Disneyland’s DAS is denying the severely disabled now.

[joseph821]

Media storm begins:

 

[voxparse]

Its all just so disingenuous though. This quote from the article boils my blood

"[...]people are asking for disabled people to stop being excluded from the California and Florida parks with the new policy."

No one is being excluded from the parks. Advocating is a good thing, advocating by exaggerating the harms and bending or outright breaking the truth not only doesn't help, it hurts the cause.

Also the article explains how the person who got denied waited for an hour in line to do their DAS interview in person...

 

[JerrodDragon89]

Media on Disney is so bad right now

Did anyone see the articles about how Tinker Bell is not meeting guests at WDW because of how she was dressed or some BS. When at Disneyland tinkerbell and hook still meet, its just some websites lie or stretch the truth to get views


I'm for people get DAS that need it but many of these people that will writer articles are not doing good faith arguments at times

 

[Genie+]

Media storm begins:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifesty...ability-access-parkgoers-upset-calling-change

Whether you are a lawyer doesn’t seem as important as having enough familiarity with the differences in these major theme park’s operations and how they apply to ADA to make pages of judgements here.

The glaring gape in Universal and 6 Flags is requiring disability confirmation to make accommodation. The ADA clearly set out that businesses may ask about the accommodation needed, but cannot require proof to access those accommodations. The exception being if it has a monetary cost to other customers, then requiring proof may be allowed. 6 Flags was first, and it was commonly reasoned that since they also charged for avoiding standby, they could require proof and the way they did that was through a 3rd party. Guess what? The got sued for it anyway… still ongoing. Universal went to that system after and is surely watching closely. I’m curious to how that system is less risky? People are saying it is illegal to have disabled guests prepare days before their trip and cannot visit spontaneously like others.

Disney avoided that can of worms by not requiring proof regardless whether they legally can or not. If a guess can state what they need help with, Disney will provide the accommodation they set up for that type of circumstance. That may be DAS or that may be a different accommodation. The accommodations are given to the needs asked, not proved. You can point at many things… all of which Disney is still reasonably adjusting. Wait times were very long when digital DAS started less than 3 years ago. Nobody sued. Why? Probably because it was a learning curve for both the business and its customers. As time went went on things got better. Right now Disney is again bombarded between system changes, learning curve for CM and guests alike, and an unusually high number of requests (many cases of people testing the water asap instead of waiting to closer to their trips as intended, and that part will quiet down). Legally why wouldn’t those circumstances be taken into consideration, especially if after wrinkles smooth it is a functioning system?

I am no expert. Not even 5% so take what I’m saying with nothing more than contributing to a conversation. I’m also not claiming to somehow have a better handle on this situation than others and bombarding a thread with my viewpoints.

 

[joseph821]

Whether you are a lawyer doesn’t seem as important as having enough familiarity with the differences in these major theme park’s operations and how they apply to ADA to make pages of judgements here.

The glaring gape in Universal and 6 Flags is requiring disability confirmation to make accommodation. The ADA clearly set out that businesses may ask about the accommodation needed, but cannot require proof to access those accommodations. The exception being if it has a monetary cost to other customers, then requiring proof may be allowed. 6 Flags was first, and it was commonly reasoned that since they also charged for avoiding standby, they could require proof and the way they did that was through a 3rd party. Guess what? The got sued for it anyway… still ongoing. Universal went to that system after and is surely watching closely. I’m curious to how that system is less risky? People are saying it is illegal to have disabled guests prepare days before their trip and cannot visit spontaneously like others.

Disney avoided that can of worms by not requiring proof regardless whether they legally can or not. If a guess can state what they need help with, Disney will provide the accommodation they set up for that type of circumstance. That may be DAS or that may be a different accommodation. The accommodations are given to the needs asked, not proved. You can point at many things… all of which Disney is still reasonably adjusting. Wait times were very long when digital DAS started less than 3 years ago. Nobody sued. Why? Probably because it was a learning curve for both the business and its customers. As time went went on things got better. Right now Disney is again bombarded between system changes, learning curve for CM and guests alike, and an unusually high number of requests (many cases of people testing the water asap instead of waiting to closer to their trips as intended, and that part will quiet down). Legally why wouldn’t those circumstances be taken into consideration, especially if after wrinkles smooth it is a functioning system?

I am no expert. Not even 5% so take what I’m saying with nothing more than contributing to a conversation. I’m also not claiming to somehow have a better handle on this situation than others and bombarding a thread with my viewpoints.

