid I have done very little renting. My husband was diagnosed with cancer during COVID and with the suppressed immune system could not risk any travel and during that time I rented 100% of our points. Normal use is by myself, traveling with family or friends. That ability to rent was a plus in my purchasing decision of DVC as is anything that makes it flexible IMO even though I wasn't purchasing with the intent to rent.

The other part to be clear on is that DVC isn't doing this for owners benefits. They are doing it for their own gain whether it is simply hopeful or will pan out for them.

We can agree to disagree on all fronts.

I don’t believe Disney did this just because they want the rental market.

I don’t agree with “they are owners too”

 

[mistysue]

People are absolutely not being locked out of their home resorts at 11m, they just may not be availability in a certain view category.

IMO rental spec booking during the home resort window is obviously done with a profit maximization motive and harms the membership experience overall. People who do it regularly should have heightened commercial scrutiny.

Nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

I was on today at 8:12 am. Every WDW resort had availability to book rooms. Only one resort was booked for studios.

Now, some of the lower cost views were gone.

And, thst aligns with the first serve nature of the contract.

DVC should find a way to stop bots being used.

I just want to point out that the notion that anyone is being completely shut out of booking their WDW at 11 months is simply not true.

Do those who are commercially renting book high demand rooms? Yes.

Are they they only ones booking those rooms? No

So, stopping commercial renters may help increase a chance but is it going to be meaningful enough that every owner who wants a BW resort view studio will get it now without an issue?

I am still of the belief that regardless of what rooms a commercial renter is taking, the enforcement should be the same if that owner has indeed demonstrated they are violating that aspect of the contract.

Again, nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

I agree no resorts are fully sold out a 11 months.
A specific room type - sure, but the entire resort? No way.

Nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

We know that owners are getting those rooms and not all are being rented.

So, how do you see your chances are much better when there are still 5 studios?

Let’s say 3 out of 5 go to a commercial renter vis bots but now they won’t.

The change is 3 additional AKV owners are getting them. But how many AKV owners are trying is day for those 5 rooms?

That isn’t going to change. So, if 100 owners are trying lfor the rooms then you have 5% chance of getting them. If it’s 200 people every morning, then you have a 2.5% chance.

At least let’s be honest and realistic in terms of the impact.

The flip side is that if the notion is that without the commercial renters these will be easier to book, you may have more AKV owners trying who don’t ever bother now.

Obviously owners who are clearly in it as a business to maximize profits try and grab them…

But cutting them out does not mean people who want low cost rooms will be able to get them without issue.

Just to repeat, People are saying there are an awful lot of "hard to get rooms" that we are completely blocked out of that are available for rent by companies walking and using bots to keep them off limits to the rest of us. It's making no sense for any of these responses to be "people aren't blocked out of entire resorts" as if that is addressing the same issue.

Why it matters that certain rooms are always gone? If 100 owners lose out on a room type, all 100 of them are likely to try again for their next trip. If 95 lose out, that's 5 fewer people compounding the next cycle. Obviously the numbers aren't an exact science like that, but bots that snatch up desirable rooms cause a snowballing effect of people trying harder each time to get those rooms, causing overflow into other room types, which makes everyone's experience harder and makes the pixie dust of randomly finding something hard to get while it's available less likely.

 

[pzw90]

Well well well, how the turntables have turned. So interesting to see a bunch of new names (or old dormant ones) crawl out of the woodwork to sway public opinion with tales about indigent grandmothers who need to rent thousands of points for “a few years” to save their great great grandpappy’s farm home from repossession.

I told myself I’d do a mountain climber for every time someone said “clamping down on rentals won’t affect room availability” and now my arms are so weak I can barely type. Just waiting for the “well a 2BR theme park view is available at 11 months, nobody promised you a room type” to start and maybe I’ll finally be able to button my college jeans again.

I imagine things will move swiftly from here on out, but Redweek has trended up in rental listings since the announcement, not down, so fear doesn’t seem to be a rapid motivator.

If you looked at the deep discounts Disney is giving on rooms (2026 is free kids dining and 40% off a villa during spring break?), this was inevitable and likely won’t be pleasant for the offenders. Nobody steals from the mouse.

I’m enjoying seeing some users come out of the rental/transfer board and proving they can contribute more to the community beyond just “Bump”

 

[VGCgroupie]

I am solidly curious who here is actually okay with people renting a majority of their points simply for profit?

People are freaking out because DVD didnt put a specific number or % on it. That’s for a reason. People in it for profit will find a way to skirt those parameters.

Have a little faith DVD isn’t out to screw their members who are doing things the right way. If you think that they are out to do that why keep your contract and keep going to Disney? If I thought they were trying to screw me over I’d be done with them.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

Again, nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

Nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

Sounds like you hate renters AND straw men...

Next, you'll be claiming no one is saying that all renting will now be prohibited.

 

[mistysue]

Sounds like you hate renters AND straw men...

Next, you'll be claiming no one is suggesting that all renting will now be prohibited.

Sums it up nicely.

 

[muppets3d]

Sometimes people intentionally mis-state their opponent's argument (it's called a strawman) because they refuse to face the facts of the situation for one reason or another. cui prodest? (who stands to gain?)

