DVC T &C Personal Use - Only Thread to Discuss!

[Duckbug.Ducktales]

I was thinking about the extended family members, that you may not want to have access to the points in your contract making reservations that you didn't authorize.

Yes, this won't work for everyone, as @AstroBlasters pointed out. In my case, my mother wouldn't even know who to call or how to make anything happen for reservations, lol.

I would just reiterate that the only thing that has happened is a checkbox and I think we don't need to worry about anything yet.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

And to add, DVC limited the number of associates years ago to prefer brokers from being on too many to make reservations for rentals.

I believe they limited the number of memberships a single associate could be on. ie, David could not be on 200+ memberships.

 

[Momtomouselover]

I own a small DVC contract and didn’t plan on traveling this year. A few months before summer some family members wanted to go and convinced me to come as well. Knowing that getting a 7 day long reservation would be challenging with only about 4 months until our travel dates I started frequenting (as in daily) both the DVC page and rental sites plus aggregators. Over that time I noticed rooms becoming available on DVC then nearly immediately being posted on rental pages. I have to say that this experience makes me believe that large scale rental outfits and frequent renters are indeed effecting availability to the detriment of everyday DVC owners.

 

[Sandisw]

That’s the issue. DVC gets to decide what is and what isn’t renting.

DVC can only see that the owner is not on the reservation. If you have 2 reservations in your name, 5 in your family and 7 rentals. Nothing stops DVC from says all 12 is rentals.

shouldn’t all owners regardless of type be treated equally? Ie if a 200 points owner is allowed to rent all points but the 4000 points owner is not, then owners aren’t equal.

I think what most are worried about is that DVC in the beginning is targeting ie large points owners with 4.000 points most are fine with that. Then gradually lowering the bar to 1.000 points and then to 500 and so on. Where does it stop?

I don’t think the rules need to be exaclty the same because it is all relative to a membership.

IMO, this isn’t about renting vs. not renting…it is about and the new lanauge seems to point to is what level of renting an owner is doing that gives DVC the impression the motivation of that owner is not for vacation purposss but rather as a business.

A 200 point owner renting half, which covers the dues is simply not taking in the same level of profit that someone with 4000 points is by renting at least half of it.

What is now clear is that DVC does not consider frequent and regular renting to be acceptable under the personal use clause.

But, frequent and regular can be as broad or as narrow as they want…under one caveat, they need to make it reasonable and in line with the FL law.

Now, they could decide to not and make owners fight.

But I am taking the approach that DVC wants to make it reasonable and enforcement that balances this being a product owners can use and rent when things arise but at the same time prevent owners for buying points for the sole purpose of renting as a business.

We shall see.

 

[Brian Noble]

shouldn’t all owners regardless of type be treated equally?

That is not a requirement. Whether it should be or not doesn't matter.

DVC in the past has given a specific number and I was more than happy to follow their rules and live within that number. I view it now as them changing the rules mid game, but not saying what the rules actually are

You are correct. That's precisely what happened, and it was done on purpose. After all, it is Disney's game, and the governing documents make that clear. Heck, we can't even vote in the BOD elections for the resorts at which we own!

 

[Jperiod]

Ugh, I just found out. I wish they would let us sell part of a contract. Their ticket prices have more than doubled since we bought VGC. We simply can't afford to go as long anymore so renting the extra points makes the smaller trip feasible. I had to rent out all of last year's because our trip dates changed last minute and I'm renting out most of this year's too.

What's the worst that can happen if we're targeted? Force us to sell? Can they take away our membership without any compensation?

 

[mistysue]

This is where I believe there is a disconnect.

Members assign their inability to get certain rooms to commercial renting and walking instead of just supply/demand. Especially the SAP 7m crowd.

To some extent, it is absolutely affecting the ability to get many reservations. All of them? No, and I have not seen anyone suggest that it is ALL due to renting. The bigger disconnect is that these conversations keep turning to people insisting that if it's not ALL of them, than it's not affecting ANY of them, which are two opposite ends of a wide spectrum the true answer falls into the middle of.

When you are up every morning for weeks trying to break in to get a reservation for a certain week and can't even get your foot in the door to walk it - then can find the room for rent easily, already booked as a 1-2 night reservation, from a broker who has every single difficult night booked in little short blocks and obviously used a bot to accomplish it... it's changing how the system works for everyone because the one night blips add up. If there are only 5 of a room and 2 of them are being rented and that's a common ratio, that is changing how owners can use their points across the board. Now the owner who didn't get to use it this Fall is going to try again next Spring, fail again... and be competing next Fall with newcomers, themselves, and now the other person who failed in the Spring, it also creates pent up demand because people want it more when they keep failing and can never get in. Otherwise a lot of people say "been there, I'll try a different one" - but if they never got in... they keep trying and failing time after time. It snowballs.

