Direct Pricing- Riviera brilliance

[brazzledazzler]

I don't want to be "that math guy," but the reality is that I am, so let's talk about Riviera's problem of Points Devaluation.

Riviera Resort has between 341 and 440 rooms for DVC, depending on how many of them are used as 2 BR vs lockoffs. It has a total value of between 6.75 and 7.2 million points. Compare this to AKV, which sits between 458 and 753 rooms (again depending on LO) and a total points value of 7.3 to 7.8 million points. So your average room at RIV holds 16 to 19,000 points, whereas your average AKV room holds 10 to 15,000 points (always depending on whether it's two rooms or one). That's a 25 to 50% gap in points of the room itself, which is reflected in points charts but not in points purchase cost either resale or direct.

And so on and so forth compared to the others as well. Across every category of room, Riviera is almost always the most expensive on a per-night basis, because the rooms hold so many points, usually by a lot. A standard-view DS at Riviera costs 19.1 per night average, higher than any other standard DS except Aulani (and higher than a DS ocean view in Vero Beach or Savannah View in AKV). It gets worse as you pile on rooms and views; for example RIV 1 BR with a park view is higher per-night than AKV 2-BR Savannah view; its 3-BR standard view is comparable to the BLT 3-BR theme park view.

So what I'm saying is, for the same room in RIV, anticipate paying more points, so you should expect to have to buy more points. So they should offer great deals, because you're buying points with a lower "exchange rate" compared to other resorts. In some ways, that makes the Riviera resale restrictions protective for previous resale owners, as contracts will probably tend be larger on average to account for higher points need when purchasing RIV. If you could use those RIV resale points on the OG 14 resorts then legacy resale owners would get crowded out by higher-point RIV resale owners. (I confess this is a highly charitable reason for these restrictions that likely bears no resemblance to reality).

Of course DVC is not a perfect economic system, and much of the above is simple math that leaves out some nuance, but it pretty cleanly illustrates the Points Devaluation problem of RIV. And your eyes are probably crossed by now, so we'll just stop it here.

Suffice to say, though, I have given this matter quite a bit of thought.

I think you make great points. If we bought at RIV we are considering buying more points than if we buy at another resort. The incentives make it easier to say "yes" to a few more points!

 

[ajsanford]

Lots of great info for anyone who doesn’t have a preference for where they want to stay.

But, no matter what analysis is done, IMO, it still comes down to spending your money…and DVC is a lot of $$$…on the place you want to be at,

Saving thousands now and staying at resorts that stretch points is great if you will be happy. But, if you won’t be, it’s not worth it. I think this includes RIV and why people are buying..,once they see and experience the resort, many have decided it’s worth it!

agreed!! We bought riv, because the direct pricing was one of the best deals (IMO) and ideally, we wanted the quick access to HS and Epcot- we love AKV and hope to stay there as well as many other resorts, but do we want to stay there every time- nope! We want to be able to be at riv for food and wine! I’m willing to pay a premium in points for the skyliner!

CCV seems awesome and the value is there too, but I believe the 1 BR only sleep 4 (big con for us), and again, the skyliner access really tipped us towards RIV.

BCV or BWV would have been amazing but with a 1 year old baby, we wanted a longer contract!

RIV covered all of our needs and wants and I can still stay at other places if they are available at 7 months! We aren’t planning to sell but we did get a fixed week just in case!

 

[ajsanford]

I was considering a FW (since it would hold better resell value), but we don't travel just 1x a year. We live 2 hours away, so we do a lot of small trips to Disney (2-4 nights) rather than week-long trips.

I will go search the thread about buying a FW at RIV though since you mentioned it. Thanks for the tip!

you don’t have to use the fixed week! You can cancel for the year and use those points just like normal points. I don’t plan to use mine for at least the next several years!

 

[brazzledazzler]

agreed!! We bought riv, because the direct pricing was one of the best deals (IMO) and ideally, we wanted the quick access to HS and Epcot- we love AKV and hope to stay there as well as many other resorts, but do we want to stay there every time- nope! We want to be able to be at riv for food and wine! I’m willing to pay a premium in points for the skyliner!

CCV seems awesome and the value is there too, but I believe the 1 BR only sleep 4 (big con for us), and again, the skyliner access really tipped us towards RIV.

BCV or BWV would have been amazing but with a 1 year old baby, we wanted a longer contract!