 

[VGCgroupie]

Sounds like you hate renters AND straw men...

Next, you'll be claiming no one is saying that all renting will now be prohibited.

You are on fire today.

 

[Sandisw]

No I am not talking about an owner booking a room and then renting because they need to. I am specifically talking about people who use a majority or all of their points to rent and they book popular rooms and dates because it’s the most profitable.

I am 100% okay with having the ability to rent. I am happy Disney is going after commercial renters. I have rented and will rent in the future and I have zero worry because I know my renting is not commercial.

If could post screenshots here I would to show people that this a very real problem.

I don’t think anyone is doubting that very popular rooms are being targeted by commercial renters. We know they are.

But some believe that if the commercial renters are stopped, that the availability of some of those same rooms will all of a sudden be easier or thst your average owner won’t choose to rent a popular room occasionally.

I do realize that some would love to see DVC scour rental sites and then try to find the owners.

I don’t see them spending the money to do that when they have access to all owners account and can simply review those with a high number of reservations.

I really believe that what this move is about is giving them more documentation to support a decision taken against an owner.

And, it’s probably doing what they wanted it to do…cause owners to rethink their renting habits.

Some will change them, and if DVC does what they said they wanted to do…go after those clearly using memberships for commercial purposes because those owners have amassed a large amount of points…I’d bet that will be enough for them to prove they acted.

 

[Sandisw]

Nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

Again, nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.

Nobody is saying people are blocked out of entire resorts.


Just to repeat, People are saying there are an awful lot of "hard to get rooms" that we are completely blocked out of that are available for rent by companies walking and using bots to keep them off limits to the rest of us. It's making no sense for any of these responses to be "people aren't blocked out of entire resorts" as if that is addressing the same issue.

Why it matters that certain rooms are always gone? If 100 owners lose out on a room type, all 100 of them are likely to try again for their next trip. If 95 lose out, that's 5 fewer people compounding the next cycle. Obviously the numbers aren't an exact science like that, but bots that snatch up desirable rooms cause a snowballing effect of people trying harder each time to get those rooms, causing overflow into other room types, which makes everyone's experience harder and makes the pixie dust of randomly finding something hard to get while it's available less likely.

But you did seem to imply yesterday that somehow the lack of specific rooms not available (30%?) meant it was an issue and impacting 11 month bookings for owners

If that wasn’t what your point was, then I misunderstood it.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I don’t think anyone is doubting that very popular rooms are being targeted by commercial renters. We know they are.

But some believe that if the commercial renters are stopped, that the availability of some of those same rooms will all of a sudden be easier or thst your average owner won’t choose to rent a popular room occasionally.

I do realize that some would love to see DVC scour rental sites and then try to find the owners.

I don’t see them spending the money to do that when they have access to all owners account and can simply review those with a high number of reservations.

I really believe that what this move is about is giving them more documentation to support a decision taken against an owner.

And, it’s probably doing what they wanted it to do…cause owners to rethink their renting habits.

Some will change them, and if DVC does what they said they wanted to do…go after those clearly using memberships for commercial purposes because those owners have amassed a large amount of points…I’d bet that will be enough for them to prove they acted.

Maybe it will help availability maybe it won’t. But even if it won’t that doesn’t mean they should let the commercial renting continue. People are just stating how they feel when they can’t get a room they need, logically one would be mad if commercial renting was still happening and dvc was doing nothing about it.

 

[maui22]

One thing not mentioned is how much of the perceived scarcity has been brought about by DVC decisions, some often attributed to member feedback. Multiple room view categories that have a small number of rooms in each. Adding a 5th sleep surface to many of the older resorts while leaving the 1BR's at 4. Allowing new owners to buy in at 50 points. And probably another couple that aren't immediately coming to mind.

When we first bought (BLT 2009 before it opened), really didn't pay attention to number of rooms in views, sizes, etc.

WDW properties (not referencing views). Only looking at studios/1BR.

• BLT has 147 studios and 147 1BRs.
• VGF - OG had 47 studios and 47 1BRs. Since then, BPK was added and actually helps the % of owners who want a studio size room. I think BPK added 200 resort/hotel studio size rooms. Now 1BR and 2BR may not have enough supply vs demand.
• PVB was the first resort since we purchased to really go after the studio supply problem (but it had no 1BRs). OG - 360 studios, 20 bungalows. Pretty extreme.
  Island Tower adds duos, studios, 1BRs, and a small number of dedicated 2BRs. Feels like this resort will be unlike others and have a supply/demand problem where 1BR and 2BR are too limited compared to studios?
• CCV - 36 studio and 36 1BR
• RIV - not sure the breakdown but I think it's about 10-20% more studios than 1BRs.
• CFW sometimes referred to as glorified studios (similar size, but kitchen and separate sleeping areas but doesn't have the toilet/shower/sink plus sink/shower that some of the studios (VGF, PVB, ???) have.

This might even explain why BPK was added to existing VGF and also why IT was added to PVB association. They have been attempting to fix the problem, but did it at two of the highest point resorts.

CFW was attempt at a more point friendly option to help the studio (or glorified studio) supply problem.

 

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

This thread is moving way too fast for me
I think I'll just come back when there's more than the checkbox to discuss