Down Syndrome child, corporal punishment & school.. need input.. long

[summerrluvv]

Wow I'm sickened and saddened by this. Especially being that it's a special needs student who probably doesn't have the mental capacity to even understand why he/she is being punished. This just seems wrong on so many levels. Although I guess if the childs parents don't care, it doesn't matter. I can't imagine being a Principal though and spending my day spanking kids, let alone special needs kids. Sounds somewhat disturbing to me.

 

[tw1nsmom]

A teacher/principal would have to run long and fast if they EVER laid a hand on either DD or DS.

However, in most states, DS would be more likely to be a victim of abuse (legally) at the hands of an educator than DD would.

In NY state corporal punishment in schools is against the law for typically developing children. However, if a child has an IEP and has had a functional behavior assessment it could be determined that physical aversives can be used. This is the case in most states. In NY, because of great harm coming to some children with special needs, a new law was passed and the district would need to go through the state department of education for approval. Fortunately, we also have what is called status quo. If a parent disagrees with a proposed treatment plan then the new plan can't be implemented until it goes through court proceedings. So a parent faced with a functional behavior assessment that gives permission for physical aversives could put it on hold at least. If the court ruled against the parents then the only recourse (besides going up the legal ladder) would be to remove their child from school. Their child could be beaten as part of a "treatment plan" without their permission.

Things are even grimmer in most states. In 2004 the federal special education law was updated (IDEA) and status quo was removed as a federal requirement. That means that, unless your state added status quo back in to their laws (states can offer more, not less than federal law), a child could have physical aversives put into their IEP/functional behavior assessment without parental approval. The suggested IEP would be put into place until the parents took them to court to require them to stop. In this case a parent could have signed the opt out letter for standard corporal punishment, but if the school tacked on physical aversives to the child's IEP they would be within their rights under the law.

Most parents of special needs children are unaware of their rights and the lengthy process needed to reverse the decisions of the school.

One area where the district in question could be in trouble is that if they don't have physical aversives listed under a child's functional behavior assessment, then they cannot punish a child from a behavior directly resulting from their disability. This would be absolutely impossible for the OP the prove and practically impossible for the parents to prove either.

If I were the OP I would be lobbying for an end to corporal punishment in your school for all students. I'm working with an organization of parent advocates to make it illegal for special needs children, but it's slow going.

 

[Wishing on a star]

That said, there are many parts of the law that protect a child with special needs from abuse.

Sorry, but that is simply not really true.

In many states, the school system can actually use a child's disability as the reason for abuse. The horror stories are simply unbelieveable.

An IEP should be a way for a parent to protect a child. But, as a parent, I know that in most every single instance, the school will completely refuse to alter or curtail any disciplinary option at their disposal. Period. This simply will never, ever, be written into any IEP. There are cases of moderately autistic children being severely punished (even physically) and expelled from the public school system, or relagated to 'alternative' school along with children who have been criminally involved and who have very serious behavioral/emotional/drug/etc. issues.

One of the reasons my special needs son will never set foot back into the public schools here (one of those southern states which does allow for corporal punishment) is because I have seen how special needs children are not handled appropriately. I simply can not, as a parent, subject my son to that.


Having said all of the above...
As long as the parents have to sign permission.
And this child's parent(s) are misguided enough to have signed...

 

[summerrluvv]

Wow that was enlightening to read. I'm in NY and have a child with an IEP who has PDD and ADHD. I don't believe my son's IEP says anything about physical aversives, but now I'm going to check. Do they usually sneakily throw that in? I'm so disgusted right now

 

[tw1nsmom]

Wow that was enlightening to read. I'm in NY and have a child with an IEP who has PDD and ADHD. I don't believe my son's IEP says anything about physical aversives, but now I'm going to check. Do they usually sneakily throw that in? I'm so disgusted right now

It would certainly be worth checking, but in New York state you have many more protections than children/parents in other states.

 

[freepixie]

Corporal punishment in schools remains legal in 21 U.S. states and is used frequently in 13: Missouri, Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and Florida, according to data received from the Office for Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education and cited in the report.
n addition, special education students with mental or physical disabilities were more likely to receive corporal punishment, according to the ACLU and Human Rights Watch.


wow, such cultural differences in the South as opposed to up here in the North,

Wow I had NO idea that it was still legal in our country!! All I know is I could and would lose my job if I even so much as thought about harming a child in my care!! And as an educator, I would never imagine physically harming a child (let alone emotionally harming, there are some that do but I refuse!)

OP, I would talk with other parents at your school to see if a bunch of you feel the same way, maybe start a petition and take it to the board of Education in your area.

