DVC and other TShare owners

[Maistre Gracey]

Personnally, I would MUCH rather have a leasehold on a Disney property than to "own" a perpetually deeded timeshare at any of the nonDisney properties that are out there. In my opinion, the other Orlando timeshare options are cheaper than buying Disney points for a reason.

Perfectly stated, Tammy.

When we were looking at DVC we knew that it expired in 2042. We also knew there were off site properties that lasted forever.

Guess what???... We chose DVC!!!

Only speaking for myself here, but if I was given an off site timeshare for free, I would somehow discard it.
I know there are some reputable outfits out there, but we opted not to burden our future with an annual fee and assessment at an old resort.
There are also some yucky timeshares out there. My wife and I looked at some joint in Massachusetts, and almost gagged.

You see Z, DVC is what I want, and nothing else will do!

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

You say potatoes, I say potatos. Who cares what it is called? It's really rather an immaterial point to argue. Whatever you want to call it, I know:

• At some X point in the future my lease/ownership/rental/whatever will expire and I will receive no more value in it.
• My lease/ownership/rental/whatever cost me MUCH more than a traditional time share would cost.
• Even though in X number of years in the future, my points will expire - that means for X years my family (and most likely my daughter's children) will enjoy something that I've paid for.
• Until most likely x-10 years, I can sell my DVC if I needed to and *make money*. My parents, who owned a timeshare that they suddenly found themselves unable to use anymore got literally taken to the cleaners trying to resell it. At x years from now, I could literally care less that it just 'ends' because I will have gotten my money's worth many times over.
• I can use my points anywhere, anytime, anyhow I want. Take a cruise? Sure! African Safari? Sure! Hawaian vacation? Sure? Grand Floridian stay as a wedding present? Sure! Stay at literally hundreds of high quality resorts across the nation? Sure! Trade out to stay at hundreds more other Timeshare resorts? Sure! Let me know of any other time shares that allow you that kind of flexibility that hold their value well and I'll look into being a member/owner/leasee there also!

You even go on to talk about 'distressed' DVC points for sale/rent. I would tend to think that because there are many, many more 'normal' timeshares out there, that you could find many many more distressed timeshares available. But that's just a guess.

I could go on. And on. But I really won't change your mind and you won't change mind. What you may not realize is the large majority of us DVC Owners aren't in it for an investment, or a way to make money. It's a way for us to vacation in style while we are still young enough to enjoy it.

We're all collectively glad that you have benefitted well from those distressed points. Score one more for happy DVC Vacationers, both member or non member.

Man oh man, another good post!
I guess I'm hanging around with the right crowd these days!

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Residents of Florida certainly appreciate the "bed tax" money that you folks provide.

Hey Z, if your still around...

What is a "bed tax"?

MG

 

[Chris and Pooh]

I bought into DVC because I liked the product pure and simple, I could and have been able to rent villas for less than the annual maintenance fees let alone the initial outlay but I wanted a product that I felt was more exclusive and with a name I feel I can trust, I did not buy it as an investment, however I have seen the current resale costs and they are holding up much better than anything I have seen currently offered in the UK.
To put things in perpsective I have recently bought a timeshare which is primarily centred in Spain, the previous owners paid $16000 for one floating week for a two bed apartment in 2001.
They could not even give it away as the residual value is virtually nil and they would have been charged to surrender it, we took it over and gave them a small amount for the timeshare and will hopefully make full use of it

Chris and Bev SSR members since Sep 2003

Oct 1996
Nov 1997
Oct 1999
Oct 2001
Sep 2003
Oct 2004

 

[rantnnravin]

so let me get this straight, Z
I open a card shop in a local strip mall, i do not "own" the property that my storefront sits on - i lease it from a developer -- so, therefore,
i am NOT the store-owner??
interesting thought process

 

[JimC]

Hey Z, if your still around...

What is a "bed tax"?

MG

MG -- I believe the poster is referring to the resort taxes that Florida and many other states and locals add to the cost of lodging. It is an easy tax to add because the people who pay it most often don't vote where it is levied. We don't pay that tax on our DVC accommodations -- another factor that contributes to our savings.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

MG -- I believe the poster is referring to the resort taxes that Florida and many other states and locals add to the cost of lodging. It is an easy tax to add because the people who pay it most often don't vote where it is levied. We don't pay that tax on our DVC accommodations -- another factor that contributes to our savings.