I am not expert. I posted the links to the articles as an FYI. I was not bombarding the board either. Yes I am attorney but no expert at ADA or this topic. If you read all my posts, all I want is for people with their disabilities to have access. I apologize if I offended you or anyone. I am staying away from this thread and these boards. Best of luck to all on their trips and access to Disneyland. I have removed most of my posts in this thread. Take care.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Its all just so disingenuous though. This quote from the article boils my blood

"[...]people are asking for disabled people to stop being excluded from the California and Florida parks with the new policy."

No one is being excluded from the parks. Advocating is a good thing, advocating by exaggerating the harms and bending or outright breaking the truth not only doesn't help, it hurts the cause.

Also the article explains how the person who got denied waited for an hour in line to do their DAS interview in person...

Her whole deal was that she goes to the parks so often that "IF" she were to "have to" purchase Genie+ every time, it would cost her over $400 per month. So, the argument is that the "new" DAS system is "preventing" her from visiting the parks three to four times per week (14 X $30=$420). Otherwise, her argument is that she's not getting full use of her Magic Key (even though it sounds like she is suggesting she uses it 170+ times per year so that's a tough row to hoe).

 

[voxparse]

Her whole deal was that she goes to the parks so often that "IF" she were to "have to" purchase Genie+ every time, it would cost her over $400 per month. So, the argument is that the "new" DAS system is "preventing" her from visiting the parks three to four times per week (14 X $30=$420). Otherwise, her argument is that she's not getting full use of her Magic Key (even though it sounds like she is suggesting she uses it 170+ times per year so that's a tough row to hoe).

Yeah its not an intellectually honest argument that she (or others on her behalf) is making. The fact that she no longer qualifies for DAS does not necessitate purchase of Genie+ (or LLMP). She might feel that to get an equivalent experience to DAS she needs to purchase Genie+, but that isn't a fair comparison. DAS was so significantly better than the experience of an average park goer that it created this expectations gap (this is also why it was so ripe for abuse). Although she may not get the accommodation she wants, it doesn't mean she isn't being accommodated.

And yes, she is arguing from a really tenuous position. Going to a theme park 170+ times a year and clearly being able to wait an hour for your DAS interview AT THE THEME PARK, sort of kills the whole argument. Even if there is more nuance in there (and I suspect there is), you have already lost the optics battle and most people won't want to hear the rest of it.

 

[irlandaise]

And yes, she is arguing from a really tenuous position. Going to a theme park 170+ times a year and clearly being able to wait an hour for your DAS interview AT THE THEME PARK, sort of kills the whole argument. Even if there is more nuance in there (and I suspect there is), you have already lost the optics battle and most people won't want to hear the rest of it.

Out of curiosity, how does DAS work with MK holders? They don't have to get approved at each visit, do they? Are passes issued for a certain length of time?

I guess the same question would apply to casual visitors. If someone is coming for four days at DLR, can they get a four-day DAS pass if they qualify?

 

[voxparse]

Out of curiosity, how does DAS work with MK holders? They don't have to get approved at each visit, do they? Are passes issued for a certain length of time?

I guess the same question would apply to casual visitors. If someone is coming for four days at DLR, can they get a four-day DAS pass if they qualify?

If you have a MK (AP at WDW) the DAS is good for 120 days. Otherwise your DAS approval is tied to your dated tickets.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Full disclosure:

I am a fully-able heterosexual upper middle class white male who, aside from having a son who was on a 504 program in grade school (which he no longer needed in high school), has no family members with any known disabilities. I am also a former TWDC employee who has had several other family members in long-term employment with Disney.

With all of that out in the open, I tend to read most articles that are critical of Disney or Disney CM's (hopefully with an open mind, even in light of the aforementioned disclosures) and what struck me most about her original posting was how the DAS denial seemed to take a back seat (almost) immediately, with the focus really being on the economic "impact" of having to buy Genie+ a dozen times a month and her contention that it affected her ability to use her Magic key to the extent she felt she is entitled to.

 

[lanejudy]

Do you mean their high-intensity roller coasters?

Sorry, I just realized I never responded... Universal attractions are much more "thrill ride" type -- be that high intensity roller coasters or other rides. At least in Orlando, I've never really looked at Hollywood. Disney has more family-friendly attractions, relatively few with height requirements, very few considered "thrill rides" and there's a lot more in which folks with medical or other needs can participate. I know on the disABILITIES Forum there are many posters who don't go to Universal Orlando because there is so little they can do.

I suppose that's all subjective. But it's a pretty common opinion.

