Do you believe that we (humans) are mostly good?

[iwrbnd]

I think humans are born selfish at birth. All a baby knows is feed me, change me, let me sleep. As a christian person the bible tells me we are born sinful creatures. I think how we deal with this fact determines if we are "good" or "bad"!

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I believe humans are inherently selfish, but sometimes being selfish (meaning protecting one's self) requires integration into a group. As such, we have developed mechanisms for coping with this conundrum. Some people would call them "morals", some would reference tit-for-tat strategy, and some people would look to Hamilton's rule (rB>C, or the cost of doing an action that benefits another will be performed only when such cost is less than the benefit as reduced by the coefficient of relatedness of the benefitted individual to the actor). And if that didn't confuse you, 'Hi, my name is ZephyrHawk and I'm happy to discuss behavioral ecology with you any time.'

The point is that I believe being "nice" is an evolutionary strategy. Being "mean", however, is also an evolutionary strategy. Both work better at achieving different goals, and sometimes may be used to achieve the same goals. If you share your food with a female she's likely to stick close to you, but just attacking her when she's in estrus will achieve the same end result. However, evolution is not a perfect process, especially in the short term, and it produces individuals that cannot optimize such strategies. This is why we get serial killers. It's also why we get "Mother Teresas"...sure they're great, but they don't breed and are ultimately lost to history.

Morals are something we've created to explain the "urges" we have to do certain things which have, to a certain extent, been ingrained into our bodies and minds since our ancestors first started grouping together for safety. Or, as Hamlet might say, "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

 

[Explodo]

So Zepher...could you explain to us how the concept of "Duty" works into the formula of good/bad?

And how it is a base unit of morality

 

[happygirl]

i think humans are born selfish at birth. All a baby knows is feed me, change me, let me sleep. As a christian person the bible tells me we are born sinful creatures. I think how we deal with this fact determines if we are "good" or "bad"!

ita

 

[iwrbnd]

I believe left unchecked we all lean towards "bad"...greed, selfishness, etc. But, I still believe we know what is right deep down. But, I guess to answer the thread question I don't believe we are mostly good but I think most people do their best to be good.

 

[Planogirl]

Interesting discussion.

I've been mulling the reasons why helping others makes a good person feel good. There's something very pleasing about donating time or money or whatever to a cause or to someone and it seems to go beyond it being right only because society says so.

Are people good? I think of a person's morality being somewhere in the gray spectrum with true bad and good being rare. I think that most people have good in them but they themselves choose how to use that good. Or bad as the case may be.

 

[Rora]

Goodness always prevails. There are more good people than bad in this world, I have always believed that especially when I was a skeptic. But ALL people have a dark side. ALL. No one is excluded. That is one of the reason we are told not to judge others. That is because our dark sides can pop up at any time under any circumstance.

I agree.

I can only hope that humans are innately good.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

So Zepher...could you explain to us how the concept of "Duty" works into the formula of good/bad?

And how it is a base unit of morality

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "duty". There's a lot of things we can describe as being "duties". We believe a mother has a duty to care for her children, but that's because we expect she will be willing to devote a large amount of cost to the extreme benefit of offspring that are very closely related to her.

We believe that police officers and firemen have a duty to risk their own lives in favor of those they're protecting. However, these costs do have benefits. Number one, they do get paid. Being paid allows them to live a life, have shelter and raise offspring. Despite the fact that we would generally consider the terrible threat of dying on the job to be greater than any monetary benefit, evolution has not equipped us well for predicting the future, and no one ever really believes they're going to die. Another thing to consider is that these are traditionally considered male roles, and part of that originates from the fact that males derive a greater chance of genetic benefit from "risk taking" behavior (women love a man in uniform, and it's not just the snazzy dress). Plus, evolution is not really interested in protecting us, per se, it only wants us to live to an age where we can successfully reproduce. After that, its mostly (though not entirely) done with us. A man (or a woman) who can attract a mate based upon certain prowess and protective behavior would benefit genetically, even if that behavior eventually lead to his or her early demise.

I guess I can't really answer your question, because I operate on the assumption that no one has a "duty" to do anything. There are just some things that, if you don't do them, are likely to have negative consequences, and some things that if you do them, will positively benefit your genetic contribution to future generations. As to how it is "a base unit of morality", I really have no idea what you're asking, other than perhaps to say that both are human inventions. Does a chimp have a duty to the others in its social group, or is it just generally better off if it sticks with them and helps them to find food and protect the borders of their territory?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think that when you watch a movie, you get the slant of the people who made that movie with the understanding that they want to entertain and make money. So while there may be some elements of truth to them, they're driven by fiction more than anything else.

OTOH, if you want to see the good in people, pick up the paper, watch the evening news, experience cancer or a catastrophe. This is where you'll see the good. Sure, there's a lot of bad there, too, but remember that sensational headlines sell papers and increase ratings, so you're probably more likely to be shown a sensational bad story than a ho hum good one.

I think finding good is a state of mind. It's kind of like seeing the glass half full. I see random acts of kindness every day and I try to return them as well. When someone is good or kind to me it literally makes my day. It may be as simple as a caring smile or holding open a door. Sometimes we're so busy running around with our jaws clenched that we don't take the time ourselves to either see the good or spread it to others when we can. (I'm guilty of that at times as well.) Consciously opening and softening our hearts can make us see things differently - we've just got to try.

Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that's right is to get by, and the only thing that's wrong is to get caught. ~J.C. Watts

 

[monkeybug]

Regardless of how we start out in this world, with or with out a moral compass, I believe that most adults and young children in this world are "good" or well meaning.
There are amazing acts of kindness, charity, love, and self sacrifice every minute on this planet!
I think of that man that threw himself on top of a man who had fallen onto subway tracks when a train was coming and saved his life. Certainly that act wasn't about the rescuers own survival instinct. I'd say weather he was born with it or not, that man has one truly amazing moral compass!

 

[Explodo]

Zepher

Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect.


A person chooses to be dutiful...and choice and fuffiling that duty is the basis for goodness. Duty is selfless.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

Unfortunately, no.

In the wake of Katrina lots of people were out for themselves - looting, etc.

Heck, go to the transportation board - there are people who will not move to make sure a family with little ones can sit together

Go to the theme park board - people want to break the rules, lie and say their child is 2 to avoid paying for a ticket.

A lot of people seem to be out for themselves without ANY thought to others. For instance - lets fly with the kid with chicken pox because gosh I sure would hate to postpone my trip to Disney, lets bomb the room with germ killers no matter that the guest after you may have a severe allergy, and on and on.

Just look at the threads today - we have parents hitting their kids, a woman complaining that her mother did not leave her an inheritance.

It is easy to be bad.

 

[Explodo]

So I'm taking you don;t think spanking is a moraly correct thing to do?

Did you know that when you were newborn?

Morality seems to be maleable thiing based on locality and parental teaching. True?

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

So I'm taking you don;t think spanking is a moraly correct thing to do?

Did you know that when you were newborn?

Morality seems to be maleable thiing based on locality and parental teaching. True?

Treat others as you would like to be treated.

 

[Explodo]

The Golden Rule...very nice.

Do you believe we are born with that concept intact, or is it taught?

 

[monkeybug]

Unfortunately, no.

In the wake of Katrina lots of people were out for themselves - looting, etc.

Heck, go to the transportation board - there are people who will not move to make sure a family with little ones can sit together

Go to the theme park board - people want to break the rules, lie and say their child is 2 to avoid paying for a ticket.

A lot of people seem to be out for themselves without ANY thought to others. For instance - lets fly with the kid with chicken pox because gosh I sure would hate to postpone my trip to Disney, lets bomb the room with germ killers no matter that the guest after you may have a severe allergy, and on and on.

Just look at the threads today - we have parents hitting their kids, a woman complaining that her mother did not leave her an inheritance.

It is easy to be bad.

I think like all things in life, you find in other what you are looking for!
Your looking for bad? You'll find it.
Your looking for good? Then that's what you'll find.
There is plenty of both in this World, and there always has been!

 

[monkeybug]

I believe humans are inherently selfish, but sometimes being selfish (meaning protecting one's self) requires integration into a group. As such, we have developed mechanisms for coping with this conundrum. Some people would call them "morals", some would reference tit-for-tat strategy, and some people would look to Hamilton's rule (rB>C, or the cost of doing an action that benefits another will be performed only when such cost is less than the benefit as reduced by the coefficient of relatedness of the benefitted individual to the actor). And if that didn't confuse you, 'Hi, my name is ZephyrHawk and I'm happy to discuss behavioral ecology with you any time.'

Your explanation reminded me of Joseph Campbell

"We're not on our journey to save the world but to save ourselves. But in doing that you save the world. The influence of a vital person vitalizes."
— Joseph Campbell
Or at least I think it does...though I have to admit you lost me on that last part...I think.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

I believe humans are inherently selfish, but sometimes being selfish (meaning protecting one's self) requires integration into a group. As such, we have developed mechanisms for coping with this conundrum. Some people would call them "morals", some would reference tit-for-tat strategy, and some people would look to Hamilton's rule (rB>C, or the cost of doing an action that benefits another will be performed only when such cost is less than the benefit as reduced by the coefficient of relatedness of the benefitted individual to the actor). And if that didn't confuse you, 'Hi, my name is ZephyrHawk and I'm happy to discuss behavioral ecology with you any time.'

The point is that I believe being "nice" is an evolutionary strategy. Being "mean", however, is also an evolutionary strategy. Both work better at achieving different goals, and sometimes may be used to achieve the same goals. If you share your food with a female she's likely to stick close to you, but just attacking her when she's in estrus will achieve the same end result. However, evolution is not a perfect process, especially in the short term, and it produces individuals that cannot optimize such strategies. This is why we get serial killers. It's also why we get "Mother Teresas"...sure they're great, but they don't breed and are ultimately lost to history.

Morals are something we've created to explain the "urges" we have to do certain things which have, to a certain extent, been ingrained into our bodies and minds since our ancestors first started grouping together for safety. Or, as Hamlet might say, "There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."

Agree.

Julia Sweeney summed it up nicely in her one woman show "Letting Go of God" calling things "psychological truths". We say "that is psychologically true."

That is probably our favorite line in my house now.

 

[merryweather20]

Those of you that think that people are mostly bad, I can only assure you that your wrong and your missing out.

I think like all things in life, you find in other what you are looking for!
Your looking for bad? You'll find it.

Your looking for good? Then that's what you'll find.
There is plenty of both in this World, and there always has been!

Thats like the line from Pollyanna

 

[gisgt]

Humans are animals...who have to be taught morals. If morals are not taught or learned, the human animal is just a funtioning unit that survives like every other animal. It's not a good or bad thing in that spectrum of thinking, bad or good doesn't make sense to a animal trying to survive.

Bottom line, we are not born with a moral compass (Good or Bad)

I agree, man is inherently amoral as morals are created by the society/religion/culture one is part of. Without these, man is just an animal like all others: with only an evolutionary desire for survival and reproduction.