Disney Springs Brightline High-Speed Rail Station Cancelled

[OppR2nist]

I'll echo what I've heard other places. There's really no feasible this would have worked. A family with luggage would get on a train at MCO. That train would take them to Disney Springs. Then they have to wait around with their luggage until a resort bus arrives. Those resort buses are not really designed to carry families plus their luggage, especially with guest that are riding to and from Disney Springs on board. It was a nightmare in the making.

 

[OKW Lover]

I'll echo what I've heard other places. There's really no feasible this would have worked. A family with luggage would get on a train at MCO. That train would take them to Disney Springs. Then they have to wait around with their luggage until a resort bus arrives. Those resort buses are not really designed to carry families plus their luggage, especially with guest that are riding to and from Disney Springs on board. It was a nightmare in the making.

Agree it was a nightmare in the making. But I don't think they ever envisioned luggage going on the train.

 

[OppR2nist]

Agree it was a nightmare in the making. But I don't think they ever envisioned luggage going on the train.

Well, then that does leave us with the mystery of where all those bags will run off to.

 

[NotUrsula]

The thing is, there is still apparently the option of putting a station *close* to WDW property; presumably somewhere near Osceola and 417. It makes sense to add a station in that area, the potential demand from passengers (not all tourists) who will want to get off near WDW is too great not to accomodate in some way.

WDW could easily operate a more shuttle-like version of ME from a train station there; all it would take is outfitting some of the buses with luggage racks. (For a ride that short, using coach-type buses is overkill.) Or they could set up a luggage delivery service from there, avoiding the need to have to pay airport concession fees.

I think that once the train is built, Disney will at very least agree to a 3rd party option for travelers to use it to get at least part of the way to the property.

 

[OKW Lover]

The thing is, there is still apparently the option of putting a station *close* to WDW property; presumably somewhere near Osceola and 417. It makes sense to add a station in that area, the potential demand from passengers (not all tourists) who will want to get off near WDW is too great not to accomodate in some way.

I'm just not seeing this. Why make this a multi-stop trip with associated wait times between each leg when you could just get on a bus at the airport and get off at your resort?

 

[Dmbpjfan]

I don’t understand why ppl would necessarily choose this over driving or flying within Florida. The travel time is worse or the same as driving from Miami. The speculative cost is more than flying from within Florida to Mco and back. I understand the use for small travel time like west palm beach to Miami but Miami to Orlando, doesn’t make much sense to me financially or time wise

 

[New Mouse]

I don’t understand why ppl would necessarily choose this over driving or flying within Florida. The travel time is worse or the same as driving from Miami. The speculative cost is more than flying from within Florida to Mco and back. I understand the use for small travel time like west palm beach to Miami but Miami to Orlando, doesn’t make much sense to me financially or time wise

This is the failure with all massive rail projects in the country. It's typically not efficient and the cost is often worse than a plane.

 

[Mikey15]

I'm just not seeing this. Why make this a multi-stop trip with associated wait times between each leg when you could just get on a bus at the airport and get off at your resort?

I think some people are narrowly focused on whether this works as an MCO->WDW solution but that’s not the whole business case here. We’re also talking traffic to DS / resort areas from convention center or local sunrail, plus the entire reason the line is heading west of Orlando to begin with:



I’m far from in the know but I’d picture a station either in I-4 median or beside Grapefruit Garage or Team Disney, with pedestrian bridges DS-style to DS on one side and maybe Vistana on the other.

 

[NotUrsula]

I'm just not seeing this. Why make this a multi-stop trip with associated wait times between each leg when you could just get on a bus at the airport and get off at your resort?

Because not all rail passengers will be coming from MCO. There are plenty of one-stop services that will take you to/from WDW hotels to MCO, but not many that will take you there from West Palm Beach, or from downtown Tampa. (Actually, make that none from downtown Tampa. Before he got a car, my DS who was attending college in St. Pete used to have to take an Uber to downtown Tampa, then an Amtrak train to downtown Kissimmee, then another Uber to WDW if he came to join us on visits. It tended to cost about $140 each way. Most of the time he paid a friend to drive him to Tampa, and then we picked him up in Kissimmee in our rental car, which shaved the cost down to about $70 r/t.)

Also, many if not most adult foreign visitors will probably prefer to take a train rather than an airport car service, because they are used to taking trains to/from airports, and it would be much cheaper for small parties.

There are (VERY expensive) car services that will take you to WDW from TPA, but no regular service from the Tampa area or Gulf beach communities, and I-4 from Tampa can be very hit or miss in terms of transit time thanks to the traffic. It might take 90 minutes, or it might take 4 hours if there is a wreck on I-4. The train should be much more reliable on time, even limited to higher-speed rather than high-speed.

