DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[Cfabar1]

Ya'll are gonna beat this whole trust thing into submission when most of us don't even want it anyway. LOL.

The short term ship has sailed folks, Nothing about how DVC is sold is going to change. Certainly not in the near future. I'd find the 'beat a dead horse' EMOJI but I'm too lazy to try to find it.

I think a lot of DVC is on the verge of changing. This contract will be a significant departure from any previous DVC contract, and the groundwork is being laid.

DVC didn't come out and establish resale restrictions limiting resort availability right away - they strategically made several changes limiting the value of resale over several years. Now that that project is complete, they are moving onto this next project to help create more money for Disney at the expense of the membership.

 

[J-Dog]

No matter what they do, trust or stay the same for the future projects, they will find ways that resale restrictions stay and resale value will be what it will be.

That is why I have now shifted that each property in the trust, will be its own and have priority for one month and that dues will stay by property.

Oh, I 100% agree that resale restrictions will continue - but IMO that makes the potential value discrepancy for adding trust resorts later-on even worse - if CFW is sold with restrictions now but then later-on they add resorts to the trust that are included in those same resale restrictions.

For example, if 2 different people buy CFW direct when it goes on sale, and one of them sells CFW resale in a year from now, and that buyer can only use it for CFW, it will cost $X/point on the resale market. But then if the second person holds onto his points until after PVB2 is added (not that I think that will happen), and sells - that resale buyer can now potentially use the points at both CFW and PVB2, potentially greatly increasing resale value - the guy that sells first, even one day before the sudden announcement of PVB2 being added to the trust, probably gets totally screwed.

 

[Sandisw]

Oh, I 100% agree that resale restrictions will continue - but IMO that makes the potential value discrepancy for adding trust resorts later-on even worse - if CFW is sold with restrictions now but then later-on they add resorts to the trust that are included in those same resale restrictions.

For example, if 2 different people buy CFW direct when it goes on sale, and one of them sells CFW resale in a year from now, and that buyer can only use it for CFW, it will cost $X/point on the resale market. But then if the second person holds onto his points until after PVB2 is added (not that I think that will happen), and sells - that resale buyer can now potentially use the points at both CFW and PVB2, potentially greatly increasing resale value - the guy that sells first, even one day before the sudden announcement of PVB2 being added to the trust, probably gets totally screwed.

Oh, I never see them making it so trust resale has access to more than one property. But, if they did? Don't see that much different than the ebb and flow and moves by DVD that can and do have an impact on the prodcut.

Many have sold RIV already. If DVD reversed course and all of a sudden removed the restrictions, those of us who still own might see an increase. Does that mean those who sold already got screwed? Not in my opinion.

We all buy what we buy knowing the rules and those of us buying a restricted resort know that DVD can change their minds. So, I don't see it as an issue at all because we were told upfront that it could and to not buy with any resale value expectations in mind.

For me, as a RIV owner, having all of it laid out very clearly and having to sign off on the information, means they did their job in telling me the rules. Anyone buying this product, whether direct or resale, should be aware of things that can happen.

I can say this, the idea of owning some points in this type of trust if it gives me access to other resorts a bit sooner than I would otherwise through BVTC intrigues me and if it comes to pass for future resorts, it could be something I decide to purchase...

 

[dioxide45]

Oh, I never see them making it so trust resale has access to more than one property.

If the trust owns multiple resorts, they really can't stop trust owners from reserving any resort within the trust, even for resale. If you own a beneficial interest in the trust you legally must be able to reserve what the trust owns. Now they could prevent resale trust owners from making exchanges within the BVTC at 7 months. Effectively if there are points/deeds from two resorts owned by the trust, then a resale trust owner could only reserve those two resorts from 11 months through 0 months.

 

[Sandisw]

If the trust owns multiple resorts, they really can't stop trust owners from reserving any resort within the trust, even for resale. If you own a beneficial interest in the trust you legally must be able to reserve what the trust owns. Now they could prevent resale trust owners from making exchanges within the BVTC at 7 months. Effectively if there are points/deeds from two resorts owned by the trust, then a resale trust owner could only reserve those two resorts from 11 months through 0 months.

Well, that is not the way it appears to be written. It says they can give set up more than one trust use plan and that property is activated into one of those plans.

