Do you think a college professor has the right to do this?

[tomthebarncat]

Thanks for the update. Had your niece talked to the prof, or someone else in the first place she might have been able to be moved into that morning class as soon as her work schedule changed. It pays to act like an adult

I think the professor DID give her some leeway and understanding. He let the late entrances slide for three weeks. Plenty of time for her to let him know if there was a permanent problem (like she had), figure out parking if that was the issue, resolve a temporary issue like a sick child or late babysitter, etc.

I had professors who locked the door at the start of class. Never bothered me--I made efforts to be there on time always and if something truly unavoidable came up and made me late (happened once that i can remember with a professor who locked doors), I read in the hallway until class was over and approached the professor after class to explain why I was not there and to ask if I needed to do anything to make up for the absence (and to way lay a classmate so I could copy their notes).

I also had a professor that used to lock the door until I mentioned it was a fire hazard, he agreed and had to find other creative ways for dealing with late students. I think he just posted a note on the door asking not to be disturbed if class was in session. I also believe the the OP's niece brought this issue upon her self when she made the decision not to discuss her schedule with the class professor.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I also had a professor that used to lock the door until I mentioned it was a fire hazard, he agreed and had to find other creative ways for dealing with late students. I think he just posted a note on the door asking not to be disturbed if class was in session. I also believe the the OP's niece brought this issue upon her self when she made the decision not to discuss her schedule with the class professor.

We had the kind of doors that could always be opened from the inside. Locking them only preventing people from getting IN not OUT. I agree that the OP's niece brought the commotion on herself. It is a little sad that the OP thinks she will not learn anything from this and would likely react in the same way again.

 

[WDWBlue]

I also had a professor that used to lock the door until I mentioned it was a fire hazard, he agreed and had to find other creative ways for dealing with late students. I think he just posted a note on the door asking not to be disturbed if class was in session. I also believe the the OP's niece brought this issue upon her self when she made the decision not to discuss her schedule with the class professor.

How is it a fire hazard? You can leave the room you just can't enter.

 

[tomthebarncat]

How is it a fire hazard? You can leave the room you just can't enter.

Actually at the time 1992, the door was locked inside and if there was fire we would have trampled each other to get out or had to crawl through windows. I am sure that fire code has changed since then, but as a social work student I did feel the need to point out it was a fire hazard!

 

[luvsJack]

Wow. Read this thread way back and meant to respond, didn't and come back to find all the usual judgmental BS going on.

I have been/am a college student (community college and university) and am also a college employee. Our COLLEGE makes the attendance rules for a class, not the instructor. The only instructors that can have a different policy than the college are the medical programs that cannot allow absences during clincals and the students cannot be late for clinicals.

Any academic class has a 15 minute policy--so 10 minutes would not have been an issue. And even then the students have so many days of being more than 15 minutes late (which would equal an absence) before they can be cut from the class. Additionally, if one of our instructors decided a student is "no longer welcome" in their classroom, the student has due process to challange it. Unless the instructor has a darn good reason for throwing the student out of class, chances are he/she is coming back. We have had students allowed back in class that were caught cheating because the instructor didn't do things the correct way. (student did receive a 0 for the paper, though)

So, in some instances, the instructor would not have totally been within his rights to put this student out of class.

OP, I am glad that your neice worked it out. She needs to remember that any time she has an issue to go first to the instructor and then to the person over the academic classes--dean of academics, director of academics or a smilar title. At most community colleges, someone will be willing to help her out, they won't just hang her out to dry.

 

[WDWBlue]

E. None of the above. She went to talk to someone about it, and they offered her a slot in a morning class, which now fits her schedule. She also found out that the professor WAS within his rights to say what he said.... HOWEVER, she was also told that professors are told that they should give night time adult students some slack when it comes to being late, as they tend to have more responsibilities than FT students.

I waited until I got a chance to ask her before posting an answer.

Personally, my thoughts have changed a little, but not all that much. I was in college over a period of 6 years working on a Bachelors and Master's degree, and I have to say, if someone quietly walked in and sat down, there is no way that would have distracted me, even during a test - at least not enough to care about.... And I know my niece. I am sure she was quiet until she felt like the professor went beyond where he needed to go.

She also now realizes that there would probably have been no issue had she told him first. But also, knowing her, she might say the same things again if it happened again. But I 100% believe her when she told me she tried to be as quiet as possible upon entering a class.

How quiet is quiet enough? Pretty subjective if you ask me. Clearly, whatever you thought was quiet enough, was not quiet enough. It got her removed from the class.

 

[crashbb]

We had the kind of doors that could always be opened from the inside. Locking them only preventing people from getting IN not OUT. I agree that the OP's niece brought the commotion on herself. It is a little sad that the OP thinks she will not learn anything from this and would likely react in the same way again.