 

[SueM in MN]

Media on Disney is so bad right now

Did anyone see the articles about how Tinker Bell is not meeting guests at WDW because of how she was dressed or some BS. When at Disneyland tinkerbell and hook still meet, its just some websites lie or stretch the truth to get views


I'm for people get DAS that need it but many of these people that will writer articles are not doing good faith arguments at times

The bolded was what it turned out to be - exaggeration and stretching. The 'reasons' that were in the articles supposedly had to do with how Tinkerbell is portrayed in the Peter Pan movie. The Tinkerbell character in the parks is from the Tinkerbell movies.
No one knows why Disney World didn't bring back Tinkerbell meet and greet after COVID

 

[SueM in MN]

Agreed. But I think Disney should hire a private business like UNiversal to do this screening. And Disney would be out of the decision process making entirely. And I would not be surprised if the State of California does not get involved. CA can regulate DL via change in disability law and regulations and DL would be forced to comply.

I do think litigation will occur and force Disney to change its program and Disney needs to be very careful and prudent especially in California where the state would not hestitate to regulate theme parks. Florida is a different situation.

From what I am seeing and hearing that is not the universal experience.
As for Universal, they yes determine the accomodation but they do not determine the disability and or eligibility. Disney determines eligibility and the accomodation.
As an attorney, this situation is not exactly perfect. And Disney is subjecting itself to liability. Disneyland's website does emphasize development disabilities as the trigger point.

https://accessibilitycard.org/

Who is Eligible to Register?​

Any Individual asking for accommodations can register for the IBCCES Accessibility Card. Examples of needs or accommodations requests include but are not limited to:​

Examples of Needs or Accommodations Requests

• Cannot stand in line for a long period of time
• Requires ride harness or other supports
• Sensory sensitivities
• Wheelchair access
• Physical or mobility restrictions
• Require visual assistance or guidance
• Special dietary needs

Providing proof of disability doesn't really get rid of fakers like people think it will.
In the first place, ADA provides for accommodation based on needs related to disability, not diagnosis.

IBCCES, the company used by Universal is NOT a third party medical group.

• It's a marketing group that started out providing certification for ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis for Autism) providers and branched out to Autism certification for employees of multiple types of public facilities and businesses.
• Got into Autism Certification of facilities/theme parks, etc.
• that led to registration of people with autism to receive some of the services at the facilities they certified,
• which led into their current registration program for people with multiple disabilities

Just requiring documentation doesn't mean less abuse.
Honest people will give honest proof and ask for the amount of access they need.
Dishonest people will come up with ways to fake documentation or will lie or exaggerate their access needs.
There are 'rent-a-doctors' who will pretty write whatever someone wants for a price and there are people who will make their own fake documents.

The system used by Universal for documentation doesn't appear to be very robust. Many of the things they accept as proof of disability don't say anything about needs in a theme park queue , including:

• an IEP page that lists the diagnosis
• a copy of handicapped parking permit
• a copy of National Park Access Pass
• doctor letter, but it doesn't have to say anything other than, "My patient, John Doe, is disabled". People have reported getting approved with only that.
• People have also reported getting accepted by IBCCES with:
  • an authorization that allows them to keep food with them at work
  • an authorization that allowed them to have extra time for tests in college

Requested accommodations are checked off by the person applying, not verified by the document that shows disability.

The document verification process also does not appear very robust.
I've read a lot of reports from people who got temporary approval within an hour or less of submission and final approval soon after.

There is at least one lawsuit related to 6 Flags and being required to register and get a card. I've also read acounts from people who felt they were discriminated against by being told they would have to register and get an access card:

• a blind person in order to use her white cane at Universal
• Several people in order to use a Seeing Eye dog or Service Dog at Universal
• a deaf man told he'd need to register to request ASL (American Sign Language) interpretation
• EDITED TO ADD: forgot one - at least 1 person was told they could not use their wheelchair in lines/attractions unless they registered and obtained a card
• these specific disability related needs, plus the ones listed above from the IBCCES website are things disabled people may need and DON'T need to provide proof of their disability to use

There are a lot of people who say anyone who is 'really disabled' would provide documentation, so those who don't must be faking. Many of us COULD provide documentation, but don't want to share with a marketing company with no medical background.

 

[JerrodDragon89]

The bolded was what it turned out to be - exaggeration and stretching. The 'reasons' that were in the articles supposedly had to do with how Tinkerbell is portrayed in the Peter Pan movie. The Tinkerbell character in the parks is from the Tinkerbell movies.
No one knows why Disney World didn't bring back Tinkerbell meet and greet after COVID

Most likely just budget cuts and guests not having the demand for the characters

But I also am no running a website and posting this as fact and trying to make Disney look "woke" to get clicks

 

[Snap Crackle Pop]

Yeah its not an intellectually honest argument that she (or others on her behalf) is making. The fact that she no longer qualifies for DAS does not necessitate purchase of Genie+ (or LLMP). She might feel that to get an equivalent experience to DAS she needs to purchase Genie+, but that isn't a fair comparison. DAS was so significantly better than the experience of an average park goer that it created this expectations gap (this is also why it was so ripe for abuse). Although she may not get the accommodation she wants, it doesn't mean she isn't being accommodated.

