DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[DL1WDW2]

Ultimately it can also be spun and with reasonable acceptance:
This unprecedented times has resulted in Point Chart Rebalance for the next 2 years.
I think it is good to keep the conversation going to alert them we are counting our points very closely...

 

[mlayman7]

I am ready to help in any way. We bought more points than needed with the thought that they could potentially raise points during our regular travel dates. We also figured this would mean a decrease of points needed during other travel dates. This was clearly made aware to us by our guide and that is how we read our agreement as well. They have raised points during our travel period but they did not decrease points elsewhere. The most important thing needed is to make as many members aware of this as possible. Make this an issue on every disboard forum, post about it in DVC fan, etc. This will keep getting worse if nothing is done.

 

[drusba]

This seems to suggest that it really doesn’t matter what the true demand is of owners once charts have been created.

If we should not infer that leveling means they can eliminate them, then I don’t think we should infer they are fixed when nothing says that once determined, they can not be changed.


As you said, we won’t all agree and as owners we have to do our own homework. My biggest suggestion to everyone is to call and get first hand explanations of it all.

Think of it this way. DVCM is not supposed to be able to do any act that can increase total points In any year that the resort is a DVC Resort. Once the intial point chart is created, any increase for any year thereafter is supposed to occur only as the natural result of changes in the calendar per year.

However, even if DVCM were allowed to make only minor changes in seasons, such a change would likely result in some year (or years) having higher total points than would otherwise have resulted under the charts with the originally created seasons. For example, just take a 2020 point chart for BCV and switch Feb 1 from dream to adventure season and Sep 1 from adventure to dream season. The result will be that in some year or years Sep 1 will be on a weekend while Feb 1 will not, making the total points for that year somewhat higher than they otherwise would have been for that same year if the two dates had not switched seasons.

Thus, no one should concede that DVCM can change seasons under any circumstances. In discussions with DVC, we need to point out that there is nothing in the POS that agrees with DVC's claim that it can do acts that actually raise total points in many years and nothing that says DVCM can create a point chart with new seasons that does exactly that. In fact, as far we can can tell from the POS, once the original point charts are created for a resort, DVCM has no power to do any act that would raise total points for any calendar year thereafter. The only event that can result in an increase in total points is the naturally occurring Increases that might result from changes in the yearly calendars. DVCM's right is solely to be able to respond to demand changes by raising points for some nights in a Vacation Home as it equally lowers them in other nights, an act, which by definition, does not result in an increase of total points.

 

[sethschroeder]

@i<3riviera

I know you collected a large number of point charts for varying years. Have you leveraged to make a total points per year chart of what the total points for each year with that years point chart?

 

[Sandisw]

Think of it this way. DVCM is not supposed to be able to do any act that can increase total points In any year that the resort is a DVC Resort. Once the intial point chart is created, any increase for any year thereafter is supposed to occur only as the natural result of changes in the calendar per year.

However, even if DVCM were allowed to make only minor changes in seasons, such a change would likely result in some year (or years) having higher total points than would otherwise have resulted under the charts with the originally created seasons. For example, just take a 2020 point chart for BCV and switch Feb 1 from dream to adventure season and Sep 1 from adventure to dream season. The result will be that in some year or years Sep 1 will be on a weekend while Feb 1 will not, making the total points for that year somewhat higher than they otherwise would have been for that same year if the two dates had not switched seasons.

Thus, no one should concede that DVCM can change seasons under any circumstances. In discussions with DVC, we need to point out that there is nothing in the POS that agrees with DVC's claim that it can do acts that actually raise total points in many years and nothing that says DVCM can create a point chart with new seasons that does exactly that. In fact, as far we can can tell from the POS, once the original point charts are created for a resort, DVCM has no power to do any act that would raise total points for any calendar year thereafter. The only event that can result in an increase in total points is the naturally occurring Increases that might result from changes in the yearly calendars. DVCM's right is solely to be able to respond to demand changes by raising points for some nights in a Vacation Home as it equally lowers them in other nights, an act, which by definition, does not result in an increase of total points.