RIV covered all of our needs and wants and I can still stay at other places if they are available at 7 months! We aren’t planning to sell but we did get a fixed week just in case!

You bring up all my concerns with other resorts too! This is why we are heavily leaning RIV.

I love the Wilderness Lodge, but I fear the rooms are going to feel tiny in comparison.

I know very little about Fixed Weeks, I need to search the boards about all the details it seems.

 

[brazzledazzler]

you don’t have to use the fixed week! You can cancel for the year and use those points just like normal points. I don’t plan to use mine for at least the next several years!

I haven't explored anything about Fixed Weeks... I guess I have research to do. I feel like I've learned so much about DVC during the past month...but there's so much more to learn!

 

[brazzledazzler]

you don’t have to use the fixed week! You can cancel for the year and use those points just like normal points. I don’t plan to use mine for at least the next several years!

If you don't mind me asking, what is the pricing difference for a Fixed Week? If I'm reading the FW Thread correctly, it sounds expensive.

 

[TCRAIG]

I looked at RIV - love the rooms but not the points chart and did not like the Skyliner - so I’m sticking with BLT and VGF because I can always walk to MK and (once it’s back up and running) ride the Monorail to Epcot…

 

[sethschroeder]

If you don't mind me asking, what is the pricing difference for a Fixed Week? If I'm reading the FW Thread correctly, it sounds expensive.

It's all over including some weeks which are actually less expensive on fixed week than booking.

You really just need to compare what it costs to book the 7 nights normally vs the fixed week. Since fixed week point costs are locked you could end up with something that's a great deal or not.

Also long term never a need to use it but it's a nice Ace up your sleeve if it's needed in the future.

 

[ajsanford]

It's all over including some weeks which are actually less expensive on fixed week than booking.

You really just need to compare what it costs to book the 7 nights normally vs the fixed week. Since fixed week point costs are locked you could end up with something that's a great deal or not.

Also long term never a need to use it but it's a nice Ace up your sleeve if it's needed in the future.

Here is the chart for RIV. We did week 47, standard studio, so 150 points total.
It is supposedly a 10% premium of points (granted, they can change the point charts and the number of points for the guaranteed week can't change which is why it could be a good or bad value).

Another thing is you could cancel that guaranteed week reservation, and assuming the week is available, rebook the week at the regular number of points.

 

[havoc315]

Riviera is a nicer resort with a Skyliner to use to two different parks including the park that always has the festivals and a ton of food options.



Except RIV is below VGF/Poly and in the ballpark of BLT.

When comparing to AKV I can get that at 7 months most of the time so my points go just as far. Same for those with SSR and OKW points.

Flip side you will never likely get a standard view or tower studio without owning there and unlike Value or Club level it's something more plausible to get.

I will say my direct points from RIV I got for $155/point so even as sleep around its pretty good as direct points but I will normally stay at RIV is the plan.

All correct ... Riviera has the highest point chart! Oh.. except for the resorts with even higher charts! (VGF and Poly).

But you get what you pay for. Yacht Club is more expensive than All Star Music! Umm, yes... and Yacht Club is much nicer than All Star Music.

Riviera rooms are among the largest across categories. (Studios second only to Poly, 1 BR behind only OKW and GFV, 2 BR second only to OKW). So yes, the rooms at Riviera cost far more points than a room at BWV, but a room at Riviera is much nicer and larger than a room at BWV. You get what you pay for.

Now, there are lots of subjective factors. Even aside from price, there are lots of variables so different people will like different resorts. But there are certainly plenty of people who will find the point charts at Riviera to be fairly priced, slightly lower than GFV and Poly, slightly higher than BLT.

 

[brazzledazzler]

Here is the chart for RIV. We did week 47, standard studio, so 150 points total.
It is supposedly a 10% premium of points (granted, they can change the point charts and the number of points for the guaranteed week can't change which is why it could be a good or bad value).

Another thing is you could cancel that guaranteed week reservation, and assuming the week is available, rebook the week at the regular number of points.

Thank you for sharing! I reviewed and read about FWs, and it definitely has some benefits.

Unfortunately, a FW doesn't have much value for my family. We are Florida residents and don't travel to Disney consistently on any specific week. We have certain times we go, but not for a week! The premium doesn't attract us.

I definitely think that a RIV contract with a FW could be very lucrative in the long-run and definitely help DVC members who want to be there at certain times of the year. However, I don't think our family is the best match for the FW.