Timewise from Miami, a flight to WDW is typically going to take 70 minutes gate-to-gate, plus around 90 minutes at either end, for a total of about 4 hours, at which point you still have to get to WDW from MCO. Brightline is expected to shave an hour off that, and deliver you much closer to the tourist areas, for about $100/pp. For people who for whatever reason don't wish to drive, that's a decent deal, especially if they are destination-chaining and only want to take the train one-way. Typical cost for a flight from MIA to MCO is at least $150 if you have a bag. (Most Miami locals will probably drive their own vehicles, but tourists, especially foreign tourists from the very lucrative South American markets, won't have that option.)

FWIW, I always tend to take trains in from airports when trains are available, especially when traveling alone. In cities I typically walk from the train to my hotel if it's daylight and only a couple of miles. I feel more comfortable in buses or trains than cabs, and it's usually much faster and cheaper than the road options. BWI to Washington comes to mind: there is a shuttle that takes you from the terminal to the train station, and then from there most people take the train to DC. In Chicago the airport trains take you to the Loop, and then you're on your own the rest of the way.

 

[gatour]

I don’t understand why ppl would necessarily choose this over driving or flying within Florida. The travel time is worse or the same as driving from Miami. The speculative cost is more than flying from within Florida to Mco and back. I understand the use for small travel time like west palm beach to Miami but Miami to Orlando, doesn’t make much sense to me financially or

You must have never been stuck on I-95 or the turnpike or I-4 between Tampa and Orlando because of a wreck that closed all lanes. Now add in the thunderstorms that cause traffic to go down to 35 mph.

Let's see, I can be sitting in train reading, watching videos. Or be be stuck in a car for an additional hour inching along. I know what I would choose.

 

[wkrainey]

Probably a good thing all said and done. The location at Disney Springs was right behind Circ if I remember right, and by placing it there it limits Disney's ability to expand Disney Springs further in that direction. Long game is probably expanding shopping to encompass a full-day for the trip and anyone just stopping by. That was the plans 20yrs ago, not sure why they would've scrapped them for a train stop.

 

[OKW Lover]

The location at Disney Springs was right behind Circ if I remember right, and by placing it there it limits Disney's ability to expand Disney Springs further in that direction.

I don't recall that the proposed DS location was every actually defined. Where did you see this?

 

[HopperFan]

I don't recall that the proposed DS location was every actually defined. Where did you see this?

I don't think it was ever defined or committed to. There were predictions based on some fluid potential routes. (attached). I think looking at the predictions the Disney station as all expected was likely doomed from the start. It would mean the southern path which would bulldoze through residential areas who are not interested in the rail. It always made sense to be going to the Convention Center and Tourist Corridor. Then you factor in Tampa so the path coming straight down I-4, I can't imagine the expense of shifting in to Disney property over/under I-4 for a station ... and it likely would be a stop right next to I-4 without major disruption. Then you need pedestrian movers to get you to Disney Springs. THEN what about the luggage that is not allowed on Disney buses. I agree with you, why go through all that when you can just book transportation at MCO direct to your hotel. If anything perhaps there will be a stop on I-4 (attached shows train will run down middle) and then elevated walkway over to a drop location at Disney Springs, which will still need some type of transportation to hotels.

 

[Mr. Drauer]

This is the location of the station which was a 2-level structure extending over the road and parking between cast services and the driveway to the Orange garage bus loops.

 

[OKW Lover]

This is the location of the station which was a 2-level structure extending over the road and parking between cast services and the driveway to the Orange garage bus loops. View attachment 688181

Thanks for the map. Can you share where you found this info?

 

[Mr. Drauer]

Thanks for the map. Can you share where you found this info?

It is from the plans set prepared for the project. The design for the project was significantly further along than has been made public.

 

[Mikey15]

I know that routing started with the 417 route in mind, but it just seems so much simpler to do the eventual station parallel to I-4, whether it falls in state ROW or Disney.

With the 528 route set, from Hopper's link it appears they're running a fair bit of the track on MSE walls (basically running track on top of retaining wall parallel to the highway). I really can't see a better place to put a station now than at the corner of Grapefruit and tying into the existing elevated walkway system to DS. Walk to shop/work at DS, or wheel a suitcase to one of the DS hotels.

 

[Mr. Drauer]

I know that routing started with the 417 route in mind, but it just seems so much simpler to do the eventual station parallel to I-4, whether it falls in state ROW or Disney.

With the 528 route set, from Hopper's link it appears they're running a fair bit of the track on MSE walls (basically running track on top of retaining wall parallel to the highway). I really can't see a better place to put a station now than at the corner of Grapefruit and tying into the existing elevated walkway system to DS. Walk to shop/work at DS, or wheel a suitcase to one of the DS hotels.

