DVC must stop rentals.....

[Madame]

The problem is how do they know it is a rental. If I book a room for my sister to use (for free) and I am not going, then what? As others have mentioned, as soon as they start changing rules, collateral damage occurs.

So cut it to 10. That’s a little under 1 rental/month. They also should make it per member, not membership…

 

[RoseGold]

So cut it to 10. That’s a little under 1 rental/month. They also should make it per member, not membership…

I've never rented out points, and I'm easily over that with guests and split stays for 2021 and 2022 already. It's not hard to get to that quickly with split stays.

And the membership could be a trust or an LLC, something like that, which could have dozens of humans involved in their other memberships.

 

[Sandisw]

Here is a question from someone who spent a lot of time in my career looking at contracts. Does the contract define balancing at any point? Because a lot of this depends on the definition of that word, and if it isn't defined in the contract, it can mean whatever Disney chooses (within reason). Moreover, my contract brain reads "their opportunities to use and enjoy the Vacation Homes and facilities at their Home Resort and at each other DVC Resort" as - well, there are one bedrooms available at seven months out that you could have booked if you got on the phone - that's sufficient opportunity to use and enjoy." There isn't anything in there that guarantees that you will be able to use studios or Grand Villas or VALK Club Rooms specifically or regularly.

(As me about ten rounds with Large Software Company in court over the word "use" when we never got the software to do what we were told it would do, which was in the RFP for it to do and then in the implementation contract as a deliverable.)

It is not defined in any way as to what that means. So, I agree that if one can book your home resort at some point, you are good.

Nothing even says you have to guaranteed specific times either. That is why there has yet to be any resort that books up at 11 months in all rooms at 8 am. If that was happening, then it needs to be adjusted. t An extent it was happening in falll but not summer.

However, no matter how inexpensive they make summer, It’s not Xmas time with holiday decorations and simply can’t complete with December in an even way.

 

[Madame]

I've never rented out points, and I'm easily over that with guests and split stays for 2021 and 2022 already. It's not hard to get to that quickly with split stays.

And the membership could be a trust or an LLC, something like that, which could have dozens of humans involved in their other memberships.

I’m talking full reservations, not “traveling with” or split over 3 resorts.

I guess they would have to do whatever is best for the membership as a whole if they were to change it, not outliers.

 

[Sandisw]

I would like to see a lower limit of the amount of rentals per year. Is that possible with current POS?

They can define commercial renting. That is what is not allowed and there is some language about it. But, it specifically does not mention…I can’t find it...on # of trips booked in the names of others…in the documents.

I have read that it is 20 in a rolling 12 month period…but not sure if it’s published. Which means, DVD can decide what it looks for and go from there.

But, it then comes down to whether there are people like me, now retired, who travel at least 6 to 7 times a year, and give trips to others at times I am not going…

Have to be careful…in the scheme of things, what % of owners are really commercial renting so many that the impact is large enough. I think a lot more owners may rent today then they did years ago, but again, is it so many trips that it would impact bookings to a degree one would notice? Doubt it.

 

[Sandisw]

So cut it to 10. That’s a little under 1 rental/month. They also should make it per member, not membership…

I currently have 16 booked and not one is a rental.

 

[clarker99]

TL;DR. But I am on team ‘lower 1BR prices’. 2 studios (8-10 pepole) are less than the price of 1 x 1BR (4 people). For those that dont care about washer/dryer etc.

 

[Madame]

I currently have 16 booked and not one is a rental.

Their job is to benefit the membership as a whole, so some people would get burned. It’s like why in the world am I still using more points to reserve in summer when it’s one of the only times I can go for the next 11 years, when membership demand does *not* warrant it

 

[Madame]

They can define commercial renting. That is what is not allowed and there is some language about it. But, it specifically does not mention…I can’t find it...on # of trips booked in the names of others…in the documents.

I have read that it is 20 in a rolling 12 month period…but not sure if it’s published. Which means, DVD can decide what it looks for and go from there.

