Does MCO have the new Body Scanner that everyone is chatting about?

I think you missed my analogies in the steps of DUI and TSA screening....

However in your analogy submitting to TSA and allowing full body scans would subject a person to potentially harmful radiation much in the same way that a breathalyzer or blood test would subject a person to herpes from unsanitary mouthpieces or AIDS from dirty needles. The bottom line is that a precedent has been set and one refusal has been given at the lower level it opens the possibility for arrest based on probable cause at which point a warrantless search can be administered. If a person has nothing to hide then why refuse a simple scan?



Not necessarily. The TSA has released some findings from John Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratories which conclude that radiation from the actual imaging devices is less than 10 microrem of emission, which is about the same as the passenger will endure for every two minutes of airline travel and falls within the accepted requirements of ANSI N43.17 2002 and 2009.

I don't know what type of breathalyzers you are dealing with, but all the ones I have seen (never had one btw) you are provided with a new, wrapped, sterilized mouthpiece, so no chance of herpies there. Also, the blood draws are done at a hospital so again, sterilization procedures would insure that you don't get Aids. The only reason that DUI tests such as those are constitutional without a search warrant is because the evidence would disappear in the time it takes to get a valid search warrant. The scans are more analogous with the police showing up at your door wanting to search your house. You and any rational person would say no absent a valid search warrant. The judge who issues the search warrant would not say that your refusal to allow the police in the first time constitutes a probable cause. It is not a simple scan. Many people have moral, religous or just plain privacy objections to a virtual strip search. If the TSA does not have probable cause to perform an actual strip search why do they have probable cause to perform a virtual one? I would feel slightly more at ease if the TSA was using the scans as a secondary means of search not a primary. This was what they initially said they were going to be used for. Then they suddenly were a primary means.
As for the radiation - the TSA has decided to release part of the JH report, not the report in its entirety. Our govt has does things like this in the past, withhold information from the public that it doesn't want us to have. They have also been just plain wrong about the safety of any number of things - asbestos, Thalidomide, Tuskegee, that wearing sunglasses will protect you from the effects of an atomic bomb. I am able to find out the exact amount of radiation my Iphone emits, my microwave, my tv, my digital phone etc and I am able to take what ever steps I feel I need to take precautions.
 
Does it boil down to
This is a government that derives its power from the people. I think, sometimes, The People forget how that works - how their power gets expressed so as to drive the kind of things that they want. We are a representative democracy. The main advantage of a representative democracy over a direct democracy is that representative democracy generally avoids the destructive pitfall of ochlocracy (mob mentality) that direct democracy is subject to.

So how is our government structured, here in the US? Citizens vote representatives into positions of power, based on their belief that those representatives will be both diligent (will spend the time necessary to understand all the aspects of each issue) and a trustee (will generally, though not absolutely, made discretionary decisions compatible with the voter's own personal beliefs and value). That aspect of diligence echos what's missing from direct democracy, where individuals often do not spend the time necessary to understand all the aspects of each issue.

Now, if you want a direct democracy, that's your prerogative. Start working on that now, and if you can get enough people to agree with you, to discard the governmental system that's served this nation for a couple of centuries, then you can assert that the critics approach to this issue is valid. Until then, they're just trying to change a result that is reflective of our collective perspective expressed through reasonable means, by throwing whatever crap they can into the machine to try to corrupt it to their bidding.

If you don't like this kind of thing happening, think about who you're electing to Congress. You may be shocked to learn that you're one of those principally responsible for this that you're criticizing.
 
TSA agents to me are the same as a rent-a-cop.
Then, with respect, you don't know what you're talking about. There was a big shake-up a few years ago that imposed several additional levels of criteria on TSA agents that make them nothing close to "rent-a-cops". To assume that that's what they are is not only inaccurate, but also indefensibly disrespectful.

Beyond that, beyond the fact that the criteria they have to satisfy is higher than you thought, they other qualifications are reflective of how much we citizens value adequately compensating people in those positions. If we weren't so cheap, perhaps it would be easier to respect this agents? We get what we pay for. The question is whether you're willing to take responsibility for your own part in this. With this issue, its seems to me that the whole foundation of the critics' various arguments all stem from some aspect where they refuse to accept our own collective responsibility for how things are.


So throw 'Probable Cause' out the window?
Probable cause is irrelevant since you voluntarily enter the security area. The time to decide whether or not you want to be screened is really before you get to the airport. And if you don't want to be screened, then I don't want you flying on the same aircraft as I'm on.