 

[LRdismom]

My two cents. This HAD to happen to keep direct sales moving. Who is going to drop $30k, $40k, $50k on a direct contract if the word is out that it is next to impossible to snag reservations outside of your home resort at peak times of year? Or even AT YOUR OWN resort if you haven’t pre planned your trip a year+ in advance? The commercial renters who snap up rooms, precluding regular DVC goers from snagging reservations for last minute or 4 month out trips, etc. were driving down the desirability of the product.

This. Many people have asked for my advice on DVC, and I've dissuaded them from buying. They think that it'll be easy to book the rooms they've rented/reserved in the past and I tell them that it's very difficult to get the rooms they desire. I don't know if these changes will make things much easier, but this is a great point.

 

[AstroBlasters]

To some extent, it is absolutely affecting the ability to get many reservations. All of them? No, and I have not seen anyone suggest that it is ALL due to renting. The bigger disconnect is that these conversations keep turning to people insisting that if it's not ALL of them, than it's not affecting ANY of them, which are two opposite ends of a wide spectrum the true answer falls into the middle of.

When you are up every morning for weeks trying to break in to get a reservation for a certain week and can't even get your foot in the door to walk it - then can find the room for rent easily, already booked as a 1-2 night reservation, from a broker who has every single difficult night booked in little short blocks and obviously used a bot to accomplish it... it's changing how the system works for everyone because the one night blips add up. If there are only 5 of a room and 2 of them are being rented and that's a common ratio, that is changing how owners can use their points across the board. Now the owner who didn't get to use it this Fall is going to try again next Spring, fail again... and be competing next Fall with newcomers, themselves, and now the other person who failed in the Spring, it also creates pent up demand because people want it more when they keep failing and can never get in. Otherwise a lot of people say "been there, I'll try a different one" - but if they never got in... they keep trying and failing time after time. It snowballs.

But even if the 2 that are spec rented are pulled from the equation, the majority of people trying to book the room will still not be able to because there are only 5 and MANY more than that trying to book it.

I’m all for banning spec renting, but IMO it would not fundamentally change things for most owners.

 

[mistysue]

But even if the 2 that are spec rented are pulled from the equation, the majority of people trying to book the room will still not be able to because there are only 5 and MANY more than that trying to book it.

Over time it would make a difference because there wouldn't be as much pent up FOMO demand from people who get a chance to try it out. If now only 3 owners a year get in, if it became 5 the room wouldn't be as hard to get. And you would be far more likely to get it at human speeds 11 months out.

ETA- inability to book at 11 months minus 1 day is very different from inability to book at 11 months out for years in a row.

 

[Sandisw]

Who is renting out AKL points for $9 or whatever the current rate is? Everyone I see on this site's rental board is at $17 or more per point, substantially higher than the cost of dues. How is that not for profit

Again, renting any reservation is going to create a profit.

That is not the standard with the contract. The standard is whether renting is happening in such a way that DVC has decided the purpose of that membership is more commercial than personal.

And, we know that some level of renting is allowed within the personal use clause.

So, where is DVC going to draw the line? Are they going to look at that 1000 point owner who may be renting 500 points every year to pay for the dues and thus vacation for free and an owners whose reason for owning is commercial?

We know that using it for yourself and others at the same time…multiple reservations… counts as personal use …letting family and friends use it occasionally without you…counts as personal use .

We know that frequent and regular renting or sale of reservations is not considered personal use.

What rises to the level of frequent and regular is up to DVC.

They could say that frequent and regular is based on a three year cycle. They could make it a % of ones membership…it could be something none of us even think of.

That’s why the whole world “profit” is tough in this discussion because if the law and the contract allow for at least some rental….then anyone who rents even one reservation has made some.

DVCs own words imply they are not looking at profit per se but rather the frequency and regularity in which they see an owner booking for others.

ETA: To me it’s like having a garage sale. If I have every weekend, then I’m doing it as a business. If I have one occasionally, I am not.

 

[Sandisw]

I believe they limited the number of memberships a single associate could be on. ie, David could not be on 200+ memberships.

That was what I was trying to say.