Why should she change? Even her uncle still thinks she was "mainly" in the right. It seems that the only person* telling her that she acted incorrectly is the professor (who she just thinks is a jerk).

*Assuming that we are willing to believe that the neice isn't reading here.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Wow. Read this thread way back and meant to respond, didn't and come back to find all the usual judgmental BS going on.

I have been/am a college student (community college and university) and am also a college employee. Our COLLEGE makes the attendance rules for a class, not the instructor. The only instructors that can have a different policy than the college are the medical programs that cannot allow absences during clincals and the students cannot be late for clinicals.

Any academic class has a 15 minute policy--so 10 minutes would not have been an issue. And even then the students have so many days of being more than 15 minutes late (which would equal an absence) before they can be cut from the class. Additionally, if one of our instructors decided a student is "no longer welcome" in their classroom, the student has due process to challange it. Unless the instructor has a darn good reason for throwing the student out of class, chances are he/she is coming back. We have had students allowed back in class that were caught cheating because the instructor didn't do things the correct way. (student did receive a 0 for the paper, though)

So, in some instances, the instructor would not have totally been within his rights to put this student out of class.

OP, I am glad that your neice worked it out. She needs to remember that any time she has an issue to go first to the instructor and then to the person over the academic classes--dean of academics, director of academics or a smilar title. At most community colleges, someone will be willing to help her out, they won't just hang her out to dry.

Seriously? I cannot fathom a university or college that considers 15 minutes late okay. This is one third of the class time at many universities/colleges. This completely fails to teach students real world expectations or even respect. I would not even consider that appropriate as a standard course for Jr high much less college. Maybe once in a blue moon something like this happens, but ONLY once in a blue moon should it be okay. I sincerely hope my children attend universities or colleges which expect more from their students than that they show up for the last quarter or third of class. (BTW--I know this is not YOUR policy, it is teh schools, so I am not critcizing you just the policy).

Why should she change? Even her uncle still thinks she was "mainly" in the right. It seems that the only person* telling her that she acted incorrectly is the professor (who she just thinks is a jerk).

*Assuming that we are willing to believe that the neice isn't reading here.

sadly it does seem she basically got away with her tantrum with no repercussions at all. None the less, she has now seen that she could have had no issue and in fact been moved to a class which did not conflict at all had she just spoken to someone from the get go. Yet, even seeing that acting like an adult would have been easier she will continue as she was since no one really came down on her. I think ti is sad that an adult would be like that and NEED to lose something or be punished in some way in order to shape up.

 

[luvsJack]

Seriously? I cannot fathom a university or college that considers 15 minutes late okay. This is one third of the class time at many universities/colleges. This completely fails to teach students real world expectations or even respect. I would not even consider that appropriate as a standard course for Jr high much less college. Maybe once in a blue moon something like this happens, but ONLY once in a blue moon should it be okay. I sincerely hope my children attend universities or colleges which expect more from their students than that they show up for the last quarter or third of class. (BTW--I know this is not YOUR policy, it is teh schools, so I am not critcizing you just the policy).


sadly it does seem she basically got away with her tantrum with no repercussions at all. None the less, she has now seen that she could have had no issue and in fact been moved to a class which did not conflict at all had she just spoken to someone from the get go. Yet, even seeing that acting like an adult would have been easier she will continue as she was since no one really came down on her. I think ti is sad that an adult would be like that and NEED to lose something or be punished in some way in order to shape up.

Well, I can't really say that the policy has been a bad one. Our students move on from here and go to universities and do fine. Our program students are some of the most sought after for jobs in the state. Now, our programs only have this policy during their lecture classes. For clinicals the policies vary for different programs--some require 0 absences and only 1 or 2 tardies.

Let me also add that the instructor WOULD be able take away points from their grade, give them a 0 for something that was done/turned in during that 15 minutes, etc. They just can't throw the student out of class. And the door cannot be locked until 15 after class time. When I took a biology class, he would sometimes give a short quiz as soon as we entered the classroom. Anyone not in the room on time could not take the quiz, even though they could come to class.



In another response, you mention her throwing a "tantrum". Did I miss another post by the OP? The only one I saw said she refused to leave unless he got security. I wouldn't really call this a tantrum. Sometimes a person should speak up for themselves.

I think she should have gone to the instructor first about the time problem and if he wasn't willing to work with her, then to whomever is directly over him--but I wouldn't call what she did a "tantrum". We have had tantrum thowers--I WISH all they did was refuse to be thrown out of class.

 

[kamik86]

Well, I can't really say that the policy has been a bad one. Our students move on from here and go to universities and do fine. Our program students are some of the most sought after for jobs in the state. Now, our programs only have this policy during their lecture classes. For clinicals the policies vary for different programs--some require 0 absences and only 1 or 2 tardies.