I simply do not agree. But, as I said earlier, I advise everyone to talk directly to them,, share ones own understanding and agree/disagree with them based on that.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Personally, I believe the seasons have no legal meaning and are just there to make organizing and communicating the point charts more easily. I think as long as they don't move things by more than 20% one year, and keep point totals even, and do not go above certain specified unit point amounts (eg in BLT you have to be able to rent a studio for 16 points at least one day every year), then they can do almost anything else.

I think the season argument is plausible, and if I were litigating this for members I would bring it up, but it would be a secondary argument. And when discussing this with DVC management I would not push this point because I think they have easy answers for it, eg "It cannot be that we are not allowed to change the 5 seasons, because we are explicitly allowed to allocate points as if there are no seasons." I don't see a value in getting lost in that discussion.

We think the crux of the issue is the total points are increased from the declared and sold points.

Changing the seasons and base year (newly called "minimum year") are merely ways to give semi-plausible justifications for the increase, no different to DVCMC's last attempt at hiding the increase in the lockoff premium.

IMO our strongest argument is that total point inflation does not benefit the membership. The excuse offered to @zavandor of "members would be more upset by frequent chart changes, therefore we picked the worst possible year to maximally inflate points" would not stand if put to a membership vote.

A good sign is that they've changed their line regarding the Base Year. I think after telling people different versions about the Base Year (it changed, it didn't change, it's the same for all resorts, it's different for all resorts), they've realized the POS doesn't authorize them to change it. So they've invented the new concept of "minimum year" which is exactly the Base year but called in a different way.
I bet they know they're on shaky grounds with that.

I don't think last time they backtracked because of the clamour around the issue, we're a very vocal minority, but still a small minority among the 250k members, most of which had no idea what was happening. We did hit a weak spot on the legal foundations of the reallocation and they didn't want to risk to be challenged.

The second good sign is that in my last call they've told me they'll discuss the issue and come back to me. In 2019 they rolled back the changes after telling me they wouldn't do it.

And we've not fired all our ammos: I didn't discuss with them the latest findings by Drusba, if they tell me nothing will change it'll be another topic I'll talk about.
I'm ready to give them a bit of time before going to the next stage (the blog, posting on the Facebook groups, contacting the Florida regulators, even starting legal action), hopefully we won't have to go that far. In the meantime, it would be good to keep up the pressure. So anyone unhappy with the change should write to DVC and tell them so. It's quite simple, just use the email button on the members website.

Agree with this. Timeshare law enforces the minimum acceptable standards. Historically, DVC had reversed course when they dropped below higher cutoff points, like damaging net promoter scores or goodwill.

I'm not selling my contracts; not punishing myself for DVCMC's bad behaviour. I will be letting them know that they could have sold me 500 points direct, but decided to pinch 3.5 points/year instead.

Please take time to write to DVC to inform them that you have noticed the point inflation!

 

[Minniemoo15]

I'm a PVB owner with 300 points. That's ~4 nights in a studio over the life of my contract, that Disney can sell for cash. That's perhaps not exorbitant for an individual - though it's still wrong - but it really adds up across the total number of owners.

That's about 900,000 points across the lifetime of PVB. That's probably over $25mm transferred from owners to Disney's pocket given what Disney charges for cash bookings.

I’m a PVB owner as well (250 points). @i<3riviera helped me to see that in the new reallocated charts, the extra points in an average year would book 2.1 standard studios every day, year round. In the worst inflated year (2038) the extra points would book 3.3 standard studios every day, year round.

And this is year after year after year. When it is put this way it puts into perspective just how many points are being added to the system.

 

[Louis morrell]

I'm in. I just fired of an email expressing my concern.

