DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

As someone who has not yet bought into DVC but was planning to do so, this is very concerning to me. Buying into a timeshare is a dicey thing already, but I thought I would be able to trust Disney that the total number of points cannot change from year to year. This point inflation is sketchy, regardless of whether or not it is legal.
Agreed.

When I brought up on my call that my DVC guide and promotional materials stated that total points could not be increased, they said “oh that’s true, your guide was accurate. They meant total points SOLD cannot increase”. That was linguistic backflips if I ever heard it.
 
I reviewed the old thread dealing with the originally published 2020 point charts and their revision. It appears the revised 2020 point charts came out either late on January 25th 2019 or early (before 8:00 am) on January 26th 2019. Since no 2020 dates could be booked before 8:00 am on January 26th 2019, no reservations were made under the original point charts, and all reservations for 2020 were made under the revised point charts.
If there is no change to the 2022 point charts before 8:00 pm EST tomorrow, and members book January 1st 2022 tomorrow do you think that means the 2022 point charts can no longer be revised?
 
I reviewed the old thread dealing with the originally published 2020 point charts and their revision. It appears the revised 2020 point charts came out either late on January 25th 2019 or early (before 8:00 am) on January 26th 2019. Since no 2020 dates could be booked before 8:00 am on January 26th 2019, no reservations were made under the original point charts, and all reservations for 2020 were made under the revised point charts.
If there is no change to the 2022 point charts before 8:00 pm EST tomorrow, and members book January 1st 2022 tomorrow do you think that means the 2022 point charts can no longer be revised?
They might publish a new point chart that keeps January the same and reduces a bit other seasons.
I'm trying to remember, I think something happened in the past when they changed something and ended using their points to compensate for existing bookings, but I cannot remember exactly what it was.

Edit: I think it was Aulani. A unit removed to create a bar or something, the creation of the hotel room category or something like that. I cannot remember the details
 
As someone who has not yet bought into DVC but was planning to do so, this is very concerning to me. Buying into a timeshare is a dicey thing already, but I thought I would be able to trust Disney that the total number of points cannot change from year to year. This point inflation is sketchy, regardless of whether or not it is legal.
If you have a DVC Guide already, I would tell him or her that. Member complaints are one thing; lost sales due to member dissatisfaction is another one entirely.
 

This is the language in the Product Understanding Checklist for RIV..only one I have.

All it says is From time to time, the number of vacation points required to reserve a specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change. This reallocation occurs for various reasons, such as a change in the pattern of Members Usage.

Is that different from previous ones?

The one I do not have is Riviera. The ones I have limit increases to those caused by normal changes in the calendar from year to year. Examples:

BWV
"Except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year: [a] The total number of Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during the entire calendar year can never increase; If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease in another night or nights."

VGF is a little different but says the same thing:

"The total number of Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes each calendar year through January 31, 2064, can never increase unless more Vacation Homes are added to the plan, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year.

"If Vacation Homes for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease of another night or nights, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year."

As can be seen, the language limits increases to those caused by normal calendar changes. DVCM, as the Membership Agreements provide, can, as a result of seasonal demand changes, raise points for any given night in a vacation home but must lower them by the same amount for other nights, and thus cannot actually do any act that increases total annual points needed to reserve all the rooms.
 
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The one I do not have is Riviera. The ones I have limit increases to those caused by normal changes in the calendar from year to year. Examples:

BWV

"Except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year: [a] The total number of Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during the entire calendar year can never increase; If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease in another night or nights."

VGF is a little different but says the same thing:

"The total number of Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes each calendar year through January 31, 2064, can never increase unless more Vacation Homes are added to the plan, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year.

"If Vacation Homes for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease of another night or nights, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year."

As can be seen, the language limits increases to those caused by normal calendar changes. DVCM, as the Membership Agreements provide can raise points for any given night in a vacation home but must lower them for other nights by the same amount, and thus cannot actually do any act that increases total annual points needed to reserve all the rooms.


"

Thanks! Language for RIV product understanding checklist has definitely been changed. I wonder what. CCV looks like. Do you have that or know where it can be found?
 