But, it then comes down to whether there are people like me, now retired, who travel at least 6 to 7 times a year, and give trips to others at times I am not going…

Have to be careful…in the scheme of things, what % of owners are really commercial renting so many that the impact is large enough. I think a lot more owners may rent today then they did years ago, but again, is it so many trips that it would impact bookings to a degree one would notice? Doubt it.

what percentage of the membership are doing as you are? I would wager not the percentage it used to be with all of the small contract buyers.

 

[Sandisw]

Their job is to benefit the membership as a whole, so some people would get burned. It’s like why in the world am I still using more points to reserve in summer when it’s one of the only times I can go for the next 11 years, when membership demand does *not* warrant it

But, any member who gets burned for buying points and using them would be a big issue because they are in violation of “for personal use”

Again, renting ones points is allowed and anyone who has more than 20 seems like a good number to me to trigger a review for commercial renting. Not sure I agree though that alone works. To me, commercial means a business.

They simply can’t then define renting In general…but only in reference to commercial and as I said, I bet you have a lot more owners who rent often but stay well below that number that is stays within the rules.

Spec renting I get and if they want to add that attempting to rent a confirmed reservation outside of 69 days is subject to the rules of commercial renting, then that works,

But any other blanket change that lowers the number of trips booked on memberships or by owner at any one time is not a good thing.

 

[Madame]

But, any member who gets burned for buying points and using them would be a big issue because they are in violation of “for personal use”

Again, renting ones points is allowed and anyone who has more than 20 seems like a good number to me to trigger a review for commercial renting.

They simply can’t then define renting In general…but only in reference to commercial and as I said, I bet you have a lot more owners who rent often but stay well below that number that is stays within the rules.

Spec renting I get and if they want to add that attempting to rent a confirmed reservation outside of 69 days is subject to the rules of commercial renting, then that works,

But any other blanket change that lowers the number of trips booked on memberships or by owner at any one time is not a good thing.

We can agree to disagree. I have spent too much time on FB rental groups stalking the last 6ish months to unsee what I have seen. Again, I have learned to play the game, but as an owner I am less than impressed. I think a better solution would actually be to lower the point value of certain resorts when trading, but I honestly think that’s not a poplar opinion

 

[kilik64]

Here is the language from RIV that discusses what I mentioned earlier but gives what your points must get you. It says I will always be eligible to book at least one Use day in a Standard View studio for every 20 points I own. This alone put limits on how high those rooms can go. It also indicates that those categories must always exist

ETA. And the home resort booking period does not need to be the same for every DVC resort. For example, they could decide that trades into RIV don’t happen until 4 months out but that trades to SSR could happen at 8 months.
View attachment 669900

That's interesting that the max they can adjust is 20% unless they put it to a vote (which they'd never do).

The one use day limit is fun as well. Could just make a one day "season" and put all the rooms at that price for that one day then the rest of them year could be whatever they want within bounds of the total points and the 20% per year they can adjust points. Fulfills the contract as there is indeed one day of the year that you could get a tower studio for 15 points.

Contracts are fun!

 

[Sandisw]

That's interesting that the max they can adjust is 20% unless they put it to a vote (which they'd never do).

The one use day limit is fun as well. Could just make a one day "season" and put all the rooms at that price for that one day then the rest of them year could be whatever they want within bounds of the total points and the 20% per year they can adjust points. Fulfills the contract as there is indeed one day of the year that you could get a tower studio for 15 points.

Contracts are fun!

It says one use day for EVERY 20 points you own in SV studio. That world every is big. So. As someone who has 300 points, I am guaranteed to be able to get 15 days a year subject to normal booking rules.

There are way more than that right now but of the maximum at any one resort is 4000 points, then that would be like 200 days a year that have to be 20 points or less. Pretty sure it meets that too!

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

I currently have 16 booked and not one is a rental.

You are my hero! Well, you and that guy from the UK that bought 3500 points in a year.

 

[DVC Doctor]

I am a fan of having the flexibility of renting your own points at current market value, and not a fan of spec renting popular dates and fish for a renter willing to pay bug bucks - but that is just my opinion.