Let me also add that the instructor WOULD be able take away points from their grade, give them a 0 for something that was done/turned in during that 15 minutes, etc. They just can't throw the student out of class. And the door cannot be locked until 15 after class time. When I took a biology class, he would sometimes give a short quiz as soon as we entered the classroom. Anyone not in the room on time could not take the quiz, even though they could come to class.



In another response, you mention her throwing a "tantrum". Did I miss another post by the OP? The only one I saw said she refused to leave unless he got security. I wouldn't really call this a tantrum. Sometimes a person should speak up for themselves.

I think she should have gone to the instructor first about the time problem and if he wasn't willing to work with her, then to whomever is directly over him--but I wouldn't call what she did a "tantrum". We have had tantrum thowers--I WISH all they did was refuse to be thrown out of class.

Now that you explained this more many of my classes were like this. They were small classes and the teacher took attendance (many students thought they stopped after the first week or two, but they didn't they just learned our names by then) 5 min after class started if you weren't there you were considered absent. Most of the classes didn't have a real attendance policy unless it was something that would be a pain for you to make up later (not necessarily a pain for you but if it was for others, like a physics or chem lab) however my school only gave letter grades A, B, C, etc. No +/-, so most of the teachers made it policy that they would bump you if you were in some tolerance of the next letter (say 2 points) but only if your attendance and participation was at a certain level.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Let me also add that the instructor WOULD be able take away points from their grade, give them a 0 for something that was done/turned in during that 15 minutes, etc. They just can't throw the student out of class. And the door cannot be locked until 15 after class time. When I took a biology class, he would sometimes give a short quiz as soon as we entered the classroom. Anyone not in the room on time could not take the quiz, even though they could come to class.

This is not the impression I got at all from your previous post. That makes it fairly reasonable. Still odd to me as I think it is fair to say show up on time or not at all and that is how much of the real world works, but I do not think it is totally unreasonable in light of this new information.

In another response, you mention her throwing a "tantrum". Did I miss another post by the OP? The only one I saw said she refused to leave unless he got security. I wouldn't really call this a tantrum. Sometimes a person should speak up for themselves.

I guess we define it differently. I think an adult declaring in a classroom that she will not leave, after being asked to do so, until security comes to take her out is a tantrum. Not a screaming and throwing things type tantrum but still one. Maybe another word would be appropriate. It is basically the saying "make me!" and digging in your heels like an 8 year old.

 

[luvsJack]

This is not the impression I got at all from your previous post. That makes it fairly reasonable. Still odd to me as I think it is fair to say show up on time or not at all and that is how much of the real world works, but I do not think it is totally unreasonable in light of this new information.

Sorry, should have been more clear. It was just the putting her out of his classroom that wouldn't have flown here.

I guess we define it differently. I think an adult declaring in a classroom that she will not leave, after being asked to do so, until security comes to take her out is a tantrum. Not a screaming and throwing things type tantrum but still one. Maybe another word would be appropriate. It is basically the saying "make me!" and digging in your heels like an 8 year old.

I see your point.

 

[Big Cuddly Bear]

Seriously? I cannot fathom a university or college that considers 15 minutes late okay. This is one third of the class time at many universities/colleges.

....

Not really... it was 15 minutes of a 2.5 hour class that met once a week.

 

[NHdisneylover]

....

Not really... it was 15 minutes of a 2.5 hour class that met once a week.

Even missing 1/10 of a class on a regular basis is quite a lot! I find that totally unacceptable. do you feel it should be okay to come in 48 minutes late to a regular 8 hour a day job since that is only 1/10 of the time (same as your 15 minuets late to a 2 1/2 hour class is)?

I do think it might have been workable anyway if she was a good student and had been responsible and spoken to the prof. ASAP about the issue. However, to act as if it were a non issue and rudely come in late for several weeks and then when told to leave due to this poor behaviour to dig in her heals and backtalk like that. Wow. I just see that as really out of line.

Besides the poster who said HER college had that policy (which I now think is not such a bad thing as she pointed out that quizzes, homework, etc missed does not get to be made up unless the prof wants to allow that) was talking about for ALL classes. I doubt it is a school with only long once a week classes.

 

[Big Cuddly Bear]

Even missing 1/10 of a class on a regular basis is quite a lot! I find that totally unacceptable. do you feel it should be okay to come in 48 minutes late to a regular 8 hour a day job since that is only 1/10 of the time (same as your 15 minuets late to a 2 1/2 hour class is)?

I do think it might have been workable anyway if she was a good student and had been responsible and spoken to the prof. ASAP about the issue. However, to act as if it were a non issue and rudely come in late for several weeks and then when told to leave due to this poor behaviour to dig in her heals and backtalk like that. Wow. I just see that as really out of line.