View attachment 688206

That presentation was from last summer and it was done in an attempt to convince Brightline that the 528 route did not have to cost as much as they stated. Since then, the local gov (Orange County / City , plus I-Drive tourist board) has convinced them to use that route and have a stop at the Convention Center. Disney has never been a participant - they merely were gong to allow Brightline to build a station. Now, they are not going to consider that option - they are out. The rail envelope on I-4 only runs down the center, and does not exist north of 528 so there is no option to go north to Universal within I-4 as some have suggested. The I-4 expansion will be 10 lanes and there will no longer be any additional right-of-way to use for a station. Several of the I-4 expansion/interim projects are either under way or going out for bid this year including the redo of the interchange at Sand Lake Road, additional lanes on the interchange at SR 528, a brand new interchange at Daryl Carter Parkway, a new interchange at SR 535, and an extension of one tolled westbound Express Lane from Universal to Osceola Parkway - all are being done keeping the rail envelope in the plans. A location along the east side of I-4 near the Marriott World Center has been called out by some, but there will be I-4 ponds there along the frontage, and the remainder of the site is owned by Great Wolf Lodge. Brightline's new info shows only the one station at the Convention Center. Everyone looking at this as a potential use for Disney should look elsewhere. The only reason it was ever there was as a destination from Miami / South Florida or Tampa travelers. The line is a high speed facility, not a commuter rail like Sunrail.

 

[Mikey15]

That presentation was from last summer and it was done in an attempt to convince Brightline that the 528 route did not have to cost as much as they stated. Since then, the local gov (Orange County / City , plus I-Drive tourist board) has convinced them to use that route and have a stop at the Convention Center. Disney has never been a participant - they merely were gong to allow Brightline to build a station. Now, they are not going to consider that option - they are out. The rail envelope on I-4 only runs down the center, and does not exist north of 528 so there is no option to go north to Universal within I-4 as some have suggested. The I-4 expansion will be 10 lanes and there will no longer be any additional right-of-way to use for a station. Several of the I-4 expansion/interim projects are either under way or going out for bid this year including the redo of the interchange at Sand Lake Road, additional lanes on the interchange at SR 528, a brand new interchange at Daryl Carter Parkway, a new interchange at SR 535, and an extension of one tolled westbound Express Lane from Universal to Osceola Parkway - all are being done keeping the rail envelope in the plans. A location along the east side of I-4 near the Marriott World Center has been called out by some, but there will be I-4 ponds there along the frontage, and the remainder of the site is owned by Great Wolf Lodge. Brightline's new info shows only the one station at the Convention Center. Everyone looking at this as a potential use for Disney should look elsewhere. The only reason it was ever there was as a destination from Miami / South Florida or Tampa travelers. The line is a high speed facility, not a commuter rail like Sunrail.

That year-ago presentation cited different configurations that would be compatible with I-4 BTU, either preserving the central 44' rail ROW or not, and how that effected the costing.

Absolutely understand things have changed in the last year, but Brightline has publicly announced in the last month not only the transfer station with Sunrail (so Sunrail traffic can switch to OIA or OCCC or...) but also a stop somewhere near WDW property. I'm only saying if there is still going to be, their words, "an alternative station will be located near the original Disney Springs site, albeit not on Disney-owned land," then Grapefruit-vicinity seems to make the most sense. Much longer pedestrian bridges & pathways from I-4 median to any other location of interest in the area.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1541821346686042112

 

[New Mouse]

That presentation was from last summer and it was done in an attempt to convince Brightline that the 528 route did not have to cost as much as they stated. Since then, the local gov (Orange County / City , plus I-Drive tourist board) has convinced them to use that route and have a stop at the Convention Center. Disney has never been a participant - they merely were gong to allow Brightline to build a station. Now, they are not going to consider that option - they are out. The rail envelope on I-4 only runs down the center, and does not exist north of 528 so there is no option to go north to Universal within I-4 as some have suggested. The I-4 expansion will be 10 lanes and there will no longer be any additional right-of-way to use for a station. Several of the I-4 expansion/interim projects are either under way or going out for bid this year including the redo of the interchange at Sand Lake Road, additional lanes on the interchange at SR 528, a brand new interchange at Daryl Carter Parkway, a new interchange at SR 535, and an extension of one tolled westbound Express Lane from Universal to Osceola Parkway - all are being done keeping the rail envelope in the plans. A location along the east side of I-4 near the Marriott World Center has been called out by some, but there will be I-4 ponds there along the frontage, and the remainder of the site is owned by Great Wolf Lodge. Brightline's new info shows only the one station at the Convention Center. Everyone looking at this as a potential use for Disney should look elsewhere. The only reason it was ever there was as a destination from Miami / South Florida or Tampa travelers. The line is a high speed facility, not a commuter rail like Sunrail.

I think you will be surprised about Universal. There are more plans that haven't come out that may be tied even if it is loosely, into this rail project.