That gives them the ability to set those up anyway they want and it is the specific trust use plan that guides things.

So. I am not sure I agree with you that it can’t be done.

For example, they could have a cabins resort use plan and a poly tower resort use plan, and those are independent of each other.

The owners get to use the property activated into the plan that they buy under.

Right now, the cabins are activated into the cabins resort use plan and it is the terms of that that guide the rules.

So, I don’t see them being forbidden to activate resort property with different rules. At least, this clause seems to support it

 

[Paul Stupin]

Well, that is not the way it appears to be written. It says they can give set up more than one trust use plan and that property is activated into one of those plans.

That gives them the ability to set those up anyway they want and it is the specific trust use plan that guides things.

So. I am not sure I agree with you that it can’t be done.

For example, they could have a cabins resort use plan and a poly tower resort use plan, and those are independent of each other.

The owners get to use the property activated into the plan that they buy under.

Right now, the cabins are activated into the cabins resort use plan and it is the terms of that that guide the rules.

So, I don’t see them being forbidden to activate resort property with different rules. At least, this clause seems to support it

View attachment 827082

The thing is, don’t you think that Poly2 will be popular enough, and the demand strong enough, that it might not be worth complicating the sales process with additional elements? Unless, of course, it’s a legal maneuver that somehow benefits them only. The podcast theorized that it might make foreclosures easier.

If all Poly2 points are deeded into the trust, like they appear to be for FWC, I would bet there wouldn’t be any additional benefits for new buyers, and the changes to the legalese won’t be perceived as particularly noteworthy. Why would DVD attempt to sweeten the deal when they don’t need to? The additional booking benefit at less popular resorts doesn't mean much if you’re buying Poly2 to stay at Poly2, does it?

 

[Sandisw]

The thing is, don’t you think that Poly2 will be popular enough, and the demand strong enough, that it might not be worth complicating the sales process with additional elements? Unless, of course, it’s a legal maneuver that somehow benefits them only. The podcast theorized that it might make foreclosures easier.

If all Poly2 points are deeded into the trust, like they appear to be for FWC, I would bet there wouldn’t be any additional benefits for new buyers, and the changes to the legalese won’t be perceived as particularly noteworthy. Why would DVD attempt to sweeten the deal when they don’t need to? The additional booking benefit at less popular resorts doesn't mean much if you’re buying Poly2 to stay at Poly2, does it?

I think there is a difference in the way they retain things when selling leasehold condo vs as a RTU plan under a trust.

I agree it should sell well, but changing the type of product they sell could be a very good reason to do it differently.

So, maybe it’s not about sweetening the deal to sell things better but to simply set things up for a different path down the road.

There is no reason they can’t add it to the trust under its own trust use plan and it has nothing to do with CFW and vice versa. It can technically operate the exact same way for booking as it does now.

Sure, they can do something creative within a trust they can’t do with individual resorts, and we could see it, but that doesn’t have to be the case.

I think that’s why I am waiting to see what they do because I am still not 100% convinced they will give up restrictions on this project.

Although, the sales for December, especially for VDH were not good so who knows.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I think there is a difference in the way they retain things when selling leasehold condo vs as a RTU plan under a trust.

I agree it should sell well, but changing the type of product they sell could be a very good reason to do it differently.

So, maybe it’s not about sweetening the deal to sell things better but to simply set things up for a different path down the road.

There is no reason they can’t add it to the trust under its own trust use plan and it has nothing to do with CFW and vice versa. It can technically operate the exact same way for booking as it does now.

Sure, they can do something creative within a trust they can’t do with individual resorts, and we could see it, but that doesn’t have to be the case.

I think that’s why I am waiting to see what they do because I am still not 100% convinced they will give up restrictions on this project.

Although, the sales for December, especially for VDH were not good so who knows.

Yes, I would bet selling RTU points might also benefit them in all sorts of sneaky little ways that we non lawyers haven’t anticipated, or haven’t yet fathomed, above and beyond how they would sell it to us. Could very well be to our detriment. Who knows, we might be glad we purchased and received actual deeded points If any of this actually comes to fruition.

 

[J-Dog]

And, no, they don’t have to announce there could be new property down the line to sell the cabins.

I look at it this way. Right now, you get home resort and trading at 7 months.

