did your son in law ask your permission to marry your daughter? and how?

[Ember]

I think too many people do get the panties in a wad over things like this. Sure if the world really thought that women were still property, it would be a problem. But here, we aren't. And those that still think so, well then stupid woman for marrying them in the first place, and if it got far enough for the man to ask the father, then the bride is at fault for not being woman enough to think for herself or to dumb to realize and maybe she does need to be taken care of. I think that some of the over the top attitudes of being offended are what give equal rights a bad name. Man haters, Gloria Steinem or what ever her crazy woman's name was.comes to mind. If people don't like the tradition, then so be it, don't do it. But to be so offended is kind of silly to me.

My DH didn't ask my fathers permission, but my dad did walk me down the isle and "give me away". My father wasn't a stupid man, he knew he didn't own me, he had way too much respect for women, and he was a depression baby, so he was around way before the women's movement. But there is no way I would have not had my father do this, I LOVED it. If others don't, fine, but really no need to get so offended by tradition. If people want to really get upset, get upset over female castration, something that is still going on in other countries, something real and very much worth being offended and outrages, knot some silly tradition that has no meaning what so ever at this point in time.

I'm pretty impressed. In one post you managed to direct at me, personally, the attributes of: Being silly. Being interesting in an issue that is, in your opinion, not worth thinking about. You compared me to a man-hater and insinuated my thoughts were harmful to equal rights. Then you tried to tell me what is worthy, in your opinion, of my concern if I want to be concerned about an issue. And then you dismissed my opinion all in one go. That's pretty impressive.

This is not something I stay up at night and fret about, but the issue was raised and then someone specifically asked why someone would hold that opinion: "Its always fascinating to me how different opinions are formed and how differently people see things." So I elaborated.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I do feel the issues of marriage traditions is worth discussion and examination. That doesn't make me silly or stupid, just interested in something you aren't.

 

[disykat]

I think too many people do get the panties in a wad over things like this. Sure if the world really thought that women were still property, it would be a problem. But here, we aren't. And those that still think so, well then stupid woman for marrying them in the first place, and if it got far enough for the man to ask the father, then the bride is at fault for not being woman enough to think for herself or to dumb to realize and maybe she does need to be taken care of. I think that some of the over the top attitudes of being offended are what give equal rights a bad name. Man haters, Gloria Steinem or what ever her crazy woman's name was.comes to mind. If people don't like the tradition, then so be it, don't do it. But to be so offended is kind of silly to me.

My DH didn't ask my fathers permission, but my dad did walk me down the isle and "give me away". My father wasn't a stupid man, he knew he didn't own me, he had way too much respect for women, and he was a depression baby, so he was around way before the women's movement. But there is no way I would have not had my father do this, I LOVED it. If others don't, fine, but really no need to get so offended by tradition. If people want to really get upset, get upset over female castration, something that is still going on in other countries, something real and very much worth being offended and outrages, knot some silly tradition that has no meaning what so ever at this point in time.

Yes, someone's panties are in a wad! Why are you so offended that people find something offensive? Good grief.

 

[goofyernmost]

I guess I always thought of my daughters as independent and intelligent women. It never occurred to me that anyone should need to ask my permission for them to agree to marry them. That was their decision completely.

If at one time the tradition of "giving" the bride away meant transfer of ownership, that entire meaning in 21st century western culture now is nothing more then a symbolic transfer of households from Mom and Dad's care to Husband and Wife caring for each other. A symbolic transfer from young child to mature woman. Nothing more.

I'm not sure what I would have said if one of my "sons in law" had asked me for their hand. After I laughed, I would have probably said something flippant like...it's not mine to give. If she's willing to put up with you...who am I to argue. I might also add that "there's no dowry comes with this transaction, you know!"

 

[disykat]

I guess I always thought of my daughters as independent and intelligent women. It never occurred to me that anyone should need to ask my permission for them to agree to marry them. That was their decision completely.

If at one time the tradition of "giving" the bride away meant transfer of ownership, that entire meaning in 21st century western culture now is nothing more then a symbolic transfer of households from Mom and Dad's care to Husband and Wife caring for each other. A symbolic transfer from young child to mature woman. Nothing more.

I'm not sure what I would have said if one of my "sons in law" had asked me for their hand. After I laughed, I would have probably said something flippant like...it's not mine to give. If she's willing to put up with you...who am I to argue. I might also add that "there's no dowry comes with this transaction, you know!"

I think a lot of people would disagree with you on that one! I agree that many think it's a symbolic transfer of some sort. I'm not quite sure what of because many women who marry now are not only mature, but have not lived in their father's "care" for a while. Maybe a transfer of who is "next of kin?"

I think most people don't really think too much about the symbolism. They just know it's a tradition.

 

[cornflake]

I'm pretty impressed. In one post you managed to direct at me, personally, the attributes of: Being silly. Being interesting in an issue that is, in your opinion, not worth thinking about. You compared me to a man-hater and insinuated my thoughts were harmful to equal rights. Then you tried to tell me what is worthy, in your opinion, of my concern if I want to be concerned about an issue. And then you dismissed my opinion all in one go. That's pretty impressive.

This is not something I stay up at night and fret about, but the issue was raised and then someone specifically asked why someone would hold that opinion: "Its always fascinating to me how different opinions are formed and how differently people see things." So I elaborated.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I do feel the issues of marriage traditions is worth discussion and examination. That doesn't make me silly or stupid, just interested in something you aren't.

