Disney Riviera Resort

[amberpi]

It was pure conversion...and dvc is near 100% guaranteed occupancy with probably 1/4 the staffing requirements once sold...

Like fishing with dynamite

Got it. I know why WDW wants to build more DVC and doesn't have true Deluxes, I honestly think most WDW visitors wouldn't get it anyway, and ergo, people looking for that stay at the Four Seasons, etc., get VIP tours and do WDW way different than the peasants...lol.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Got it. I know why WDW wants to build more DVC and doesn't have true Deluxes, I honestly think most WDW visitors wouldn't get it anyway, and ergo, people looking for that stay at the Four Seasons, etc., get VIP tours and do WDW way different than the peasants...lol.

...and knowing is half the battle...

It's part of a deliberate strategy...look at where they've converted/built since iger took over...all places that struggled to fill...

Animal kingdom lodge (which while fantastic had a problem from day one...the theme didn't sell)

Contemporary outer wings

Saratoga (disney institute was a huge flop and they put the condo equivalent of McMansions on top)

The poly (the oldest actual lodging on property was converted...and I gotta wonder if they couldn't sell it at $550 or more a night...something doesn't add up there I'm guessing their occupancy slipped prior)

Wilderness lodge (see above...once popular was overpriced and the bookings dropped off)

Now caribbean...which was incredibly popular as a CHEAP hotel...
But now cheap hotel isn't in the strategy...so they string a ski lift past, build a really dull looking Marriott...and raise the prices of four hotels in one shot...

 

[amberpi]

...and knowing is half the battle...

It's part of a deliberate strategy...look at where they've converted/built since iger took over...all places that struggled to fill...

Animal kingdom lodge (which while fantastic had a problem from day one...the theme didn't sell)

Contemporary outer wings

Saratoga (disney institute was a huge flop and they put the condo equivalent of McMansions on top)

The poly (the oldest actual lodging on property was converted...and I gotta wonder if they couldn't seek it at $550 or more a night...something doesn't add up there I'm guessing their occupancy slipped prior)

Wilderness lodge (see above...once popular was overpriced and the bookings dropped off)

Now caribbean...which was incredibly popular as a CHEAP hotel...
But now cheap hotel isn't in the strategy...so they string a ski lift past, build a really dull looking Marriott...and raise the prices of four hotels in one shot...

That's all good info.

I'm going to say this may not be a bad thing *for me* - I like proper hotels, with all the rooms in a one building and no exterior doors, ergo why I've stayed at the Poly and GF just once and never non-atrium at the CR. While most on the Dis will disagree, I think plenty of travelers will look at something that looks like a Marriott and go with it, as its familiar.

I really appreciate all of you who provide this really good info and respond to my incessant questions.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The other thing about DVC is that dues are paid on all points sold. So even if bungalows sit empty, or Saratoga owners fight for 7 month bookings and leave units empty there, maintenance is paid. A GM doesn't have to go looking for where in the P&L to pay fixed expenses that occur regardless of guest occupancy percentage (pool maintenance! path lights! astroturf! dusting lobby light fixtures!).

 

[amberpi]

The other thing about DVC is that dues are paid on all points sold. So even if bungalows sit empty, or Saratoga owners fight for 7 month bookings and leave units empty there, maintenance is paid. A GM doesn't have to go looking for where in the P&L to pay fixed expenses that occur regardless of guest occupancy percentage (pool maintenance! path lights! astroturf! dusting lobby light fixtures!).

So, does Saratoga gets its dues based on its points, or do the points go into a DVC pot? Are those all used for mainentance or more profit?

 

[Planogirl]

DVC is a nice way to get cash quickly but it feels like such a short-term way to do so. I suspect that a few of these resorts would have had better occupancy if they weren't just so darn over-priced!

I wonder if going for those less desirable DVC spots might be something to consider in the future...

 

[_auroraborealis_]

So, does Saratoga gets its dues based on its points, or do the points go into a DVC pot? Are those all used for mainentance or more profit?

Based on the resort's points. Each resort pays its own maintenance.

There is some built in margin.

 

[danikoski]

There is no way Disney, knowing what they can now charge and get away with, will use those point values. This will be top dollar, top point DVC. Even if it shouldn't be.