 

[ilovejack02]

Wow I had NO idea that it was still legal in our country!! All I know is I could and would lose my job if I even so much as thought about harming a child in my care!! And as an educator, I would never imagine physically harming a child (let alone emotionally harming, there are some that do but I refuse!)

OP, I would talk with other parents at your school to see if a bunch of you feel the same way, maybe start a petition and take it to the board of Education in your area.

Once I get my head together .. I will start to talk to other parents in the area and start some sort of movement towards ending corporal punishment in our parish.

Just a note to all... YES Louisiana does allow spanking.. BUT not all school districts allow it.

I live outside of Baton Rouge and they do not allow spanking in public schools.
Problem with B.R. schools is that they are HORRIBLE.

 

[marshallandcartersmo]

Just a note to the OP, and this is no flame whatsoever......honestly. If you do write a letter, or get a campaign going......when refering to the child please refer to him/her as "A child with Downs Syndrome", not "A Downs Syndrome child".

My next door neighbor has Downs, and I've learned so much from his mother. She said something to me a few months ago that really made an impact. He/she FIRST is a child, the Downs Syndrome comes second.

 

[Bluestars]

I think it's sad that a special needs child can be hit at school and that it is legal to do so. I feel so sorry for that child. I can't imagine allowing anyone to hit my child, let alone a special needs child.

 

[ilovejack02]

Just a note to the OP, and this is no flame whatsoever......honestly. If you do write a letter, or get a campaign going......when refering to the child please refer to him/her as "A child with Downs Syndrome", not "A Downs Syndrome child".

My next door neighbor has Downs, and I've learned so much from his mother. She said something to me a few months ago that really made an impact. He/she FIRST is a child, the Downs Syndrome comes second.

I can honestly say this isnt about anyone having Down's .. Im just mad that they spank kids.
Im mad that if they legally can do it.. they do not respect the children's privacy.
HECK I am JUST MAD.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

I am currently a student teacher in special ed, so here are my two cents:

As others have said, children with Down Syndrome can be anywhere from pretty much neurotypical to profoundly delayed. Chances are that she is fairly significantly delayed if she has an aide. With children with developmental disabilities, punishments like time out don't always work. So you have to find other ways.

With that being said, all of the kids with Down Syndrome I have worked with were "merely" delayed. They did not have the social or sensory issues that often make normal punishments ineffective with children with special ed. In fact, the ones that I have personally worked with found time out to be much more aversive than a neurotypical child. Now, this is just my experience, and obviously every child is different.

However, you never use corporal punishment on a special ed child. Or any child for that matter. Sometimes it takes creativity, but there are other (typically more effective) ways to manage misbehavior. The thing you have to realize is that these kids will often misbehave at a higher rate than their neurotypical peers. It is part of the territory. I would never even consider coproral punishment on a behavior plan, and I don't know any teacher that would. What happened is wrong on so many levels. I wish you luck with your quest. I would do the exact same thing in your shoes.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

A teacher/principal would have to run long and fast if they EVER laid a hand on either DD or DS.

However, in most states, DS would be more likely to be a victim of abuse (legally) at the hands of an educator than DD would.

In NY state corporal punishment in schools is against the law for typically developing children. However, if a child has an IEP and has had a functional behavior assessment it could be determined that physical aversives can be used. This is the case in most states. In NY, because of great harm coming to some children with special needs, a new law was passed and the district would need to go through the state department of education for approval. Fortunately, we also have what is called status quo. If a parent disagrees with a proposed treatment plan then the new plan can't be implemented until it goes through court proceedings. So a parent faced with a functional behavior assessment that gives permission for physical aversives could put it on hold at least. If the court ruled against the parents then the only recourse (besides going up the legal ladder) would be to remove their child from school. Their child could be beaten as part of a "treatment plan" without their permission.

Things are even grimmer in most states. In 2004 the federal special education law was updated (IDEA) and status quo was removed as a federal requirement. That means that, unless your state added status quo back in to their laws (states can offer more, not less than federal law), a child could have physical aversives put into their IEP/functional behavior assessment without parental approval. The suggested IEP would be put into place until the parents took them to court to require them to stop. In this case a parent could have signed the opt out letter for standard corporal punishment, but if the school tacked on physical aversives to the child's IEP they would be within their rights under the law.

Most parents of special needs children are unaware of their rights and the lengthy process needed to reverse the decisions of the school.

One area where the district in question could be in trouble is that if they don't have physical aversives listed under a child's functional behavior assessment, then they cannot punish a child from a behavior directly resulting from their disability. This would be absolutely impossible for the OP the prove and practically impossible for the parents to prove either.

If I were the OP I would be lobbying for an end to corporal punishment in your school for all students. I'm working with an organization of parent advocates to make it illegal for special needs children, but it's slow going.

