DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[zavandor]

What happens to existing owners?
If I were a guide who sold RIV points 11 days before the new Trust is announced I wouldn't answer my phone for weeks, if they don't allow existing owners to enroll for free or a very low fee into the trust.
I think the trust will end with points from all resorts, in different quantities, of course. Not many BCV or VGC points, I would say.

 

[Sandisw]

What happens to existing owners?
If I were a guide who sold RIV points 11 days before the new Trust is announced I wouldn't answer my phone for weeks, if they don't allow existing owners to enroll for free or a very low fee into the trust.
I think the trust will end with points from all resorts, in different quantities, of course. Not many BCV or VGC points, I would say.

The way I am seeing it.l.and I admit, I am trying to learn about this type of timeshare plan so not sure if I get it completely yet.

But, they wouldn’t be adding declared units from RIV into the trust…they would take all the undeclared units and make them a “new” element of RIV that isn’t being sold as a deeded ownership interest…the contracts say that DVD doesn’t have to add more rooms beyond the initial declaration.

Those other units now stay with DVD who put them into the trust to own. Then, those members of the trust get access to those via the trust and deeded owners have access to the same number of rooms now that are declared. Something like this would work against the concern I mentioned earlier about booking rules.

The trust then sets up the trading and at 7 months, all rooms from the trust and deeded ownership rooms are open to all.

I do not see them adding points from current resorts like BCV, but rather give the trust members access to trade into them at 7 months….

I don’t think they need to make it that complicated. Like I said, let’s assume…for fun…that they announce a new DVC program that alllows you to become a member of the trust and you get access at RIV, VDH, Poly tower, and CFW right off the bat at the 11 month booking and then all others at 7 months.

The Poly tower rooms would not be the same units that they declare into the PVB assocation…those would be sold like PVB…deeded ownership interests.

To be clear, this is just my speculation and idea of how they could make this whole trust idea work without getting into potential conflicts against the current POSs from the other resorts.

 

[Cfabar1]

The way I am seeing it.l.and I admit, I am trying to learn about this type of timeshare plan so not sure if I get it completely yet.

But, they wouldn’t be adding declared units from RIV into the trust…they would take all the undeclared units and make them a “new” element of RIV that isn’t being sold as a deeded ownership interest…the contracts say that DVD doesn’t have to add more rooms beyond the initial declaration.

Those other units now stay with DVD who put them into the trust to own. Then, those members of the trust get access to those via the trust and deeded owners have access to the same number of rooms now that are declared. Something like this would work against the concern I mentioned earlier about booking rules.

The trust then sets up the trading and at 7 months, all rooms from the trust and deeded ownership rooms are open to all.

I do not see them adding points from current resorts like BCV, but rather give the trust members access to trade into them at 7 months….

I don’t think they need to make it that complicated. Like I said, let’s assume…for fun…that they announce a new DVC program that alllows you to become a member of the trust and you get access at RIV, VDH, Poly tower, and CFW right off the bat at the 11 month booking and then all others at 7 months.

The Poly tower rooms would not be the same units that they declare into the PVB assocation…those would be sold like PVB…deeded ownership interests.

To be clear, this is just my speculation and idea of how they could make this whole trust idea work without getting into potential conflicts against the current POSs from the other resorts.

I agree with you. I think this idea, or something akin to it is the easiest way for Disney to move forward - especially with this initial phase and given the fact disney has the advantage that no other major operator has - you only own the resorts for a specific amount of time, not forever.

 

[BeachClub2014]

I agree with you. I think this idea, or something akin to it is the easiest way for Disney to move forward.

So what I still can't wrap my mind around with the trust is whether there is a "home resort" priority identified for the individual, or are all "owners" of the trust competing for all the rooms in the trust at the same time? I'm missing something.

 

[Cfabar1]

So what I still can't wrap my mind around with the trust is whether there is a "home resort" priority identified for the individual, or are all "owners" of the trust competing for all the rooms in the trust at the same time? I'm missing something.

Yes, you're in the swamp with all the other fishes and alligators duking it out.... Wake up at 8 AM... Good luck!

 

[Sandisw]

So what I still can't wrap my mind around with the trust is whether there is a "home resort" priority identified for the individual, or are all "owners" of the trust competing for all the rooms in the trust at the same time? I'm missing something.

Members of the trust don’t own anything. The trust owns the units…members are given access to any and all rooms that are part of the trust…so, if DVd put rooms from the resort I mentioned above that have not yet been added into the current associations, it would be like its own home resort…but instead of one component site, its several..that is why members don’t own at any one resort, like we do know as current owners,

Its why I said starting with all new units that are not part of the current DVC means there is no competition against what current owners have.

Think of it as shared resorts which have hotel rooms and DVC rooms. Two different sets of inventory until 7 months, when all get to trade with each other.

At least this is how I am starting to understand it how these types of programs work.

 

[thadhouse]

Thinking more, theres actually a major problem with a DVC trust that most other time shares don't have to deal with. Most other points based time shared from my understanding are perpetual. So you can sell as many points into the trust as the trust owns. DVC wouldn't be able to do that with any existing points, as they would expire, and all at different times. So you run the risk of not having any points backing someones ownership, which likely is a legal nightmare.