 

[MickyLynn]

I have read this thread, however, I blew my internal math budget for the week trying to understand GameStop.
Is the point of all this basically that they moved points from season A which has 10 days, to season B which has 20 days, and therefore the extra 1 point per day that used to be 10 points is now 20 points?
I want to be helpful, and am willing to register my discontent. Is there a text we should be using, and to whom should it be directed? I own at OKW, if that's relevant.

 

[Brianstl]

i think you all ask for a copy of the response they give you in writing.

 

[cm8]

i think you all ask for a copy of the response they give you in writing.

It will never materialize......

 

[tgarre06]

As someone who has not yet bought into DVC but was planning to do so, this is very concerning to me. Buying into a timeshare is a dicey thing already, but I thought I would be able to trust Disney that the total number of points cannot change from year to year. This point inflation is sketchy, regardless of whether or not it is legal.

I’m feeling the same way. I was ready to buy, and now I’m putting on the brakes.

 

[Tiggerette]

It will never materialize......

Although there is the "Listening Post" section in the DVC magazine, so perhaps there's an indirect way of getting something in writing. The latest issue indirectly addresses another active thread on DISboard, reservation difficulty at 11mos window and cash stay.

 

[DL1WDW2]

When I brought up the marketing materials with DVCMC I was reminded that the owner agreement acknowledges that sales language (by way of guides or promotional materials) are non-binding. Disney has gone as far as to tell some members (can't find reference) that the PUC was considered material to aid with consumer understanding, but was also legally non-binding; I have trouble buying this last bit given it's one of the few things we actually sign acknowledging what we are buying.

Even armed with the language and charts upon charts of provided by i<3riviera, most of us have been either given the same canned, generic responses from management, told the base year version of "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." Or in zavandor's case, just straight up told there is no base year. What can we do?

I feel like the only thing that worked to affect any change with the 2020 point charts back in 2019 weren't the lengthy conversations people had with Yvonne, but rather the threat of some legal action, or at least potential legal action, on the part of a certain Italian Brit vis-a-vis https://www.whatswrongwithdvc.com/, or likely some correspondence you had with them.

What can we realistically do at this point? That's not a rhetorical question. Is there something actionable we can do? Or something new we can say? I'm at a loss for how to take this past the re-hashed excuses from 2019 about how DVCMC is simply working within their legal rights.

Thank you for this link. What is wrong with DVC...

 

[Louis morrell]

Here is the reply


We appreciate your interest in your Membership and taking the time to reach out to us. The feedback we receive from our Members is very important.

Each year the Disney Vacation Club Management LLC reviews nightly demand for villas at our resorts and looks for opportunities to adjust the Vacation Points Charts in order to encourage travel at all time of the year, with the goal of improving Member availability. With 7 seasons to choose from, the 2022 reallocation strategy builds upon the 2021 model to balance demand in seasons, including point increases to the Fall season and point decreases in the Summer season.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

This thread has been incredibly informative. I bought into DVC last year and am shocked to learn that they can pull this kind of stuff. Very disappointing. DVC is not acting in the best interest of its members at all by doing this stuff.

Being relatively knew to DVC compared to many of you, can you please clarify something for me? I was under the impression that each resort had a total number of points and that those points couldn't increase over time. For example, let's say Poly had a total of 2.5M points at the time it opened (that is just a made up number, btw). Once all of those points are sold, I thought that was it...the entire allotment of points was sold and the only way for DVC to sell more direct Poly points would be to exercise ROFR and then resell those points. But in reading other threads, it seems the total points for each resort has grown over the years. How is that possible? I mean, if the resort still has the same inventory of rooms how can DVC just create more points? I thought that goes agains the DVC contract?

I didn't know where to post this question, but is seemed appropriate to do so on this thread because it relates to this subject. If more points are being created and sold for a resort, it stands to reason that the point chart would start to increase as well. The only way I could see for points to be added to the total pool of points is if actual expansions to the resort room inventory occur. Am I thinking about this wrong and did I totally misunderstand the language in the contract?