I'm going to disagree with the bolded statement. A parent has to sign off on an IEP or behavior plan. If the parent won't agree to it, the school cannot legally implement it. The school has the option of taking the parents to court through due process, but most will not. Really, the schools are just afraid of the families as the families are of the schools. I don't think families realize how much power they truly have in the process. I can't count the number of kids who were not receiving services because the parents refused or had goals or objectives or behavior plans thrown out because the parents didn't like them. The only thing is, if your child has no behavior plan, then they are subject to the same punishments as any other child up to and including expulsion.

Wow that was enlightening to read. I'm in NY and have a child with an IEP who has PDD and ADHD. I don't believe my son's IEP says anything about physical aversives, but now I'm going to check. Do they usually sneakily throw that in? I'm so disgusted right now

Physical aversives and corporal punishments are not the same thing. For instance: We use two physical aversives with a child with autism: Toe touches and shaving cream on the hand. Time Out and similar punishments do not work for him because to him it is reinforcing. Toe touches or shaving cream are not painful, but he doesn't like it. The same way time out in a corner is not painful for a neurotypical child, but they do not like it.

Corporal punishment inflicts pain (spanking). That would have to be written into a behavior plan. Other aversives I am not sure about, but a good school will inform you of them. In the vast majority of cases, if the school is deviating from their schoolwide behavior plan, the kid has to have an fBA and a behavior plan. Most schools will not deviate without these for fear of lawsuits.

I would not be worried, but there's nothing wrong with checking just to be safe.

 

[tw1nsmom]

For instance, I teach a student with autism and we use toe touches or putting shaving cream on his hand as a punishment. He finds it aversive much as a neurotypical child would find time out aversive.

You do realize that both those examples are physical aversives and the toe touches are a form of corporal punishment as well? I truly hope they're a part of an approved behavior plan that came from a functional behavior assessment. I have a real hard time with the shaving cream one. I have to assume that the child in question has a form of sensory integration disorder. You should be working on helping him to overcome the disorder and not using it as a form of punishment. As you should know, to a child with sensory issues a hand full of shaving cream can feel like torture.

 

[goofy!]

I am currently a student teacher in special ed, so here are my two cents:

As others have said, children with Down Syndrome can be anywhere from pretty much neurotypical to profoundly delayed. Chances are that she is fairly significantly delayed if she has Down's.

Absolutely NOT true. This is still the thinking of the old textbooks and thinking. It has now been found that the majority of people with Down syndrome fall in the mild to moderate range of developmental delay. So, the chances are the child is only at the worst, moderately delayed. .

With children with developmental disabilities, punishments like time out don't always work. So you have to find other ways. For instance, I teach a student with autism and we use toe touches or putting shaving cream on his hand as a punishment. He finds it aversive much as a neurotypical child would find time out aversive.

With that being said, all of the kids with Down Syndrome I have worked with were "merely" delayed. They did not have the social or sensory issues that often make normal punishments ineffective with children with special ed. In fact, the ones that I have personally worked with found time out to be much more aversive than a neurotypical child. Now, this is just my experience, and obviously every child is different.

This is correct. A child with Down syndrome is more typical than they are not typical.

However, you never use corporal punishment on a special ed child. Or any child for that matter. Sometimes it takes creativity, but there are other (typically more effective) ways to manage misbehavior. The thing you have to realize is that these kids will often misbehave at a higher rate than their neurotypical peers. It is part of the territory. I would never even consider coproral punishment on a behavior plan, and I don't know any teacher that would. What happened is wrong on so many levels. I wish you luck with your quest. I would do the exact same thing in your shoes.

My next door neighbor has Downs, and I've learned so much from his mother. She said something to me a few months ago that really made an impact. He/she FIRST is a child, the Downs Syndrome comes second.

They are children/adults first and foremost who just happen to have a third copy of that pesky 21st chromosome.

 

[FinallyBoughtDVC]

OK now this is prob. going to open a big can of worms... but Im not sure where to even begin on this ..so I thought I would ask the smart folks here on the Dis.

I picked up my DS today at school and while in the office. I noticed a lil girl with Downs in the office holding hands with a teacher or aide. The child had been crying and the aide put down a piece of paper for the secretary standing before me.
It was a corporal punishment letter.. so I now know why the poor thing is so upset.
The child and aide enter the principal's office and I hear the principal yelling at another child and then the door shuts and he is spanked.. very loudly three times. I can hear ever y hit.. and was standing prob at least 20 feet away with several people around me talking.
I about came unglued.. it took alot of self control not to storm the principal's office.
There is so much Im upset about..
Why the need to spank and yell where everyone can hear it?
Why the need to spank a child with Down's .. I dont know much about it . but cant imagine it will do much good, doesn't Downs affect a person's metal capacity ?
Why is a child's corporal punishment state letter placed where all can read it?
Im know there is more im freaked out about.. but I cant really think clearly at this moment.
I let my son's teacher know I am NOT happy .. she didnt look real happy about the situation either. She was really surprised I could hear it all.. she also is not for spanking in our schools and I think frankly surprised the new principal wasnt more professtional.... I guess ?