I'm guessing that "power trip" resides in all walks of life.
Except who's on the power trip in this case? The TSA agents are just doing their jobs as per procedures. The TSA officials are just doing what they can to best satisfy all the objectives and obligations placed on them. So it is actually the critics on the power trip, seeking to impose their own personal preference over a decision that was made in accordance with proper procedure and in the light of reasonably balancing the various aspects of the issues.
 

So I watching the news and low and behold the topic of the TSA and new screening machines come up.

So the gentlemen who is spear heading the national opt out day (I can't find his name any where) goes to the airport and opt out of the scan. On his video tape the first thing he says to the TSA agent is:

"I'd like to opt out of the scan but I'm telling you now if you touch my junk, I'm having you arrested and punching you". Ok so if I'm an agent my first thought is:

This guy is here for one reason, to start a fight, video tape it and have a lawsuit. so now it's a good chance he's going to miss his flight because I'm not letting him through and he's going to wait until I get a supervisor, a manager and an local police men so I have no "molestation" charges against me.

So now who's the bully and the thug? Can the tsa agent now press charges that this guy threaten him? I would.
 
So I watching the news and low and behold the topic of the TSA and new screening machines come up.

So the gentlemen who is spear heading the national opt out day (I can't find his name any where) goes to the airport and opt out of the scan. On his video tape the first thing he says to the TSA agent is:

"I'd like to opt out of the scan but I'm telling you now if you touch my junk, I'm having you arrested and punching you". Ok so if I'm an agent my first thought is:

This guy is here for one reason, to start a fight, video tape it and have a lawsuit. so now it's a good chance he's going to miss his flight because I'm not letting him through and he's going to wait until I get a supervisor, a manager and an local police men so I have no "molestation" charges against me.

So now who's the bully and the thug? Can the tsa agent now press charges that this guy threaten him? I would.
Thanks for sharing that. I feel you're right on-target. People like that seem to be willing to abuse others because they are unwilling to accept that they failed to put in place a government that would have naturally acceded to their own personal preferences in this specific case (putting aside the aspect that they probably would be just as self-centered in their complaining about the negative ramifications of society acceding to all such demands they'd make - some people just want everything, for free).
 
/
Wow...Quite a few good responses.

So throw 'Probable Cause' out the window? After all, if it could save people, we should be willing to go through anything? Earlier in this thread (I think) Eliza(?) talks about the security procedures in use in Israel. From what I've read (not just hear) those procedures could require HOURS (up to 5?) at the airport before your flight. They must work since El Al has never been hijacked, is it ok to implement them?

There's a pro argument in that implementing more stringent screening processes like those already in place in foreign countries would create a more secure airline industry. The down side would be that a 5 hour pre-flight arrival time would make short flights like those between DC and Newark or NYC pointless as it would take the same amount of time to drive or take the train.

I see where you are going with this. It's an interesting argument, but I don't think it applies. First, if you refuse a breathalyzer, as you point out, you'll be taken to a hospital for a true blood test. Presumably, you could refuse to give blood and fight that. In theory, what happens? What law have you broken? In the same mode, if you're picked for the WBI, refuse, then refuse the patdown, AGREE to not go through to the secure area, what laws have been broken?

I'm not 100% sure of the law, but I believe that in DUI cases once a suspect refuses the breathalyzer they must submit to the blood test. Refusal to do so is an automatic admission of guilt. If a person sets off a Walk Through Metal Detector (WTMD) and then refuses the pat down or AIT I am unsure if any actual laws have been broken, but it allows TSA to detain the passenger until such time that law enforcement can be contacted to conduct a thorough search to find what the person may or may not have been hiding. At the very least TSA can and probably will detain the suspect for a period of time that will result in a missed flight and re-booking or cancellation fees.

No, Terry stops are when the law enforcement office has reasonable suspicion that criminal activity has occurred. TSAers are not LEOs. Setting off a metal detctor is not indicative of criminal activity. Metal implants and shrapnel in the body are benign reasons to set off the alarm. So is forgetfulness . . . perhaps a spare key (or a foil wrapping) in a wallet.