And yes, she is arguing from a really tenuous position. Going to a theme park 170+ times a year and clearly being able to wait an hour for your DAS interview AT THE THEME PARK, sort of kills the whole argument. Even if there is more nuance in there (and I suspect there is), you have already lost the optics battle and most people won't want to hear the rest of it.

Regarding your last paragraph what are people supposed to do if they need the DAS? The wait online is even longer, I think it's ridiculous that because someone waited an hour to get an accommodation that it automatically means they should be ok with waiting in a line for an hour when one is to get a service that one most likely needs. I don't think an argument is killed, I think it magnifies the fact that the ability to be seen is taking too long for most people but they are stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to trying to get the DAS and waiting.

I personally think there should be a annual Genie+ purchase available to MK since they tend to go pretty often, but that is neither here nor there at the moment.

 

[SueM in MN]

Most likely just budget cuts and guests not having the demand for the characters

But I also am no running a website and posting this as fact and trying to make Disney look "woke" to get clicks

I agree - Disney World would very likely have lots of information about the number of guests per hour/day for Tinkerbell.

 

[nalababybear]

Providing proof of disability doesn't really get rid of fakers like people think it will.
In the first place, ADA provides for accommodation based on needs related to disability, not diagnosis.

IBCCES, the company used by Universal is NOT a third party medical group.

• It's a marketing group that started out providing certification for ABA (Applied Behavioral Analysis for Autism) providers and branched out to Autism certification for employees of multiple types of public facilities and businesses.
• Got into Autism Certification of facilities/theme parks, etc.
• that led to registration of people with autism to receive some of the services at the facilities they certified,
• which led into their current registration program for people with multiple disabilities

Just requiring documentation doesn't mean less abuse.
Honest people will give honest proof and ask for the amount of access they need.
Dishonest people will come up with ways to fake documentation or will lie or exaggerate their access needs.
There are 'rent-a-doctors' who will pretty write whatever someone wants for a price and there are people who will make their own fake documents.

The system used by Universal for documentation doesn't appear to be very robust. Many of the things they accept as proof of disability don't say anything about needs in a theme park queue , including:

• an IEP page that lists the diagnosis
• a copy of handicapped parking permit
• a copy of National Park Access Pass
• doctor letter, but it doesn't have to say anything other than, "My patient, John Doe, is disabled". People have reported getting approved with only that.
• People have also reported getting accepted by IBCCES with:
  • an authorization that allows them to keep food with them at work
  • an authorization that allowed them to have extra time for tests in college

Requested accommodations are checked off by the person applying, not verified by the document that shows disability.

The document verification process also does not appear very robust.
I've read a lot of reports from people who got temporary approval within an hour or less of submission and final approval soon after.

There is at least one lawsuit related to 6 Flags and being required to register and get a card. I've also read acounts from people who felt they were discriminated against by being told they would have to register and get an access card:

• a blind person in order to use her white cane at Universal
• Several people in order to use a Seeing Eye dog or Service Dog at Universal
• a deaf man told he'd need to register to request ASL (American Sign Language) interpretation
• these specific disability related needs, plus the ones listed above from the IBCCES website are things disabled people may need and DON'T need to provide proof of their disability to use

There are a lot of people who say anyone who is 'really disabled' would provide documentation, so those who don't must be faking. Many of us COULD provide documentation, but don't want to share with a marketing company with no medical background.

Liars will lie and cheat.

Making the front door harder to get through for those with a hard time already simply denies people that need it in the first place.

There are other mechanisms to lower liars and cheats.

 

[ShaneDJ]

There are other mechanisms to lower liars and cheats.

What are they??

 

[Tinkaboo]

Out of curiosity, how does DAS work with MK holders? They don't have to get approved at each visit, do they? Are passes issued for a certain length of time?

I guess the same question would apply to casual visitors. If someone is coming for four days at DLR, can they get a four-day DAS pass if they qualify?

DAS @ DL is only good for 60 days…sure wish it was 120 then I’d be golden. Since I only go about once a quarter, I always just miss the cutoff.

 

[lanejudy]

DAS @ DL is only good for 60 days

Have you registered since June 18th? Assuming you have an MK the DAS should be good for 120 days next time you re-register.