The question nobody addresses is what happens to an owner that is accused of "Commercial renting" and does Disney warn them and what happens if they refuse.

If Disney wants to buy back a commercial renter contracts at full value ($200pp or more) then that is reasonable, but if they shut an owner down and says we will give you $100pp or simply stops them from allowing other people to use their points, then I am not sure what the law would say about that.

In the end, I think the issue that burns non-renter owners the most is to see the commercial or non-commercial renters grab the best dates at the best resorts and then rent them to the highest bidder and that reduces the overall opportunity of most members as if they did not do that, then there would be better availability at the 11/7 month rope-drop booking window

 

[Sandisw]

I am a fan of having the flexibility of renting your own points at current market value, and not a fan of spec renting popular dates and fish for a renter willing to pay bug bucks - but that is just my opinion.

The question nobody addresses is what happens to an owner that is accused of "Commercial renting" and does Disney warn them and what happens if they refuse.

If Disney wants to buy back a commercial renter contracts at full value ($200pp or more) then that is reasonable, but if they shut an owner down and says we will give you $100pp or simply stops them from allowing other people to use their points, then I am not sure what the law would say about that.

In the end, I think the issue that burns non-renter owners the most is to see the commercial or non-commercial renters grab the best dates at the best resorts and then rent them to the highest bidder and that reduces the overall opportunity of most members as if they did not do that, then there would be better availability at the 11/7 month rope-drop booking window

They would find them in violation of the contract and I believe lock the account for use until it’s settled.

Reservations will be canceled.

 

[dioxide45]

DVC won't try to eliminate or curtail renting of DVC points until it starts to impact their bottom line in competing with their own rentals. So far the secondary rental market is pretty small when compared to what DVC is renting.

 

[CarolMN]

I am a fan of having the flexibility of renting your own points at current market value, and not a fan of spec renting popular dates and fish for a renter willing to pay bug bucks - but that is just my opinion.

The question nobody addresses is what happens to an owner that is accused of "Commercial renting" and does Disney warn them and what happens if they refuse.

If Disney wants to buy back a commercial renter contracts at full value ($200pp or more) then that is reasonable, but if they shut an owner down and says we will give you $100pp or simply stops them from allowing other people to use their points, then I am not sure what the law would say about that.

In the end, I think the issue that burns non-renter owners the most is to see the commercial or non-commercial renters grab the best dates at the best resorts and then rent them to the highest bidder and that reduces the overall opportunity of most members as if they did not do that, then there would be better availability at the 11/7 month rope-drop booking window

Some history:

A long time ago (but still in a nearby galaxy) , renting was way out of control. At that time, transfers were unlimited and DVC had no system to easily track them. Transferred points "morphed" into the home resort of the contract into which they were received. Some Members bought small contracts of the popular, near-park resorts and then transferred in cheap points from larger resorts. Some even bragged about it. A lot of those points were used during the home resort priority period for rentals. (This eventually resulted in the "one transfer rule").

DVC eventually decided that 20 or more reservations in a 12-month period was probably commercial renting and notified some members via letter that their accounts were subject to audit. We don't really know what happened to those members, but several did say they were selling their contracts, and a lot of the "prolific" renters disappeared. AFAIK, none of them challenged DVC's actions (whatever they were or whatever they threatened).

Quite a few of those folks were spec renters, and their behavior generated a lot of "rental hate" here on the DIS. It's dissipated quite a bit since then, but is still very unpopular. The subject of renting comes up every so often and generates lots of posts every time. But there are never opinions that haven't been posted before - many times.

 

[bumbershoot]

Do you not think it's a problem that some rooms are always available at 8 months and other rooms are never available at 8 months and that they're always the exact same rooms?

I haven't noticed that in recent years. If I'm not seeing that, it means that what you are seeing isn't ALWAYS the case.

The home resort window is supposed to mean "if you book before non-owners, you're pretty much fine, within reason." You should never have to "rope drop" the 11 month window to get a Studio.

They do not have infinite numbers of rooms. They have many owners who have many reasons to book. If for that date there's a bunch of people who want to book a studio, you'll see a problem. Maybe a week later it isn't that popular and you won't see a problem.