The language I received for BLT in 2011 says (all bolded text is in the original):

9. Each DVC Resort Vacation Home is a assigned a nightly Vacation Point value, which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand.​

  • The total number of Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during each calendar year through January 31, 2060, can never increase, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year.
  • If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year.
  • Reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year, except under limited circumstances.
[Section 9 continues with a paragraph on special assistance in connection a first reservation that seems completely irrelevant to the rest of Section 9].​

"Vacation Home" is defined in the Offering Documents, which say "'Vacation Home' means and refers to those portions of a Unit designed and intended for separate use and occupancy."​

"'Unit' means a condominium unit as that term is defined in Chapter 718 and Article 5 of this Declaration and refers to that portion of the Condominium Property which is subject to exclusive ownership by one or more persons. Unless the context requires otherwise, and except with respect to the Vacation Ownership Plan and Club, all reference to 'Unit' shall include the Commercial Units."​
I think this is consistent with the other resorts above, and pretty clear. I specifically remember this representation as a key component to DVC membership.
 
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The language I received for BLT in 2011 says (all bolded text is in the original):

9. Each DVC Resort Vacation Home is a assigned a nightly Vacation Point value, which varies depending upon the season of use, location and the size of the Vacation Home. The number of Vacation Points required to reserve any specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change based on seasonal demand.​

  • The total number of Vacation Points required to use all Vacation Homes during each calendar year through January 31, 2060, can never increase, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year.
  • If Vacation Points for one specific night increase, it will be offset by a decrease on another night or nights, except for normal variations which occur in the calendar from year to year.
  • Reallocation cannot exceed 20% per calendar year, except under limited circumstances.
[Section 9 continues with a paragraph on special assistance in connection a first reservation that seems completely irrelevant to the rest of Section 9].​

"Vacation Home" is defined in the Offering Documents, which say "'Vacation Home' means and refers to those portions of a Unit designed and intended for separate use and occupancy."​

"'Unit' means a condominium unit as that term is defined in Chapter 718 and Article 5 of this Declaration and refers to that portion of the Condominium Property which is subject to exclusive ownership by one or more persons. Unless the context requires otherwise, and except with respect to the Vacation Ownership Plan and Club, all reference to 'Unit' include the Commercial Units."​
I think this is consistent with the other resorts above, and pretty clear. I specifically remember this representation as a key component to DVC membership.

Just to be clear..this is the product understanding checklist for BLT? If so, RIV was definitely changed to very simple terms.
 
Just to be clear..this is the product understanding checklist for BLT? If so, RIV was definitely changed to very simple terms.

The Product Understanding Checklist for PVB that I received in September 2019 (revised by Disney in 1/2019) for my add on states:

8. From time to time, the number of Vacation Points required to reserve a specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change. This "reallocation" occurs for various reasons, such as a change in the pattern of Member usage.

This is all I can find in the PUC regarding reallocations in my version. I wonder if it was different when PVB first opened in 2015...
 
Just to be clear..this is the product understanding checklist for BLT? If so, RIV was definitely changed to very simple terms.
Correct. Section 9 is from the Product Understanding Checklist for BLT; the definitions are from the BLT Component SIte Public Offering Statement.

Also FYI I edited the text above to add the word "shall" to the final sentence of the definition of Unit, which I inadvertently omitted.
 
The Product Understanding Checklist for PVB that I received in September 2019 (revised by Disney in 1/2019) for my add on states:

8. From time to time, the number of Vacation Points required to reserve a specific night in a particular Vacation Home may change. This "reallocation" occurs for various reasons, such as a change in the pattern of Member usage.

This is all I can find in the PUC regarding reallocations...

So, the PVB one seems to have the same language as RIV...which was also revised in 1/2019.

I wonder when it changed, That is the newest info I’d like to find.
 
Correct. Section 9 is from the Product Understanding Checklist for BLT; the definitions are from the BLT Component SIte Public Offering Statement.

Also FYI I edited the text above to add the word "shall" to the final sentence of the definition of Unit, which I inadvertently omitted.