 

[Sandisw]

I've brought this up here in the past on these boards before, but what do we think about a guest certificate system? Absent any further or more stringent efforts from DVC to curb commercial renters, I would think an aggressively priced guest certificate system--say, 2 free guest certificates per UY for when the member or associates are not on the reservation, then priced at $100 and progressively increasing for each additional guest certificate--could discourage commercial renting.

If the current rules/structures make it difficult to curb commercial renting, then let the market decide. Once the 4th+ guest certificate comes in at say $400, it will be difficult for commercial owners to simply pass those costs along to the renter. The delta between rack rates and DVC rentals are getting tighter as it is with AP/locals/disney+/[insert promo] discounts, so something like this could effectively kill commercial renting without resorting to potentially endless legal battles. And I wouldn't mind if such guest certificate fees be treated similar to breakage income as a revenue component on the dues statement (but who are we kidding, we know DVC will gladly pocket that extra money).

I'm sure that implementing such a system would require some rules changes, but other timeshare systems implement guest certificate systems and seem to enforce "no rentals" policies better than DVC. I know there are detractors to such a system because they often gift out stays to friends and family, but perhaps if you're giving out more than two reservations a year, maybe consider adding them as associate members.

I am personally not for any rules changes that make it less flexible for an owner to use their membership for themselves and/or with family and friends.

I want a simple and easy system that lets the majority of the owners who buy to vacation to outweigh those handful of owners who bought for the sole purpose to rent as a business.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Ugh, I just found out. I wish they would let us sell part of a contract. Their ticket prices have more than doubled since we bought VGC. We simply can't afford to go as long anymore so renting the extra points makes the smaller trip feasible. I had to rent out all of last year's because our trip dates changed last minute and I'm renting out most of this year's too.

What's the worst that can happen if we're targeted? Force us to sell? Can they take away our membership without any compensation?

If you dont own 500 VGC points and aren't renting all 500 every single year you are fine.

 

[AstroBlasters]

This. Many people have asked for my advice on DVC, and I've dissuaded them from buying. They think that it'll be easy to book the rooms they've rented/reserved in the past and I tell them that it's very difficult to get the rooms they desire. I don't know if these changes will make things much easier, but this is a great point.

How many room types are not available at 11m out from today?

I just went and looked at it 27 room types (with a lot of those being 2 bedroom lockoffs being double counted where a dedicated 2 bedroom was available).

This is mainly a low inventory studio problem at a handful of resorts created by point charts.

Are these rooms really the reason that most buyers are buying into DVC? If so, then IMO maybe DVC ownership shouldn’t be for them.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Ugh, I just found out. I wish they would let us sell part of a contract. Their ticket prices have more than doubled since we bought VGC. We simply can't afford to go as long anymore so renting the extra points makes the smaller trip feasible. I had to rent out all of last year's because our trip dates changed last minute and I'm renting out most of this year's too.

What's the worst that can happen if we're targeted? Force us to sell? Can they take away our membership without any compensation?

They can cancel the reservations made for non-owners above a threshold. Whether you use the points or not would be up to you. They “are unlikely to” force you to sell.

 

[muppets3d]

This. Many people have asked for my advice on DVC, and I've dissuaded them from buying. They think that it'll be easy to book the rooms they've rented/reserved in the past and I tell them that it's very difficult to get the rooms they desire. I don't know if these changes will make things much easier, but this is a great point.

Unless they're routinely renting value studios at AKL or something, I don't think that's really true.

 

[VGCgroupie]

ETA: To me it’s like having a garage sale. If I have every weekend, then I’m doing it as a business. If I have one occasionally, I am not.

I like this analogy. My town makes us get a permit to do one that way they know you aren't using a garage sale as a business..

 

[Sandisw]

Ugh, I just found out. I wish they would let us sell part of a contract. Their ticket prices have more than doubled since we bought VGC. We simply can't afford to go as long anymore so renting the extra points makes the smaller trip feasible. I had to rent out all of last year's because our trip dates changed last minute and I'm renting out most of this year's too.

What's the worst that can happen if we're targeted? Force us to sell? Can they take away our membership without any compensation?

No…they will simply cancel reservations on your membership if they determine you appear to be using your membership for commercial use vs renting within the scope of the personal use clause.

 

[muppets3d]

It seems that DVC has only just started to take a look at renting because interest in the parks and experiences has cooled. Nothing has really changed with renting. DVC owners have complained about the big time brokers snapping up all the in-demand room types and seasons for years now. Sales of new resorts have slowed, even on the monorail loop. DCL is even discounting cruises now. The revenge travel bubble is officially over, at least as far as Disney is concerned.