I also think it's just factually incorrect. RIV SV doesn't go fast because there are more PV, RIV SV goes fast because members are points-misers.

How can you possibly know what's in the hearts and minds of all owners?

It's not a first come first serve system! I am 100% certain that I'm going to Aulani in April 2024. I own Aulani. But I can't book it. Because it's not a first come, first served system.

What do you mean?

I guess they would have to do whatever is best for the membership as a whole if they were to change it, not outliers.

I think they ARE doing what's best for membership as a whole.

Have to be careful…in the scheme of things, what % of owners are really commercial renting so many that the impact is large enough. I think a lot more owners may rent today then they did years ago, but again, is it so many trips that it would impact bookings to a degree one would notice? Doubt it.

I doubt it, too. They have the data that we do not.

It’s like why in the world am I still using more points to reserve in summer when it’s one of the only times I can go for the next 11 years, when membership demand does *not* warrant it

Summer is 3 months. The weeks between Thanksgiving and NYE is not 3 months. Demand is more spread out in the summer, but it's still high because of vacations.

I have spent too much time on FB rental groups stalking the last 6ish months to unsee what I have seen.

This is like my stepmom, a NICU nurse, thinking that ALL pregnancies end in disaster. She forgets that many MANY women (including her own 3 pregnancies, all of which were simple, natural, and fast with completely healthy babies at the end) have totally uneventful pregnancies and labors, and it's a minority of newborns that end up in the NICU. You see the little snippet of the DVC world in that small view of a rental board, and forget that countless members aren't renting out points at all.

The subject of renting comes up every so often and generates lots of posts every time. But there are never opinions that haven't been posted before - many times.

Yep.

 

[Madame]

I haven't noticed that in recent years. If I'm not seeing that, it means that what you are seeing isn't ALWAYS the case.



They do not have infinite numbers of rooms. They have many owners who have many reasons to book. If for that date there's a bunch of people who want to book a studio, you'll see a problem. Maybe a week later it isn't that popular and you won't see a problem.



How can you possibly know what's in the hearts and minds of all owners?



What do you mean?



I think they ARE doing what's best for membership as a whole.



I doubt it, too. They have the data that we do not.



Summer is 3 months. The weeks between Thanksgiving and NYE is not 3 months. Demand is more spread out in the summer, but it's still high because of vacations.



This is like my stepmom, a NICU nurse, thinking that ALL pregnancies end in disaster. She forgets that many MANY women (including her own 3 pregnancies, all of which were simple, natural, and fast with completely healthy babies at the end) have totally uneventful pregnancies and labors, and it's a minority of newborns that end up in the NICU. You see the little snippet of the DVC world in that small view of a rental board, and forget that countless members aren't renting out points at all.



Yep

I haven't noticed that in recent years. If I'm not seeing that, it means that what you are seeing isn't ALWAYS the case.



They do not have infinite numbers of rooms. They have many owners who have many reasons to book. If for that date there's a bunch of people who want to book a studio, you'll see a problem. Maybe a week later it isn't that popular and you won't see a problem.



How can you possibly know what's in the hearts and minds of all owners?



What do you mean?



I think they ARE doing what's best for membership as a whole.



I doubt it, too. They have the data that we do not.



Summer is 3 months. The weeks between Thanksgiving and NYE is not 3 months. Demand is more spread out in the summer, but it's still high because of vacations.



This is like my stepmom, a NICU nurse, thinking that ALL pregnancies end in disaster. She forgets that many MANY women (including her own 3 pregnancies, all of which were simple, natural, and fast with completely healthy babies at the end) have totally uneventful pregnancies and labors, and it's a minority of newborns that end up in the NICU. You see the little snippet of the DVC world in that small view of a rental board, and forget that countless members aren't renting out points at all.



Yep.

I’m a member of a dozen rental pages on FB When I do something, I commit. You’re welcome to your view of things which, of course, are also limited to your experiences, which I assume is also exposure to many and various rental boards/pages to have formed such a knowledgeable conclusion about my opinion.