Excellent! Trying to add the specifics to my info and this helps to get a timeline of when it changed.
 
Why have seasons at all... just assign a point cost to each day appropriately (historically busier days would be more than less popular days) so that the total doesn't change.
If they can do it for Park Tickets, I don't see why they couldn't do it for DVC Resorts.
They already do it in the booking calendar. Just make that the point chart. Every year could be made to balance to the exact same number of points.
Now that it is all online it would not matter if it took multiple pages to show all the room sizes and views.
552256
 
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Excellent! Trying to add the specifics to my info and this helps to get a timeline of when it changed.

While I don't have the history for confirmation, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it in January 2019. That was the time when the "Notorious 24" was successful in reversing the 2020 point charts. If DVD did it that month, it was most likely to cover themselves for the 2021 (and on) point chart increases.

My question is, can the PUC I sign for PVB in 9/19 be different than those who purchased when the resort first opened? Seems like the product shouldn't change and this whole thing just seems fishy.
 
While I don't have the history for confirmation, I wouldn't be surprised if they changed it in January 2019. That was the time when the "Notorious 24" was successful in reversing the 2020 point charts. If DVD did it that month, it was most likely to cover themselves for the 2021 (and on) point chart increases.

My question is, can the PUC I sign for PVB in 9/19 be different than those who purchased when the resort first opened? Seems like the product shouldn't change and this whole thing just seems fishy.

Personally, the PUC is a summary of the contract but it still says at the bottom of it to refer to the resort POS and multisite POS...so, I think those are still the ultimate guide into it all.

The PUC is to simply bringing forward things that are important enough that someone cannot accuse DVD of burying it in the fine print...at least that is how I viewed it when buying my direct contracts.
 
I've just had a call with DVC, with YC, head of Regulatory Affairs and a team leader who has been involved in the point reallocation.

Fasten seat belts.

They told me the Base Year doesn't exist. Or better, it is used only when the resort is created and the total number of points available for sale is calculated. Then the Base year is not used anymore for point reallocations. So the question if the Base Year has changed over time is meaningless, it hasn't changed because it's used only when the resort goes for sale. (this is also compatible with the fact that OKW and BWV don't have a BY mentioned in the POS).

They told me that when they do a reallocation they project the new point charts over the years, in order to find a minimum year and a maximum year, i.e. the years when the total number of points needed to book the resort is the lowest and highest. They have to ensure that the points for minimum year are not lower than the points sold (otherwise it would go against the Florida law) and that the points for the maximum year are not too much higher than the points sold. They said something about the difference being in the 0.2 - 0.4% range. [We know it's higher and I've told them]

I was speachless for a bit, because they've talked about a Base Year with a lot of people, of course some have reported here as well. They've admitted they've used the term improperly in the past and they now prefer to use the term "minimum year".
After the initial shock, I realized this didn't change much what was my thesys, actually it made it stronger.

What I told them is:
- DVC management company has a fiduciary duty toward the members, it must do their best interest
- the members have bought points that represent a reale estate interest and those points are used to book rooms. Point inflation is without a doubt against the interests of the members, so the DVCMC should do their best to minimize point inflation
- the DVCMC has all the rights to do point reallocations to balance demand; actually, they have to do it
- according to what they told me, the DVCMC is not bind by keeping a certain Base Year in doing the reallocations and they must just ensure the minimum year doesn't go lower than points sold and maximum year is not to much higher than point sold
THEN
- the DVCMC is allowed to do the reallocation using the current year as the minimum year. Every year they can recalculate the point charts to offset the change in weekends and holidays and have the points as close as possible to the points sold. This is the best way to both guarantee a demand balance and avoid point inflation.

If they're not bind in any other way (by law or by contract) to a certain Base year, then they can reallocate every year to guarantee zero or just a very little amount of point inflation.
I told them in 2022 SSR has over 35k extra points. Those are enough for a thousands or more nights that members won't be able to book. It's not enormous but it's not negligible. And those extra points do not benefit the members in any way, because the breakage created generates extra revenue for DVD, since the brekage income limit is already hit every year.