The trust could give people home resort, trust property home resort and trading

It could give people more than one home resort for booking purposes if things go into the same vacation plan.

There is no reason they can’t add it to the trust under its own trust use plan and it has nothing to do with CFW and vice versa. It can technically operate the exact same way for booking as it does now.

I apologize if I am mis-interpreting your posts - but aren't you contradicting yourself here?

I completely agree with your second post that I quoted above - that the trust resorts are separate entities from each other and are essentially exactly the same to a DVC buyer as all other resorts ever were (or at least as RIV and VDH were, considering resale restirctions).

But I disagree with your top post that I quoted here - that they will add multiple resorts to this current CFW trust after-the-fact and change the rules as they go.

To me, those are very different products. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I think there is a difference in the way they retain things when selling leasehold condo vs as a RTU plan under a trust.

I agree it should sell well, but changing the type of product they sell could be a very good reason to do it differently.

So, maybe it’s not about sweetening the deal to sell things better but to simply set things up for a different path down the road.

There is no reason they can’t add it to the trust under its own trust use plan and it has nothing to do with CFW and vice versa. It can technically operate the exact same way for booking as it does now.

Sure, they can do something creative within a trust they can’t do with individual resorts, and we could see it, but that doesn’t have to be the case.

I think that’s why I am waiting to see what they do because I am still not 100% convinced they will give up restrictions on this project.

Although, the sales for December, especially for VDH were not good so who knows.

Actually, this brings up another point as well. VDH, just In my opinion of course, is small, and unimpressively themed, factors which might have contributed to the not so good sales numbers. And it can’t stand by itself as a self contained resort.

Maybe DVD saw some similarities to Poly2, affecting their decision to keep it in the same association.

 

[achinforsomebacon]

Well, that is not the way it appears to be written. It says they can give set up more than one trust use plan and that property is activated into one of those plans.

That gives them the ability to set those up anyway they want and it is the specific trust use plan that guides things.

So. I am not sure I agree with you that it can’t be done.

For example, they could have a cabins resort use plan and a poly tower resort use plan, and those are independent of each other.

The owners get to use the property activated into the plan that they buy under.

Right now, the cabins are activated into the cabins resort use plan and it is the terms of that that guide the rules.

So, I don’t see them being forbidden to activate resort property with different rules. At least, this clause seems to support it

View attachment 827082

This is what I was thinking. If they keep different plans for each resort, you'd buy into one plan and still have a home resort. Then if they wanted to give access to other resorts, there would be some sort of reciprocity agreement between plans that's only available for direct purchasers.

 

[dioxide45]

When they sell a beneficial interest in the trust to someone are they tying those beneficial interests to a specific Use Plan? I'm not so sure they can do that. The Use Plans indicate how the points can be used within those plans by anyone that owns beneficial interests in the trust.

 

[Sandisw]

When they sell a beneficial interest in the trust to someone are they tying those beneficial interests to a specific Use Plan? I'm not so sure they can do that. The Use Plans indicate how the points can be used within those plans by anyone that owns beneficial interests in the trust.

It also says that owners will buy into a vacation plan and that gives them an indirect interest in the trust, not a direct one.

So, ir does appear that this trust has been set up that you are buying RTU only to those parts of the resort property that have been activated into the specific plan you are now part of and that DVD set it up for that specific purpose.

Until we see more than the cabins added, we won’t know for sure. But even the current resorts sold as leasehold say that they can add property and put it under a different vacation plan.

I have not yet found anything in the statute seems to dispute this has been set up in a way that won’t allow it.

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

No matter what they do, trust or stay the same for the future projects, they will find ways that resale restrictions stay and resale value will be what it will be.

That is why I have now shifted that each property in the trust, will be its own and have priority for one month and that dues will stay by property.

Why would the Trust choose to give owners a 1-month booking advantage when they'd already be rewarded buying into the Trust & gain 11 month advantage for multiple resorts in competition with those that originally BOUGHT WHERE THEY WANTED TO STAY for the 11-mo advantage?

 

[Sandisw]

Why would the Trust choose to give owners a 1-month booking advantage when they'd already be rewarded buying into the Trust & gain 11 month advantage for multiple resorts in competition with those that originally BOUGHT WHERE THEY WANTED TO STAY for the 11-mo advantage?