 

[achinforsomebacon]

Thank you for sharing! I reviewed and read about FWs, and it definitely has some benefits.

Unfortunately, a FW doesn't have much value for my family. We are Florida residents and don't travel to Disney consistently on any specific week. We have certain times we go, but not for a week! The premium doesn't attract us.

I definitely think that a RIV contract with a FW could be very lucrative in the long-run and definitely help DVC members who want to be there at certain times of the year. However, I don't think our family is the best match for the FW.

If you're planning on purchasing points close to the amount needed for a fixed week, it's not really costing you anything to get the fixed week. For example, if you were thinking of getting 250 points, you could get a FW for a standard view 1 BR for weeks 1-3, 36-38, or 48. You're still paying the same amount per point for the 250 points. The additional "cost" is that if you actually use the FW, you'd potentially be using 10% more points to book than if you didn't (as pointed out above, it's possible the FW would actually be less depending on how the charts change). The FW gets booked outside of 11 months. You can cancel it every year. You can use it 1/2/50 times. You could get a FW for a difficult to get reservation and rent it out as a backup plan for years you don't use the points.

If the FW points are in line with what you're planning, the only downsides I see are 1) you would need to cancel the FW every year if you don't want to use it, which shouldn't really be an issue and 2) if you ever sold the contract, I think there's still confusion over how it actually works, which could turn someone off from buying. On the flipside, the FW option could result in a higher resale value, especially if it's a popular week.

 

[brazzledazzler]

If you're planning on purchasing points close to the amount needed for a fixed week, it's not really costing you anything to get the fixed week. For example, if you were thinking of getting 250 points, you could get a FW for a standard view 1 BR for weeks 1-3, 36-38, or 48. You're still paying the same amount per point for the 250 points. The additional "cost" is that if you actually use the FW, you'd potentially be using 10% more points to book than if you didn't (as pointed out above, it's possible the FW would actually be less depending on how the charts change). The FW gets booked outside of 11 months. You can cancel it every year. You can use it 1/2/50 times. You could get a FW for a difficult to get reservation and rent it out as a backup plan for years you don't use the points.

If the FW points are in line with what you're planning, the only downsides I see are 1) you would need to cancel the FW every year if you don't want to use it, which shouldn't really be an issue and 2) if you ever sold the contract, I think there's still confusion over how it actually works, which could turn someone off from buying. On the flipside, the FW option could result in a higher resale value, especially if it's a popular week.

Ah, ok. I think I understand better now. It's definitely an interesting option and has the potential to be helpful for resale.

 

[IceSkatingPrincess]

RIV gives someone 16 extra years too. For younger buyers, this should be seen as a positive.

You described my fiancé and I perfectly. We are somewhat younger and going to be with DVC for the long haul. We love RIV and felt like it was a good shot for us to get our blue card at a good price with incentives. Everything just fell into place.

This was us as well. I'm 28. Length of contract was huge for our long-term DVC plan.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

I don't want to be "that math guy," but the reality is that I am, so let's talk about Riviera's problem of Points Devaluation.

Riviera Resort has between 341 and 440 rooms for DVC, depending on how many of them are used as 2 BR vs lockoffs. It has a total value of between 6.75 and 7.2 million points. Compare this to AKV, which sits between 458 and 753 rooms (again depending on LO) and a total points value of 7.3 to 7.8 million points. So your average room at RIV holds 16 to 19,000 points, whereas your average AKV room holds 10 to 15,000 points (always depending on whether it's two rooms or one). That's a 25 to 50% gap in points of the room itself, which is reflected in points charts but not in points purchase cost either resale or direct.

And so on and so forth compared to the others as well. Across every category of room, Riviera is almost always the most expensive on a per-night basis, because the rooms hold so many points, usually by a lot. A standard-view DS at Riviera costs 19.1 per night average, higher than any other standard DS except Aulani (and higher than a DS ocean view in Vero Beach or Savannah View in AKV). It gets worse as you pile on rooms and views; for example RIV 1 BR with a park view is higher per-night than AKV 2-BR Savannah view; its 3-BR standard view is comparable to the BLT 3-BR theme park view.