 

[DVCSunDevil]

When I brought up the marketing materials with DVCMC I was reminded that the owner agreement acknowledges that sales language (by way of guides or promotional materials) are non-binding. Disney has gone as far as to tell some members (can't find reference) that the PUC was considered material to aid with consumer understanding, but was also legally non-binding; I have trouble buying this last bit given it's one of the few things we actually sign acknowledging what we are buying.

Even armed with the language and charts upon charts of provided by i<3riviera, most of us have been either given the same canned, generic responses from management, told the base year version of "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is." Or in zavandor's case, just straight up told there is no base year. What can we do?

I feel like the only thing that worked to affect any change with the 2020 point charts back in 2019 weren't the lengthy conversations people had with Yvonne, but rather the threat of some legal action, or at least potential legal action, on the part of a certain Italian Brit vis-a-vis https://www.whatswrongwithdvc.com/, or likely some correspondence you had with them.

What can we realistically do at this point? That's not a rhetorical question. Is there something actionable we can do? Or something new we can say? I'm at a loss for how to take this past the re-hashed excuses from 2019 about how DVCMC is simply working within their legal rights.

Funny you ask that question, because after reading this thread I think it is only a matter of time until legal action is brought against DVC. There is certainly a STRONG argument to be made from the DVC members side of things. And that's why people/entities take legal action: they feel wronged by the other party and things aren't made right. So they take legal action. It's only a matter of time, IMO.

 

[Louis morrell]

I think you misunderstood what happened here. They are not selling more points. Basically it will take more points to book the entire resort for a year than exist. That will cause rooms to not be booked by owners. These rooms will be rented out by Disney and they keep the profits from those rentals. Simplified explication but I think it outlines the basic idea.

 

[Leight19]

This thread has been incredibly informative. I bought into DVC last year and am shocked to learn that they can pull this kind of stuff. Very disappointing. DVC is not acting in the best interest of its members at all by doing this stuff.

Being relatively knew to DVC compared to many of you, can you please clarify something for me? I was under the impression that each resort had a total number of points and that those points couldn't increase over time. For example, let's say Poly had a total of 2.5M points at the time it opened (that is just a made up number, btw). Once all of those points are sold, I thought that was it...the entire allotment of points was sold and the only way for DVC to sell more direct Poly points would be to exercise ROFR and then resell those points. But in reading other threads, it seems the total points for each resort has grown over the years. How is that possible? I mean, if the resort still has the same inventory of rooms how can DVC just create more points? I thought that goes agains the DVC contract?

I didn't know where to post this question, but is seemed appropriate to do so on this thread because it relates to this subject. If more points are being created and sold for a resort, it stands to reason that the point chart would start to increase as well. The only way I could see for points to be added to the total pool of points is if actual expansions to the resort room inventory occur. Am I thinking about this wrong and did I totally misunderstand the language in the contract?

One thing I think you may be missing is they aren’t selling the extra points but are using the availability the extra points create to rent out extra vacant rooms that don’t get booked. Renting them is something they are allowed to do but doesn’t benefit us as they historically always max out revenue that goes to us from that source.
The way they justify it is the contract has language the point charts can’t go up across year except for normal calendar variation. Issue is the change to seasons makes the calendar variation more variable and they pick base year so they never have less then declared points so higher variability adds points to system at cost of membership interest (my understanding of thread to date).

 

[DVCSunDevil]

I think you misunderstood what happened here. They are not selling more points. Basically it will take more points to book the entire resort for a year than exist. That will cause rooms to not be booked by owners. These rooms will be rented out by Disney and they keep the profits from those rentals. Simplified explication but I think it outlines the basic idea.

I understand that part of it. It's complete (insert expletive). But I was interested in confirming that they can't sell more points for each resort. For example, BCV is listed as having a total pool of 3,027,092 total points. DVC can't just start selling more direct BCV points, correct? I am curious because I saw a DIS thread that showed BCV having 1,928,625 total points back when the MFs were announced in 2003. How could the total points for a resort increase? From my understanding, the total points for each resort are capped. That's what I wanted to confirm.