The trust doesn’t appear to have been set up to automatically give everyone the same home resort advantage at every trust property. . Thst is what I am discerning from reading the filed documents.

The way it is currently written, you buy into a specidic trust use plan which becomes your home resort. Whatever property is activated for sale under that plan is what you are guaranteed your one month advantage. If the trust has property under a different trust use plan, you may or may not get the same advantage.

So, they can set up multiple plans with different inventory and that is what gives you your home resort advantage.

Right now, those buying to the Cabins resort use plan, are being given the same four months we have but just like us, that is not guaranteed.

CFW owners will get access to the rest via BVTC like the rest of us do for non home resort.

Where the trust can be different is that it could theoretically allow for an in between home resort advantage to other other trust properties instead of waiting until the trading via BVtC.

Of course, they could decide to change it and make every owner of each plan have reciprocal access to other plans but the more I read the DVC membership agreement with the one month advantage guarantee to property in the CFW plan, the more I think we won’t see it exaclty the same.

That is why I lean to seeing something like the 11 month for your specific trust use plan inventory, 10 month for other trust property and the rest at 7 months via BVTC…assuming this isn’t just for the cabins.

That is what I am talking about. Many have speculated that any trust owner gets access to all resorts at 11 months if they go into the trust.

As I posted, that is not how I am reading the terms of this trust. I am seeing this more of a hybrid when it comes to potential booking over what is currently in place.

 

[Paul Stupin]

The trust doesn’t appear to have been set up to automatically give everyone the same home resort advantage at every trust property. . Thst is what I am discerning from reading the filed documents.

The way it is currently written, you buy into a specidic trust use plan which becomes your home resort. Whatever property is activated for sale under that plan is what you are guaranteed your one month advantage. If the trust has property under a different trust use plan, you may or may not get the same advantage.

So, they can set up multiple plans with different inventory and that is what gives you your home resort advantage.

Right now, those buying to the Cabins resort use plan, are being given the same four months we have but just like us, that is not guaranteed.

CFW owners will get access to the rest via BVTC like the rest of us do for non home resort.

Where the trust can be different is that it could theoretically allow for an in between home resort advantage to other other trust properties instead of waiting until the trading via BVtC.

Of course, they could decide to change it and make every owner of each plan have reciprocal access to other plans but the more I read the DVC membership agreement with the one month advantage guarantee to property in the CFW plan, the more I think we won’t see it exaclty the same.

That is why I lean to seeing something like the 11 month for your specific trust use plan inventory, 10 month for other trust property and the rest at 7 months via BVTC…assuming this isn’t just for the cabins.

That is what I am talking about. Many have speculated that any trust owner gets access to all resorts at 11 months if they go into the trust.

As I posted, that is not how I am reading the terms of this trust. I am seeing this more of a hybrid when it comes to potential booking over what is currently in place.

Ok, a few questions regarding this reasoning. If all the Poly2 points are in the trust, will new buyers be forced to pay extra for these additional booking advantages? That would be particularly annoying if they were buying exclusively where they wanted to stay, namely, Poly2. And it could very well sabotage sales because some percentage of buyers wouldn’t appreciate paying extra for a benefit they don’t need and probably don’t want.

Or, do you think buyers will be given the option to forgo these additional booking advantages and just get Poly2 at a no doubt expensive but somewhat lesser price, with a seven month booking advantage at newer resorts available at no extra cost because the points are direct? If so, it’s hard to imagine too many buyers opting for the multiple resort trust option, since they would only be gaining a three month advantage at, relatively speaking, unpopular resorts with plenty of seven month availability anyway.

 

[Sandisw]

Ok, a few questions regarding this reasoning. If all the Poly2 points are in the trust, will new buyers be forced to pay extra for these additional booking advantages? That would be particularly annoying if they were buying exclusively where they wanted to stay, namely, Poly2. And it could very well sabotage sales because some percentage of buyers wouldn’t appreciate paying extra for a benefit they don’t need and probably don’t want.

Or, do you think buyers will be given the option to forgo these additional booking advantages and just get Poly2 at a no doubt expensive but somewhat lesser price, with a seven month booking advantage at newer resorts available at no extra cost because the points are direct? If so, it’s hard to imagine too many buyers opting for the multiple resort trust option, since they would only be gaining a three month advantage at, relatively speaking, unpopular resorts with plenty of seven month availability anyway.