So what I'm saying is, for the same room in RIV, anticipate paying more points, so you should expect to have to buy more points. So they should offer great deals, because you're buying points with a lower "exchange rate" compared to other resorts. In some ways, that makes the Riviera resale restrictions protective for previous resale owners, as contracts will probably tend be larger on average to account for higher points need when purchasing RIV. If you could use those RIV resale points on the OG 14 resorts then legacy resale owners would get crowded out by higher-point RIV resale owners. (I confess this is a highly charitable reason for these restrictions that likely bears no resemblance to reality).

Of course DVC is not a perfect economic system, and much of the above is simple math that leaves out some nuance, but it pretty cleanly illustrates the Points Devaluation problem of RIV. And your eyes are probably crossed by now, so we'll just stop it here.

Suffice to say, though, I have given this matter quite a bit of thought.

Great breakdown! One more thing I would add is the MFs. As a brand new resort, and it being a tower, I'm not sure why RIV MFs are so high. And the potential for its increase, especially with the skyliner, scared me a bit. Even though the rooms are bigger and nicer, I opted to buy CCV direct instead due to the lower MFs, not having the resale restrictions, and the 2068 expiration, which is only 2 years less than RIV. I also love the whole PNW theming, esp during the holidays,....even though rooms there are very hard to book, even at 11mos. We can't have it all I suppose. I DO love those room layouts at RIV as CCV rooms are so tiny. Really looking forward to the BRV refurb. It'll be like CCV with large size rooms!

 

[brazzledazzler]

Great breakdown! One more thing I would add is the MFs. As a brand new resort, and it being a tower, I'm not sure why RIV MFs are so high. And the potential for its increase, especially with the skyliner, scared me a bit. Even though the rooms are bigger and nicer, I opted to buy CCV direct instead due to the lower MFs, not having the resale restrictions, and the 2068 expiration, which is only 2 years less than RIV. I also love the whole PNW theming, esp during the holidays,....even though rooms there are very hard to book, even at 11mos. We can't have it all I suppose. I DO love those room layouts at RIV as CCV rooms are so tiny. Really looking forward to the BRV refurb. It'll be like CCV with large size rooms!

Is booking CCV studios truly a problem at 11 months all year, or is this an exaggeration? I don’t see many reports of DVC CCV owners unable to book at CCV.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

Is booking CCV studios truly a problem at 11 months all year, or is this an exaggeration? I don’t see many reports of DVC CCV owners unable to book at CCV.

it's difficult to get a studio for a week or more during most times,...damn near impossible during the Christmas season. You haveto walk if you want to get a studio during that time, probably like 13 months out.

 

[ajsanford]

I just went and looked at the availability for CCV studios in April and May, and besides the first week of April and a few days here and there, it is pretty open. I would just think you need to be ready to book at 11 months!

 

[sethschroeder]

I just went and looked at the availability for CCV studios in April and May, and besides the first week of April and a few days here and there, it is pretty open. I would just think you need to be ready to book at 11 months!

End of April and May will be one of the slowest times for DVC.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

RIVs basement isn't much different than SSR.

Is that really saying much that is good though? SSR cost most buyers around $100/pt less than Riviera and is 15 years older. And the basement on them is about the same? That doesn't really seem like a good thing.

As Riviera ages it will become like all the other existing resorts. Start look a teensy bit dated compared to anything new. Maybe not have the best restaurants anymore etc. etc and so that comparison of shiny new will fade to resemble all the others. Then it will get down to the basics when resale buyers are shopping and the resale restrictions will matter more than for the few buying resale now. We still have a ways to go to see how the resale restrictions play out. The dropping of 2042 resorts wouldn't concern me as there's still going to be a lot more for resale buyers at the pre-Riviera to book than Riviera and later.

Riviera rooms are among the largest across categories. (Studios second only to Poly, 1 BR behind only OKW and GFV, 2 BR second only to OKW). So yes, the rooms at Riviera cost far more points than a room at BWV, but a room at Riviera is much nicer and larger than a room at BWV. You get what you pay for.

I look forward to seeing one of the actual RIV studios sometime as the models certainly weren't that large at the preview center. I was staying at VGF at the time and would have made them out to be very close to the same size. And if the 1BR's were built the same it left a bunch of open space in the living area and a much smaller bedroom than say, VGF.

Is booking CCV studios truly a problem at 11 months all year, or is this an exaggeration? I don’t see many reports of DVC CCV owners unable to book at CCV.

Whenever this comes up there are CCV owners that chime in that they haven't had a problem. It seems like you don't want to miss the 11 month window but as long as they hit that they seem satisfied.