Thanx Jim, that's what I thought.
It kind of threw me because Z implied that we were paying some sort of nightly tax.

Perhaps Z is mistaken...

MG

 

[Dean]

when the finally 10 years are here - if WDW is still going great - guess what those prices won't be down. Instead WDW will buying back the contracts and RENTING out the villa.... they are very, very good at doing this. and they would before they let anyone stay onsite without a major investment....

Pat, I couldn't disagree more. Heck, CRO isn't that good at renting out the weeks they get from DVC now. And while I think DVC will still have some value at 10 years out, I seriously doubt it will be anywhere near the percentage it is now compared to nightly rates or adjusted for inflation. But we won't know for sure until the time comes will we, LOL.

Zmsksirt, there is some truth to what you say. There certainly are cheaper alternatives. DVC is right for one group and one only, those willing to invest in deluxe options to stay on property at WDW. Even then they should avoid going mostly on weekends. However, you are way off base in your attitude toward DVC. For the right owner, DVC is by far the best vehicle to accomplish the task. DVC is a leasehold property. We can argue over deeds, RTU, etc but all that is academic, it means nothing one way or another. Whether DVC is the most expensive folly or the best vacation investment for a person totally depends on how they use it and their vacation preferences. There are many RTU properties that are highly desirable. The thinking that deeded means good and RTU bad is, in and of itself, a flawed thinking. I own RTU at DVC and MX and deeded for several Marriott weeks. I also own true Hybrids in Aruba where they are RTU but with an automatically renewing lease and the government must buy the existing buildings if they take it back at 60 years.

It is true that later in the term this balance will shift and continue to do so. Given the free passes and use I've had, I'd already paid for my DVC points, all of them. Even if I use Motel 6 prices for the baseline value of the nights I've stayed. If I walked away, I would still be ahead. Thankfully I can sell for more than I paid for them but this too will change at some point. Not many timeshares can say their product, RTU or not, has appreciated over time and that includes almost all Marriott resort even for pre-construction prices. In some ways, not having to be tied to the property forever is likely a good thing but it depends on the resot. The Whaler owners just got a Special assessment that essentially doubled their yearly fees, which were high already. Even the Kauai Marriott has had significant Special Assessments and given the flood damage there, they can count on more SA in the future.

I'm not aware that DVC didn't have deeds. I have a friend who bought in 1992 and one of my contracts I bought resale was originally bought in 1992, both had deeds. If they waited, it was less than a year. I think there are others on this board who bought even earlier, maybe they'll have the info.

Considering that most all timeshare weeks were bought retail at one point or another and that most timeshares are worth pennies on the dollar, no matter how poor a choice DVC is, it's a lot better choice than AT LEAST 98% of those that bought retail. DVC is not for everyone but it is great for those that see value in staying at deluxe resorts on WDW property. And it is a very flexible system with high fees but essentially no add on fees. It is not for one happy to buy somewhere like SA, Foxrun or Australia and trade to easy to get places like non DVC Orlando, or Branson.

 

[Zmsksirt]

Thanx Jim, that's what I thought.
It kind of threw me because Z implied that we were paying some sort of nightly tax.

Perhaps Z is mistaken...

MG

Actually, I was referring to that portion of your annual dues that goes toward property tax.

 

[Pedler]

This is something that I have been researching and I just want to make sure I have my info straight. I was reading the other posters comments about renting points vs. owning them. I came up with the following scenario:

To stay at in a 1 bedroom at the Wilderness for August 2006 would require 252 points. If I could somehow buy that exact number at the going rate of $90 per point it would cost $22,680. The Annual fees would be $1,161. The lost opportunity cost, using a rate of return of 4% would be $907. (Yes, I could probably get more than 4 percent but taking into account taxes and inflation 4% seemed to be a safe number to throw around.) Then I also have to take into account that at the end of it all the points have no value. So over the course of aproximately 35 years (Is that right?) I would lose the $22,680 initial investment. Dividing that over the 35 years it comes out to $648 per year (Yes, I know that it isn't a straight line depreciation. It is probably very flat for the next 15-20 years and then it would accelerate exponentially. I just want to keep it simple for now). So my total annual cost over the life of ownership is $1,161 + $907 + $648. A total of $2,716 per year.

On the other hand I could rent the 252 points each year and pay $2520. This would cost me a bit less per year and I don't have to have a large upfront investment. I am also not locked into going to WDW every year as part of my return. On the downside I have to negotiate every year to get points. There are no guarantees and I don't get the other DVC benefits.