I have no idea how they might want it to work but if I had to take a guess?

If they want to make the trust product different and have it seen as “better” by giving advantage to more resorts sooner, then it won’t be optional.

Even now, we are only guaranteed a one month advantage for home resort. So, it’s pretty easy for them to change that and they don’t need to have a reason to do so.

I don’t see Poly tower any different or special in that regard.

If we assume this is for more that the CFW..and yes that is all we can do since we really don’t know..then it would seem to me that they would make it a bit different.

As I said, it’s why I am more inclined to see future properties added as still buy into those specific plans but not necessarily having a 4 month home resort advantage as we do now.

I am guessing in 3 to 4 months, will see papers filed for the project and know if they have decided to stay status quo with that project…meaning add to PVB, sell as a new phase, and forget the resale resteictons

If they do, then I think this trust won’t come in to play for properties for a bit..unless Reflections becomes the next one and gets added and that is why it starts.

Actually, we may even get info sooner when guides start selling CFW…if they start mentioning Poly tower as well, they might be more forth coming of the plan.
.

 

[Paul Stupin]

I have no idea how they might want it to work but if I had to take a guess?

If they want to make the trust product different and have it seen as “better” by giving advantage to more resorts sooner, then it won’t be optional.

Even now, we are only guaranteed a one month advantage for home resort. So, it’s pretty easy for them to change that and they don’t need to have a reason to do so.

I don’t see Poly tower any different or special in that regard.

If we assume this is for more that the CFW..and yes that is all we can do since we really don’t know..then it would seem to me that they would make it a bit different.

As I said, it’s why I am more inclined to see future properties added as still buy into those specific plans but not necessarily having a 4 month home resort advantage as we do now.

I am guessing in 3 to 4 months, will see papers filed for the project and know if they have decided to stay status quo with that project…meaning add to PVB, sell as a new phase, and forget the resale resteictons

If they do, then I think this trust won’t come in to play for properties for a bit..unless Reflections becomes the next one and gets added and that is why it starts.

Actually, we may even get info sooner when guides start selling CFW…if they start mentioning Poly tower as well, they might be more forth coming of the plan.
.

All good points, and my guess is that if it happens, it will happen down the road a bit. But if this system undermines booking availability in any way for those of us who specifically bought direct points to book at future resorts, no matter what the fine print allows them contractually, then it might create more of a backlash than they anticipate.

Or not! I guess it depends on how they set it up. At the very least, I think they’d be well served to keep in mind the sensitivities of current members.

 

[Sandisw]

All good points, and my guess is that if it happens, it will happen down the road a bit. But if this system undermines booking availability in any way for those of us who specifically bought direct points to book at future resorts, no matter what the fine print allows them contractually, then it might create more of a backlash than they anticipate.

Or not! I guess it depends on how they set it up. At the very least, I think they’d be well served to keep in mind the sensitivities of current members.

Well, anyone should be aware that a one month home resort period is all we are entitled to have.

Having said that, since I do not believe they can send rooms from sold out resorts to the trust, it means non home resort bookings stay with BVTC and don’t see a need for them to change things up except going forward. If anything, I could seem them increasing home resort for the current resorts and decrease trading.

Unless this ends up being just for CFW, I think we al need to be prepared that changes could be coming.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Well, anyone should be aware that a one month home resort period is all we are entitled to have.

Having said that, since I do not believe they can send rooms from sold out resorts to the trust, it means non home resort bookings stay with BVTC and don’t see a need for them to change things up except going forward. If anything, I could seem them increasing home resort for the current resorts and decrease trading.

Unless this ends up being just for CFW, I think we al need to be prepared that changes could be coming.

Yes, per our contracts, we all know the language, especially after reading this board! But if the booking window is indeed altered to our detriment, and their response is “check the language in your contract, all you’re really entitled to is one month, sorry pal,” they‘re going to have thousands and thousands of potentially angry owners on their hands, to whom DVD would want to sell in the future. I don’t think they would want to alienate them.

This isn’t like suspending annual pass sales. Its about the core of the entire system, and the reason many bought. If they proceed, and who knows if they will, they’re going to have to do it really carefully, and figure out a way so this won’t happen.