You could work around this by either only putting new resorts in the trust with different expiration rules, or something in the POS that as soon as an existing ground lease expires on any points the trust owns, a new ground lease is instantly legally recreated to make sure there are enough points in the system.

 

[emchen]

Not to add a layer of complexity on this, but...

A number of other Timeshare systems actively sought (I know that Diamond Resorts did this, for instance) existing members to convert their memberships into the Trust. I wonder if Disney would do that?

I can't imagine they wouldn't.... this is the best thing DVC could do from their perspective... and owners would be making a HUGE mistake to convert their fixed deeds to a trust.

Please elaborate on why you think it would be a “HUGE mistake to convert”?

It would mean the loss of a sense of personal ownership? Worse 7-11 month experience? Loss of overall value?

 

[Cfabar1]

Please elaborate on why you think it would be a “HUGE the mistake”?

It would mean the loss of a sense of personal ownership? Worse 7-11 month experience? Loss of overall value?

1. You'd go from owning an actual deed to owning a promise and air.
2. There's no guarantee that these points would be as generous a structure for these rooms as the other structure existing owners have.
3. You'd be paying dues that will need to cover the costs at the most expensive properties.
4. You're in the soup bidding with everyone else on all the properties in there.
5. Disney wouldn't be exploring this unless they thought it was a better deal for them than the current system.

among other reasons.

 

[ehh]

Please elaborate on why you think it would be a “HUGE mistake to convert”?

It would mean the loss of a sense of personal ownership? Worse 7-11 month experience? Loss of overall value?

As a hypothetical, imagine that the existing DVC system converted to a trust system suddenly. Only using this as an example because of how familiar it is, I'm in no way suggesting this will happen.

A Trust system would result in many hard-to-book-at-11m rooms becoming extremely-hard-to-book-at-11m rooms (BWV SV Studios, RIV SV Studios, CCV Studios, CCV/BRV around Christmas, AKV Value/Club, VGF Deluxe Studios, etc.). Same finite number of rooms, but likely way more demand for the already-favored rooms.

Imagine you could book at any resort at 11m, even ones you don't own, which rooms would you book that you'd never be able to normally get at 7m? Now imagine how many other people think similarly

VGC would go from usually-casual between 11-7m to crazy at 11m almost every day.

On balance, this would mean other categories would get easier to book, but they'd be the ones that already on the easy side to book, so somewhat moot.

There would also be a 'mixing' of dues, so if you owned at resorts that are low dues, you likely end up paying more.

There is some upside for resorts like AUL, where dues are high and travel cadence may not justify ownership for many, AUL-via-Trust could be more attractive than OG-AUL ownership.

But the more I noodle on it, the more concerned I grow about a Trust system for my needs.

 

[Dobermanns]

VGC would go from usually-casual between 11-7m to crazy at 11m almost every day.

Would this hypothetical scenario be one faced by trust owners only, or existing deeded owners as well?

 

[tidefan]

Would this hypothetical scenario be one faced by trust owners only, or existing deeded owners as well?

It would depend on how they allocated units to the trust. What I wonder is say the trust owns 10 percent of SSR. Which dates and unit types would they be able to draw into the trust? I know ownership would be separate, but how would that 10 percent of points be allocated to what days and which units? This would be a bit messy.

 

[ehh]

Would this hypothetical scenario be one faced by trust owners only, or existing deeded owners as well?

In my above hypothetical, there are no more deeded owners, just Trust owners. Basically everything becomes bookable at 11m and the more sought after rooms get harder to book. Not realistic, but demonstrative.

This is speculation on my part, but in a more realistic scenario where Trust ownership gets 'mixed' into a resort somehow, and there's a combo of both deeded owners and Trust owners, I can't foresee these two ownership groups having a shared inventory. I'd suspect there'd be a revolt if Trust owners could book from the same broader inventory as deeded owners (who revolts is probably up to the balance between the two).

I would hope Trust and deeded owners could book from inventories representative of the collective ownership of the Trust and individual deeds, respectively. There's an existing system that could be used to support this: declaration units. But whole units would need to be moved into the Trust.

But even a clean, 50/50 mix could be tough at some resorts. For example, VDH has just 2 GVs and giving each ownership pool just 1 of them seems like it would cause booking headaches. Even 2BR/2BRLO split 50/50 could lead to headaches at VDH considering how few there are.

Likewise, Tower Studios at RIV are mostly declared already, so even moving all of those to a Trust would still mean scarcity to book from for Trust owners.

I'd really hope they'd only move entire resorts into the Trust, maybe starting with CFW, skipping Poly2, and eventually including at least some of the 2042 resorts post-expiration.

 

[Sandisw]

In my above hypothetical, there are no more deeded owners, just Trust owners. Basically everything becomes bookable at 11m and the more sought after rooms get harder to book. Not realistic, but demonstrative.