Im just so upset. I want to write a letter to the Principal and I am also thinking of trying to get a group together to stop our parish ( same as a county) from spanking.
I dont know where to begin.. but it would be nice to hear from someone with Down's experience . What is the medical communities thoughts on it?
Are there any reliable websites I can read up on punishment and down's.

Oh just for FYI.. you have to sign a letter to opt out of corporal punishment in our parish.. you can imagine what I signed.

This just made me want to throw up. What freaking adult hits a child? And, this "principal" considers herself an educator?

I can't believe someone in NY can get arrested for hitting a dog, yet an educated professional in Louisiana is allowed to strike another person's child.

Sick. Gross and sick. And, we invaded Iraq because they're cruel and inhuman?

 

[tw1nsmom]

I'm going to disagree with the bolded statement. A parent has to sign off on an IEP or behavior plan. If the parent won't agree to it, the school cannot legally implement it. The school has the option of taking the parents to court through due process, but most will not. Really, the schools are just afraid of the families as the families are of the schools. I don't think families realize how much power they truly have in the process. I can't count the number of kids who were not receiving services because the parents refused or had goals or objectives or behavior plans thrown out because the parents didn't like them. The only thing is, if your child has no behavior plan, then they are subject to the same punishments as any other child up to and including expulsion.




Physical aversives and corporal punishments are not the same thing. For instance: We use two physical aversives with a child with autism: Toe touches and shaving cream on the hand. Time Out and similar punishments do not work for him because to him it is reinforcing. Toe touches or shaving cream are not painful, but he doesn't like it. The same way time out in a corner is not painful for a neurotypical child, but they do not like it.

Corporal punishment inflicts pain (spanking). That would have to be written into a behavior plan. Other aversives I am not sure about, but a good school will inform you of them. In the vast majority of cases, if the school is deviating from their schoolwide behavior plan, the kid has to have an fBA and a behavior plan. Most schools will not deviate without these for fear of lawsuits.

I would not be worried, but there's nothing wrong with checking just to be safe.

I'm sorry, but you're just wrong. Maybe you need to check with your professors. You may be in a state like NY that has status quo, but many states no longer have it. For those that don't have status quo the schools can put a child in a recommended placement with the recommended accommodations while the parents go through due process. Just because NY and your state do things a certain way doesn't mean that every child has those same protections under the law.

Secondly, as I said previously, physical aversives are another name for corporal punishment. A spanking by a principal is supposed to be an aversive to the behavior that the child did to get them sent there. Shaving cream in the hand of a child with sensory integration disorder is no better and may be worse.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

Hmmm, all of my professors and text books have said the exact opposite. Perhaps they meant just for Missouri? This has me curious.

 

[FinallyBoughtDVC]

Corporal punishment in schools remains legal in 21 U.S. states and is used frequently in 13: Missouri, Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and Florida, according to data received from the Office for Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education and cited in the report.
n addition, special education students with mental or physical disabilities were more likely to receive corporal punishment, according to the ACLU and Human Rights Watch.


wow, such cultural differences in the South as opposed to up here in the North,

Holy moley...public schools allow this? What if you refuse? I haven't read the whole thread. I can't imagine striking anyone ever, never mind a child - never mind someone else's child.

I just can't wrap my head around this.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

You do realize that both those examples are physical aversives and the toe touches are a form of corporal punishment as well? I truly hope they're a part of an approved behavior plan that came from a functional behavior assessment. I have a real hard time with the shaving cream one. I have to assume that the child in question has a form of sensory integration disorder. You should be working on helping him to overcome the disorder and not using it as a form of punishment. As you should know, to a child with sensory issues a hand full of shaving cream can feel like torture.

It is not my classroom, it is another teacher's. All I know is that this was what was decided on by the parents, the teachers, and the school psychologist, not to mention one of the top research institutions in autism. (they consult with us on a regular basis). I do not personally work with this child either, so I can only comment on what I have been told. I've never seen it action, only the toe touches.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

They are children/adults first and foremost who just happen to have a third copy of that pesky 21st chromosome.

Woops goofy! I meant to say that if the child had a full time aide they were probably significantly delayed. Going back to edit that one now.