Actually, they already have. Points per night are the same at CCV as BRV, which is less than Poly, GF, or BLT most times of the year for most rooms. BLT std is sometimes around the same points. And I could see them putting DRR somewhere in between the WL villas and OKW/SSR. So right now, in beginning June 2018, it costs 120 points to stay a week at WL villas, but only 99 at OKW. I suspect that DRR won't be over CCV, and may land at like 110 points for a week.

Now actual buy in, no, they probably aren't going to lower that. It will probably be in the $170 range like CCV.

 

[nkosiek]

Actually, they already have. Points per night are the same at CCV as BRV, which is less than Poly, GF, or BLT most times of the year for most rooms. BLT std is sometimes around the same points. And I could see them putting DRR somewhere in between the WL villas and OKW/SSR. So right now, in beginning June 2018, it costs 120 points to stay a week at WL villas, but only 99 at OKW. I suspect that DRR won't be over CCV, and may land at like 110 points for a week.

Now actual buy in, no, they probably aren't going to lower that. It will probably be in the $170 range like CCV.

Price per point will be whatever the going rate for CCV is at that time, not a dollar less. I think these will be around CCV/BRV points per night perhaps a few more, except that "fireworks view" which i believe will be closer to BLT lake view.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

DVC is a nice way to get cash quickly but it feels like such a short-term way to do so. I suspect that a few of these resorts would have had better occupancy if they weren't just so darn over-priced!

I wonder if going for those less desirable DVC spots might be something to consider in the future...

Dvc was designed to reduce costs and ensure longterm clientele and the ancillary product sales where the money is made...

There are those that will argue it's some kind of urban MAGA esque simple real estate transaction with profit off the sale...but that's not it. Never was. They seem to want to make it that way now though...which will eat away the foundation over time.

 

[tjkraz]

It's part of a deliberate strategy...look at where they've converted/built since iger took over...all places that struggled to fill...

Part of the problem was that overbuilding in the first place. Like 2000 rooms at Animal Kingdom Lodge.

But reduced demand for Deluxes has always been a byproduct of DVC sales. Anecdotally, most people buying DVC points are those who were previously cash guests at deluxe or moderate resorts. Sell people into a DVC new construction like VWL - Boulder Ridge (which was an add-on to the original hotel), Beach Club Villas (same) or Saratoga, and suddenly there aren't as many people willing to pay cash for those and other locations.

As that reduced occupancy hits certain places harder than others, keep looking for the best ways to make use of the resources available. In the case of Jambo, WL and Poly, it included turning hotel rooms into villas. Places like BLT and now Riviera aren't direct conversions, but still sacrificing hotel space for DVC.

Diabolical plot? Sound business plan? Take your pick.

But now cheap hotel isn't in the strategy...

If they price themselves out of a particular market, the strategy will backfire. By most accounts park attendance is down, so now we see Annual Pass promotions, MYW ticket specials, restaurant discounts, etc.

If Disney uses the gondolas as an excuse to jack-up the rates 25% on POP, AOA and CBR, and a half-million families per year still flock to fill those properties, I know where I'm pointing blame.

so they string a ski lift past, build a really dull looking Marriott...

Personally I'm in no rush to pass judgement on Riviera based upon one piece of concept art and mention of just two resort amenities. 8-10 years ago, DVC management made some questionable design decisions with the likes of Bay Lake Tower and Kidani. More recently, I think they've done a better job with in-room design (Grand Floridian, Poly) and adding/enhancing resort amenities during the WL renovations.

This will be the first entirely new DVC project since...probably Saratoga Springs 15 years ago. No renovations or existing theme to mirror. Hyperbole aside, I'm curious to see what they come up with.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Price per point will be whatever the going rate for CCV is at that time, not a dollar less. I think these will be around CCV/BRV points per night perhaps a few more, except that "fireworks view" which i believe will be closer to BLT lake view.

I hope they don't (because it's bad for all dvc owners)...but I'd like to see them build bay lake (which on its own sucks for amenities) and stick it on the la Quinta property that Caribbean is...and try to sell it at $200 a point and charge 22 points a night...

...it would be one of the fascinating Disney consumer experiments that the consumers consistently fail...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Animal kingdom lodge doesn't have 2000 rooms...

Huh? I think the original lodge was about 800...and kidani is around 350 units or so? I'd have to check that.

 

[tjkraz]

Animal kingdom lodge doesn't have 2000 rooms...