This is speculation on my part, but in a more realistic scenario where Trust ownership gets 'mixed' into a resort somehow, and there's a combo of both deeded owners and Trust owners, I can't foresee these two ownership groups having a shared inventory. I'd suspect there'd be a revolt if Trust owners could book from the same broader inventory as deeded owners (who revolts is probably up to the balance between the two).

I would hope Trust and deeded owners could book from inventories representative of the collective ownership of the Trust and individual deeds, respectively. There's an existing system that could be used to support this: declaration units. But whole units would need to be moved into the Trust.

But even a clean, 50/50 mix could be tough at some resorts. For example, VDH has just 2 GVs and giving each ownership pool just 1 of them seems like it would cause booking headaches. Even 2BR/2BRLO split 50/50 could lead to headaches at VDH considering how few there are.

Likewise, Tower Studios at RIV are mostly declared already, so even moving all of those to a Trust would still mean scarcity to book from for Trust owners.

I'd really hope they'd only move entire resorts into the Trust, maybe starting with CFW, skipping Poly2, and eventually including at least some of the 2042 resorts post-expiration.

Just had a thought about how Poly tower could go into a trust situation and still be part of PVB.

Think AKV. Same association but different buildings. So, Poly tower rooms could all put into the trust and no deeded ownership sold and PVB stays deeded?

Since they have to amend the PVN POS to add the tower rooms, I wonder if they can make phase them in other than as deeded ownerships??

 

[ehh]

Just had a thought about how Poly tower could go into a trust situation and still be part of PVB.

Think AKV. Same association but different buildings. So, Poly tower rooms could all put into the trust and no deeded ownership sold and PVB stays deeded?

Since they have to amend the PVN POS to add the tower rooms, I wonder if they can make phase them in other than as deeded ownerships??

I agree this seems doable, but wouldn’t this mean that Poly2 would effectively be non-bookable for Poly1 owners and vice-versa at 11m?

Would defeat a primary benefit of having the same association.

 

[Sandisw]

I agree this seems doable, but wouldn’t this mean that Poly2 would effectively be non-bookable for Poly1 owners and vice-versa at 11m?

Would defeat a primary benefit of having the same association.

With my thinking, it would because when it’s added to PVB, it would be added differently and that members if the trust and owners of PVB get the 11 month window.

Now, because the new units are put into the trust but not the rooms at PVB that are deeded to indivual owners, the members of the trust would not be given access to the PVB rooms until 7 months because DVD would not enter any points deeded to those rooms into the trust. This way, it keeps it clean?

Home resort rules have to be the same for booking but DVD remains the owner of the points via the trust and they dibt have to use those points to book the original rooms, right?

Maybe it can’t work but it seems like it could? I mean they were able to add fixed weeks as part of the resorts so it seems like can add special circumstances for rooms when they add them to PVB?

And, maybe it’s not all the tower rooms but some?

But hey, at least we know have something else to speculate about for future moves DVD could surprise us and make!!! Lol

 

[Genie+]

Could explain the vagueness around the Poly Tower. Without divulging the trust, they limit how to broach the subject. Neither Poly same or different association suffice if a trust is to be mixed in. Are they dancing around it so as not to cross timeshare law? Just stick with Tower will be part of Poly Resort because it’s actually what nobody is expecting.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

and owners would be making a HUGE mistake to convert their fixed deeds to a trust.

Yup. It’s a suckers bet.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Thinking out loud. If I am DVD, and filed paperwork to create a trust like this and want to move the product in that direction…I am adding some of Poly tower, CFW, and VDH to it as well as RIV and AUL undeclared units.

Then, those that are buying into this “trust” now have booking rights for five resorts right off the bat,

Then, the trust gets into an agreement with BVTC, to allow its members to trade into the other DVC resorts, including the regular declared units that are deeded at RIV, VDH, and AUL at the 7 month mark.

Seems like the best of all worlds…but, again, I don’t know how it can work in practice but it certainly seems like it could.

I think this overcomplicates it. I don’t see why the trust can’t acquire points in fully declared resorts as well. It’s timeshare industry standard, and the language DVC uses seems pretty standard compared to other systems (like Marriott, Wyndham, etc.) that have similar systems and are easily able to add points from “sold out” resorts by acquiring them through deedbacks, ROFR & foreclosures.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

1. You'd go from owning an actual deed to owning a promise and air.
2. There's no guarantee that these points would be as generous a structure for these rooms as the other structure existing owners have.
3. You'd be paying dues that will need to cover the costs at the most expensive properties.
4. You're in the soup bidding with everyone else on all the properties in there.
5. Disney wouldn't be exploring this unless they thought it was a better deal for them than the current system.

among other reasons.

The biggest one is that you’re also paying way more vig on the conversion than if you just bought it directly (or resale). And, since DVC resale has value (unlike most timeshare systems), you’re giving up something with value, for nothing, to spend more money, to “upgrade” your points. I think the points might be useful on their own, purchased resale. However I think it would always be a mistake to pay a fee to “upgrade,” unless maybe you own at VB or HHI. You’re basically paying extra money to take a product you already own and make it worth less.