Owning on the other hand costs a bit more but has other benefits and puts you in control of going. In essence it is a prepaid guaranteed Disney Vacation. I am assuming that there are some other discounts on things like AP and such that make up for the aproximately $200 monthly difference. If not there is also the peace of mind that you are in control, i.e. not renting points from a stranger each year, of you Disney Vacation.

So looking at it that way it seems that if you want to go to Disney enough to use your points for yourself, and it doesn't have to be every year, it could be every 2 years, and you want more upscale accomodations then DVC would make sense. Financially you might be able to save some money and not be locked into going to Disney as part of the justification but the assumption is that your prime reason to get the points is to use them yourself.

If on the other hand you are more of the mindset where you may not want to go to Disney as often or are not sure that you will want to go on a regular basis for the next 35 years then DVC may not be the best alternative. It may be better to just rent points when you need them.

Does that make sense?

Edited to add: It still puts me in the bind of wanting a DVC type point system but one that includes lots of resorts outside of DVC. I have a sinking feeling that what I want doesn't really exit.

 

[Dean]

Pedler, assuming that exact scenario, it's about a break even. But the differences are that you almost certainly will not be able to rent for that price ongoing, expect it to go up as well. And while dues may go up, that is only a portion of your scenario and thus rental costs are likely to go up far more than the dues would. If you rented directly from CRO, your costs would be even more and your nest egg would be decreasing in value yearly. Of course the 1 BR is likely the worst case scenario. If you compared to a studio or a 2 BR compared to 2 deluxe or moderate rooms and avoided weekends in part or in total, you could do far better but you could do better by renting or buying. And as you point out, it's likely you could sell at some point and come out ahead of your worst case scenario. And while I don't think the perks alone are worth it for MOST people, they are for some.

 

[Pedler]

Pedler, assuming that exact scenario, it's about a break even. But the differences are that you almost certainly will not be able to rent for that price ongoing, expect it to go up as well. And while dues may go up, that is only a portion of your scenario and thus rental costs are likely to go up far more than the dues would. If you rented directly from CRO, your costs would be even more and your nest egg would be decreasing in value yearly. Of course the 1 BR is likely the worst case scenario. If you compared to a studio or a 2 BR compared to 2 deluxe or moderate rooms and avoided weekends in part or in total, you could do far better but you could do better by renting or buying. And as you point out, it's likely you could sell at some point and come out ahead of your worst case scenario. And while I don't think the perks alone are worth it for MOST people, they are for some.

I think I was trying to come up with the most conservative scenario that I could easily document in a just a few minutes. Using the rate for booking it direct through CRO would be the best apple to apple comparison. It also didnt' take into account someone that would not own until the end but may just want to own for 10 years or so. They may not see any depreciation or may see an appreciation in value.

I guess what I was trying to say is that if you want to go to Disney on a regular basis and want better accomodations the DVC could make sense. If on the other hand you were more in my scenario where you want a timeshare that would would only use once every 4 years or so for Disney but want to use it for other things in the other years DVC may not be the best choice financially.

 

[Dean]

I guess what I was trying to say is that if you want to go to Disney on a regular basis and want better accomodations the DVC could make sense. If on the other hand you were more in my scenario where you want a timeshare that would would only use once every 4 years or so for Disney but want to use it for other things in the other years DVC may not be the best choice financially.

I believe I've said both on numerous occasions. DVC is only for DVC resorts. And even then, not for all possible choices.

 

[jfulcer]

You've hit the nail on the head! I agree with you. Youth, inexperience and money are the best friends of the DVC.

You just have no clue about demographics do you? I am 36 and don't consider myself youthful and inexperienced. I'm certainly not 'over hill' though... As a matter of fact the only other DVC Owners I know personally are much older than I am.

I do consider myself wise when it comes to spending my money and just couldn't stand shelling out large amounts of cash for what pretty much was a room with a bed, toilet, shower and TV that you get at regular hotels - and even Disney resorts.

Sure, I can get really cheap hotels both offsite and onsite, but I'd rather enjoy the time that I have to spend in my room if I need to do so.

Alas, I get the feeling from your posts that you enjoy baiting those of us DVC Owners that are even trying to reply to you. I wouldn't really be surprised if you didn't work for Marriott or some 'other' timeshare company and the big green monster makes you want to put down the competition.