I used Terry Laws as an analogy to set precedence. Refusal to submit to AIT or pat down after setting off WTMD creates reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Metal implants and shrapnel can certainly set off WTMD, but both can easily be explained by showing the officer the scar along with use of the wand for verification. Forgetfulness in placing all items into the bins is not an option. I have set off the WTMD on several occasions due to buttons, zippers, snaps, etc... and the TSA officers have always required me to step back through the WTMD and then pulled me aside for additional screening with the wand and the occasional pat down if the alarms were tripped a second or third time. The same protocols are in place where I work as well as in many high schools throughout the country.

ETA: TSA's mission is to prevent weapons and explosives off airplanes. "Contraband" such as drugs or cash is outside their mission scope.

Negative. The TSA Mission Statement says, "The Transportation Security Administration protects the Nation’s transportation systems to ensure freedom of movement for people and commerce." In keeping weapons and explosives of of airplanes how does this addition screening method not wok within the confines of the mission statement?

Also, it seems other countries have been using this type of machine as well. Why is there no "negative" data then?

Could be a couple of reasons starting with the easiest answer that the finding from JHU-APL are accurate. Could also be that other countries do not have or operate under the constant threat of FOIA being invoked.

I don't know what type of breathalyzers you are dealing with, but all the ones I have seen (never had one btw) you are provided with a new, wrapped, sterilized mouthpiece, so no chance of herpies there. Also, the blood draws are done at a hospital so again, sterilization procedures would insure that you don't get Aids.

I know, I've had a couple, but I was attempting to show the absurdity that the same safety measures would not be in place to guarantee the medical safety of the passenger when subjected to the AIT.

The only reason that DUI tests such as those are constitutional without a search warrant is because the evidence would disappear in the time it takes to get a valid search warrant.

BAC dissipates over hours whereas some weapons detonate on timers while others can be detonated remotely within seconds and as we learned on 9/11 some weapons are common everyday items. As such it could be argued that the same logic applies and that there is much more urgency in securing the evidence.

It is not a simple scan. Many people have moral, religous or just plain privacy objections to a virtual strip search.

And maybe some day TSA will contract with Hebrew National to make a Kosher AIT device, but for the time being this is the technology we have in place. Furthermore religious preferences do not allow one to circumvent established security procedures as was the case in Sultaana Freeman vs. State of Florida DMV. The case resulted in Judge Janet C. Thorpe denying the lawsuit, and a state appeals court later upheld the decision that Mrs Freeman was required to have her picture on her state issued license without her veil.
 
So I watching the news and low and behold the topic of the TSA and new screening machines come up.

So the gentlemen who is spear heading the national opt out day (I can't find his name any where) goes to the airport and opt out of the scan. On his video tape the first thing he says to the TSA agent is:

"I'd like to opt out of the scan but I'm telling you now if you touch my junk, I'm having you arrested and punching you". Ok so if I'm an agent my first thought is:

This guy is here for one reason, to start a fight, video tape it and have a lawsuit. so now it's a good chance he's going to miss his flight because I'm not letting him through and he's going to wait until I get a supervisor, a manager and an local police men so I have no "molestation" charges against me.

So now who's the bully and the thug? Can the tsa agent now press charges that this guy threaten him? I would.

Exactly how I feel. This guy went into this with the purpose of being confrontational. Why do you think he turned his phone on? He wanted his 15 minutes of fame. I hope they do prosecute him. Wonder how many people he made miss their flight because of his stunt?
 
;)A little known fact that the advocates for big brother don't want you to know:

Per the 2001 federal law that created the TSA, any U.S. airport can opt out of having the TSA bureaucrats running their security and can instead employ private contractors:

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Amid-airport-anger_-GOP-takes-aim-at-screening-1576602-108259869.html
Interesting. I didn't know that. But the article you mention does say that five airports use(d?) a private contractor instead of the TSA. The result...
contractors perform a bit better than federal screeners
.

Also
But it might create the conditions under which some of those problems could indeed be fixed.
So that is an interesting possibility, but not a guarantee that things would necessarily be better.
 
This guy went into this with the purpose of being confrontational. Why do you think he turned his phone on? He wanted his 15 minutes of fame.

The same thing was said of Bierfeldt, however the TSA backed down.



People like that seem to be willing to abuse others because they are unwilling to accept that they failed to put in place a government that would have naturally acceded to their own personal preferences in this specific case (putting aside the aspect that they probably would be just as self-centered in their complaining about the negative ramifications of society acceding to all such demands they'd make - some people just want everything, for free).