Besides the poster who said HER college had that policy (which I now think is not such a bad thing as she pointed out that quizzes, homework, etc missed does not get to be made up unless the prof wants to allow that) was talking about for ALL classes. I doubt it is a school with only long once a week classes.

No, but the difference is someone paid me to be on time for work. In college I paid to attend. Like I said, I attended college 6 years, and someone entering class late was no big deal, IMO. And I never heard any other student voice displeasure with anybody entering a class late - especially for adults attending at night ( which I also did for several classes ).

I do think a lot of professor types take themselves way too seriously. And, BTW, I made no mention of this, but my brother teaches at a 4 year university as a PT professor. I asked him what he would have done if a girl showed up late for class several times.... His response was, "Hey' it's her dime".

BTW, I had 2 ( I think it was 2 ) college professors who didn't require you to attend class at all. You just had to pass the tests. I remember Professor Dudley - yes that was his name - and he said "All I care about is that you read the book because all questions will be from the book. Nothing will be on the test from class unless it is also in the book.".... So, literally less than half the class actually attended classes.

 

[Big Cuddly Bear]

How quiet is quiet enough? Pretty subjective if you ask me. Clearly, whatever you thought was quiet enough, was not quiet enough. It got her removed from the class.

No, it did not get her removed from class. She asked to be changed to another class, but it never got to the point where she was removed from class.

 

[NHdisneylover]

No, but the difference is someone paid me to be on time for work. In college I paid to attend. Like I said, I attended college 6 years, and someone entering class late was no big deal, IMO. And I never heard any other student voice displeasure with anybody entering a class late - especially for adults attending at night ( which I also did for several classes ).

I do think a lot of professor types take themselves way too seriously. And, BTW, I made no mention of this, but my brother teaches at a 4 year university as a PT professor. I asked him what he would have done if a girl showed up late for class several times.... His response was, "Hey' it's her dime".

BTW, I had 2 ( I think it was 2 ) college professors who didn't require you to attend class at all. You just had to pass the tests. I remember Professor Dudley - yes that was his name - and he said "All I care about is that you read the book because all questions will be from the book. Nothing will be on the test from class unless it is also in the book.".... So, literally less than half the class actually attended classes.

That is a class/professor which I would likely have complained about to the head of the department. Funny thing, I went to college to LEARN and I expected to get a decent education for MY dime.

I took both daytime and night classes as well. Late comers were a distraction--when they were allowed in. Some more than others. This depends partly on the class size, partly on the room set up (is the door in front of the class or behind? How loud IS the door when it opens and closes? Is it a lecture hall with seating in aisle and the end seats may not be left, causing the latecomer to have to squeeze past people? etc), partly on how loud the person is (do they have to unzip a bag and pull their books out? Set a water bottle loudly on the desk? Flip pages around in a notebook?) and partly on what the class has been doing (just a lecture or is this a literature class already well into a discussion?).

I pay for my son's ballet classes. He cannot go in late. I pay for his and my daughter's private school too. This does not make it okay for them to regularly arrive late.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

....

Not really... it was 15 minutes of a 2.5 hour class that met once a week.

If the 15 minutes was not important, it would have been scheduled as a 2.25 hour class that met once a week.

No offense intended, but it seems you have many comments that play down the "importance" of "respect" for this class: She works, it is "only" community college, it is only "15 minutes". It is a very nonchalant attitude that puzzles me.

Also--while the school suggests a little leeway for the evening crowd (which bugs me as all students should be held to the SAME standard IMHO and not get special "privileges "because they work hard all day before they come to school)--he could not provide that leeway since she kept her mouth closed.

It is also interesting that a morning 2.5 hour class fits her work schedule better than a 7pm class. Interesting how her job could make that work, but not to leave 15 minutes early so she would be ON TIME to her evening class.


Lastly--"paying" for something doesn't give you the right to go against the instructor's wishes and be tardy if they don't want tardy students.

I pay for my airline tickets. That plane leaves whether I am on it or not. They can hold it as a courtesy if they wish if another flight is late. But if my husband's meeting runs late, the plane does not wait. But they should, since he paid for it per your reasoning.

 

[daughter_of_amid_chaos]

I find it hard to believe that this late in the semester (my students take finals next week) that a student would be able to switch to another class, unless it was taught by the same exact professor with the same exact syllabus. Otherwise, how is she expected to catch up on a whole semester worth of work?

 

[phorsenuf]

I find it hard to believe that this late in the semester (my students take finals next week) that a student would be able to switch to another class, unless it was taught by the same exact professor with the same exact syllabus. Otherwise, how is she expected to catch up on a whole semester worth of work?

Stop being logical.