I don't think they were expecting this, their reply was (IMHO) weak.
The told me that they try to limit the amount of changes to the charts, because it might upset people if with a certain number of points someone can book 5 nights and then the next year it's 4 nights.
I replied that:
- because of point inflation people already can book fewer nights than before
- if they transparently explain why the point charts are adjusted every year (to offset calendar change) people would understand and not complain

I have also told them I think the current reallocation goes against the POS. Because the POS says they can increase the points required in a unit in a certain day, but it has to be balanced by a decrease in another day for the same unit. Because of point inflation for 2022 they had a point increase that was not balanced by a decrease. That was excusable if the concept of Base Year exists and is enforced by law. But if it doesn't then the way they've done the reallocation doesn't comply with the rules.
[this is essentially Drusdba's point, made a few posts back. Unfortunately I didn't read the latest message before the call otherwise I would have told them that as well]

Minor thing: I told them I understand why they have rebalanced Fall and Summer, but I still don't understand why they haven't touched the first two weeks of December. But I've told them I didn't want to go that route because it was not really the topic of the call and time is always short.

Not sure I've convinced them, but I've read some doubt in their voice. They told me they'll report my feedback to the team and they'll come back to me.

As usual, I have appreciated the opportunity to talk with DVC leadership and it's great they made themselves available to listen to my complaint.

P.S. They've confirmed they've read this thread

Thanks for posting your detailed summary. I have a call scheduled next week - will pick up from where you left off.

It seems like DVCMC is continuing to test the limit of what the membership will notice/tolerate, and refining their justifications. I personally didn't have the expertise or inclination to dissect the charts. But did DVCMC believe that, in a group of people with reasonable disposable income, we couldn't find a few who could do it with their eyes closed?

It's odd DVCMC would consider alienating proven buyers for petty change "good business". Odder still that they doubled down after 2020. Why nickel and dime us when they could empty our wallets with Disney Magic, and everybody's happy? So disappointing.
 
Is there a possibility that in addition of a legacy 14, due to resale terms, there's also legacy #N based on the POS? Our consensus seems to be that the current point chart (due to base year point differential) is prohibited according to violation of the POS?

If so, and I acknowledge it might be a big leap for some or I'm not quite framing the issue properly, if we have a different number of legacy resorts, which may require their own point chart calculations based on the terms in their POS, would that be in our best interests to have distict point charts managed in this way?

I suppose another way to ask the question is that if it is determined that indeed DVCMC is creating a circumstance that is contrary to the terms of the agreement, and in order to correct it, it separates out those resorts that have those terms and those that don't- is that in our best interest if this were the response to "correcting" the 2022 point charts?

My concern would be the creation of another subset of legacy resorts, if DVCMC is adamant to keep increasing the points needed in a given year, as it appears the 2022 is doing according to analysis. Open to feedback if I've misunderstood the current issues or possible downstream effects.
 
Is there a possibility that in addition of a legacy 14, due to resale terms, there's also legacy #N based on the POS? Our consensus seems to be that the current point chart (due to base year point differential) is prohibited according to violation of the POS?

If so, and I acknowledge it might be a big leap for some or I'm not quite framing the issue properly, if we have a different number of legacy resorts, which may require their own point chart calculations based on the terms in their POS, would that be in our best interests to have distict point charts managed in this way?

I suppose another way to ask the question is that if it is determined that indeed DVCMC is creating a circumstance that is contrary to the terms of the agreement, and in order to correct it, it separates out those resorts that have those terms and those that don't- is that in our best interest if this were the response to "correcting" the 2022 point charts?

My concern would be the creation of another subset of legacy resorts, if DVCMC is adamant to keep increasing the points needed in a given year, as it appears the 2022 is doing according to analysis. Open to feedback if I've misunderstood the current issues or possible downstream effects.

There is always the ability to create charts via BVTC for use by non home resort owners and in reading that, it can be done differently for different resorts,

Or, is what you are asking is can they make different changes to different home resorts based on updated language in each resorts POS for each individual resort?

The multisite POS applies to all resorts And does specially include information related to demand balancing.
 


















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