You don't think that there have been organized efforts to successfully push back against the TSA?
 
derricksonb
I used Terry Laws as an analogy to set precedence. Refusal to submit to AIT or pat down after setting off WTMD creates reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Metal implants and shrapnel can certainly set off WTMD, but both can easily be explained by showing the officer the scar along with use of the wand for verification. Forgetfulness in placing all items into the bins is not an option. I have set off the WTMD on several occasions due to buttons, zippers, snaps, etc... and the TSA officers have always required me to step back through the WTMD and then pulled me aside for additional screening with the wand and the occasional pat down if the alarms were tripped a second or third time. The same protocols are in place where I work as well as in many high schools throughout the country.

Let's look at the situation of "don't touch my junk..." The guy did not alarm the WTMD.
The TSA no longer uses a wand. They stopped that when they went to the "enhanced" pat down.
You really want to show the TSA the shrapnel scars on your butt?
I'm OK with multiple passes through the WTMD if I or anyone "forgot" some metal . . .
 
So I watching the news and low and behold the topic of the TSA and new screening machines come up.

So the gentlemen who is spear heading the national opt out day (I can't find his name any where) goes to the airport and opt out of the scan. On his video tape the first thing he says to the TSA agent is:

"I'd like to opt out of the scan but I'm telling you now if you touch my junk, I'm having you arrested and punching you". Ok so if I'm an agent my first thought is:

This guy is here for one reason, to start a fight, video tape it and have a lawsuit. so now it's a good chance he's going to miss his flight because I'm not letting him through and he's going to wait until I get a supervisor, a manager and an local police men so I have no "molestation" charges against me.

So now who's the bully and the thug? Can the tsa agent now press charges that this guy threaten him? I would.

Sorry, but the bolded part was not uttered by Tyner. I don't know whether you just made it up or whether you picked it up on some blog somewhere, but he did not say it. It isn't on his tape and it isn't in the article you cited.

Since he complied with every request of TSA, other than to go through the scanner or submit to a search of his junk, I don't buy your arguement that he was looking for a fight. Tyner certainly did not bully anyone.
 
And give up a golden opportunity to moon a bunch of federal officers???? :rotfl2:

What officers? :rotfl2: They aren't military and they aren't law enforcement. They are just unarmed (thankfully) folks that have to wear a prescribed "uniform" to work.
 
Sorry, but the bolded part was not uttered by Tyner. I don't know whether you just made it up or whether you picked it up on some blog somewhere, but he did not say it. It isn't on his tape and it isn't in the article you cited.

Since he complied with every request of TSA, other than to go through the scanner or submit to a search of his junk, I don't buy your arguement that he was looking for a fight. Tyner certainly did not bully anyone.

Sorry I thought the 2nd post with the correction was obvious. the first post I said I couldn't find the guys name or information. The 2nd post with the article link is where you will find the correct information. I apologize

As a rule I generally don't go making stuff up. LOL. if only that were true with the allegations against the TSA agents.
 
found the story. sorry for the confusion.

Guys name was John Tyner and he ended up getting tossed out of the airport. now of course he says he didn't mean it and said it with a "half smile" on his face.

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/john-tyner-tsa-security-check-sexual-molestation/story?id=12153388


He was interviewed by Megan Kelly on Fox yesterday and he sort-of admitted he bought a ticket totally planning on picking a fight with the TSA on the issue and sort-of expected how it was going to end.

But he got his point across - I don't agree with it, but he made his point, so in his mind, he is happy he did it.
 
He was interviewed by Megan Kelly on Fox yesterday and he sort-of admitted he bought a ticket totally planning on picking a fight with the TSA on the issue and sort-of expected how it was going to end.

But he got his point across - I don't agree with it, but he made his point, so in his mind, he is happy he did it.

Of course he's happy. so now we've got people running around claiming the TSA agents (who have absolutely no authority to change a blessed things) are rapist, molestors and every other things. Gearing up before they even get to the airport that they are already going to fight, so before the TSA agent can even open his/her mouth there is absolutely nothing they can say that is going to be good.

Yet, they are the ones being vilified and as you can see by the tone of post above anyone who could really care less, or anyone who has no problem with the scanners, well of course we are supporters of "big brother" :rolleyes:


It reminds me of that scene in beauty and the beast, the one where Bell shows the townspeople a picture of the beast in the enchanted mirror and of course Gaston whips the townspeople into a mindless frenzy. I think he even tells them in one scene that the beast will steal their children to eat. I wouldn't be surprised if passsengers show up at the airports with pitchforks and burning fagots singing "kill the beast".
 














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