Huh? I think the original lodge was about 800...and kidani is around 350 units or so? I'd have to check that.

Sorry....originally 1600. It's at 1300 today and per my back-of-a-napkin math, about 310-320 hotel rooms were converted to villas.

Jambo currently has 134 villas with another 324 at Kidani.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Part of the problem was that overbuilding in the first place. Like 2000 rooms at Animal Kingdom Lodge.

But reduced demand for Deluxes has always been a byproduct of DVC sales. Anecdotally, most people buying DVC points are those who were previously cash guests at deluxe or moderate resorts. Sell people into a DVC new construction like VWL - Boulder Ridge (which was an add-on to the original hotel), Beach Club Villas (same) or Saratoga, and suddenly there aren't as many people willing to pay cash for those and other locations.

As that reduced occupancy hits certain places harder than others, keep looking for the best ways to make use of the resources available. In the case of Jambo, WL and Poly, it included turning hotel rooms into villas. Places like BLT and now Riviera aren't direct conversions, but still sacrificing hotel space for DVC.

Diabolical plot? Sound business plan? Take your pick.



If they price themselves out of a particular market, the strategy will backfire. By most accounts park attendance is down, so now we see Annual Pass promotions, MYW ticket specials, restaurant discounts, etc.

If Disney uses the gondolas as an excuse to jack-up the rates 25% on POP, AOA and CBR, and a half-million families per year still flock to fill those properties, I know where I'm pointing blame.



Personally I'm in no rush to pass judgement on Riviera based upon one piece of concept art and mention of just two resort amenities. 8-10 years ago, DVC management made some questionable design decisions with the likes of Bay Lake Tower and Kidani. More recently, I think they've done a better job with in-room design (Grand Floridian, Poly) and adding/enhancing resort amenities during the WL renovations.

This will be the first entirely new DVC project since...probably Saratoga Springs 15 years ago. No renovations or existing theme to mirror. Hyperbole aside, I'm curious to see what they come up with.

Dvc does fence rack customers...but it does it at a lower cost so there's really no downside.

The deluxes that have struggled Inoccupancy have been nearly 100% tied to price escalation. The ones That pushed the envelope too far: notably wilderness lodge and the poly...have now seen large conversions. That's not a coincidence.

I've said this before...starting rate at WL in 2002 was $119 a night...it was $350 last year. What once was the booked solid "hidden jewel"...became "uhhh...no..."

How bad do you have to overprice something in wdw that people actually start to reject it? It's not the hotel...it was the price.

As far as new development...we'll see. They didn't add any amenities at the grand Floridian other than a splash pad...and they really did a necessary replacement at poly that would have to been done anyway (like contemporary) prior.

Caribbean doesn't have the stuff for this approach. It's way more Saratoga as far as "meh" grounds...so we'll
See what they do. I think they're still in culture shock from aulani and I'm interested to see what they do...

...maybe they should dredge that Channel...

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

There are those that will argue it's some kind of urban MAGA esque simple real estate transaction with profit off the sale...but that's not it. Never was. They seem to want to make it that way now though...which will eat away the foundation over time.

I really don't get this. I worked in timeshare briefly years ago, and $$$ absolutely WAS made off the sale. And how will this "eat away the foundation over time".?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I really don't get this. I worked in timeshare briefly years ago, and $$$ absolutely WAS made off the sale. And how will this "eat away the foundation over time".?

What was the difference between the timeshares you sold and what disney does...specifically where?

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

They didn't add any amenities at the grand Floridian other than a splash pad...

What should get have added in your view? What does GF need to satisfy that clientele?

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

What was the difference between the timeshares you sold and what disney does...specifically where?

Timeshare a few minutes from Disneyland, and one in Gaslamp Quarter in San Diego while I worked there.

Why not just spit it out instead of 20 questions? Your statement wasn't (isn't) clear to me which is why I asked.

1) How is it that Disney was NOT making $$$ in the sale, and 2) how will doing this now "eat away at the foundation over time"?

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Domestic park profit (WDW) is fine at this point, "reduced visitors" or no. The corporate balance sheets are not being harmed by domestic theme park or resort operations. The weakness in the corporate bottom line is all in entertainment, not parks.

I don't know that it's 100% a bad thing to price up and reduce actual volume of sweaty beings passing through the gates. There's a tipping point for crowds where it harms the experience.