She also referred to Gloria Steinem as "crazy," among other things.

 

[mrsklamc]

See, I think for most couples it's the wedding that's the outdated tradition in our society anymore. Nothing's really changed, they've already lived together for awhile, they just happen to be having a big party.

 

[bellarella]

As one of the first to be "offended" by the tradition, I'll add my $0.02 again.

Unlike wearing white, changing name, having father escort down the aisle, asking "permission" just can't be recast -- it would happen before my daughter was consulted and it would not be her choice. I would not want my FSIL talking to me about marrying my daughter before he has asked my daughter if she wants to marry him. I do not belong in this discussion until my daughter has given her consent. If the *couple* wants to talk to us about it after the fact, that's great. But I have no business being consulted in advance of my daughter being asked.

Further, this is a rather fundamental point in the way we have raised our children. We see marriage as an equal partnership. If a FSIL came to us to ask, he either (1) doesn't share our values or (2) didn't get to know us well enough before "asking." Either way, it's a big strike.

 

[mhsjax]

She also referred to Gloria Steinem as "crazy," among other things.

She is.

 

[mhsjax]

I'm pretty impressed. In one post you managed to direct at me, personally, the attributes of: Being silly. Being interesting in an issue that is, in your opinion, not worth thinking about. You compared me to a man-hater and insinuated my thoughts were harmful to equal rights. Then you tried to tell me what is worthy, in your opinion, of my concern if I want to be concerned about an issue. And then you dismissed my opinion all in one go. That's pretty impressive.

This is not something I stay up at night and fret about, but the issue was raised and then someone specifically asked why someone would hold that opinion: "Its always fascinating to me how different opinions are formed and how differently people see things." So I elaborated.

If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I do feel the issues of marriage traditions is worth discussion and examination. That doesn't make me silly or stupid, just interested in something you aren't.

I am impressed also, I never said "you" I said some of the attitudes here, are you all of these attitudes? It is also interesting to me, and I know many of the traditions and why they were used. But I can unlike 'SOME', not necessarily "YOU"I can get over these and just assume that these men are just following tradition and thinking they are being respectful and trying to get in good with the future in laws and not really trying to keep women down.

 

[goofyernmost]

I think most people don't really think too much about the symbolism. They just know it's a tradition.

OK, but tradition is symbolism in this case. Since the original concept no longer holds true for our culture, then it is just a traditions act that symbolizes first, the giving away of a daughter (no longer valid) and second, the passing of child to husband or maturing to that point. It doesn't really matter anyway...it is a completely personal and private situation that is only right or wrong in the eyes of the participant. Outside observers have no rights to draw any conclusions about it.

Oh, one can have an opinion about whether they would participate or not, but standing in judgment is really above and beyond anyone elses place.

 

[epcotprincess]

I feel as though asking for parental blessing of the union is not the same as asking for permission to marry the daughter. I believe it is a show of respect, and maybe old fashioned, but it is thoughtful IMO. I don't think less of a couple if the groom chose not to do this, but my DH did talk to my dad and ask for his blessing, and I was very glad to hear that.

Additionally, many of the traditions we find sweet or endearing have less than savory roots. For instance, many people still find it sweet when a groom whisks his new bride over the threshold, but most people don't know that it began as a commemoration of the rape of the Sabine women. Lots of things are like that. What matters is what it stands for today and how each individual couple views it.

 

[cornflake]

She is.

Gloria Steinem is a lot of things. Crazy is not one of them. You may disagree with her and... I don't know, think people shouldn't be treated equally, that's your right. Doesn't make Steinem crazy.

 

[NHdisneylover]

As one of the first to be "offended" by the tradition, I'll add my $0.02 again.

Unlike wearing white, changing name, having father escort down the aisle, asking "permission" just can't be recast -- it would happen before my daughter was consulted and it would not be her choice. I would not want my FSIL talking to me about marrying my daughter before he has asked my daughter if she wants to marry him. I do not belong in this discussion until my daughter has given her consent. If the *couple* wants to talk to us about it after the fact, that's great. But I have no business being consulted in advance of my daughter being asked.

Further, this is a rather fundamental point in the way we have raised our children. We see marriage as an equal partnership. If a FSIL came to us to ask, he either (1) doesn't share our values or (2) didn't get to know us well enough before "asking." Either way, it's a big strike.

Great point--all of these other things are up to the bride, but the asking would happen without her input--which is a different ball of wax.

I feel as though asking for parental blessing of the union is not the same as asking for permission to marry the daughter. I believe it is a show of respect, and maybe old fashioned, but it is thoughtful IMO. I don't think less of a couple if the groom chose not to do this, but my DH did talk to my dad and ask for his blessing, and I was very glad to hear that.

Additionally, many of the traditions we find sweet or endearing have less than savory roots. For instance, many people still find it sweet when a groom whisks his new bride over the threshold, but most people don't know that it began as a commemoration of the rape of the Sabine women. Lots of things are like that. What matters is what it stands for today and how each individual couple views it.

Really? I have always heard it was one several possibilities and that the more or less same custom evolved in many cultures. The one I have heard most is:

1. a throw back to ancient Greek or Roman superstition that if a bride trips the first time she is entering her new home that the couple will have bad luck in their marriage--carry her and she cannot trip.

Googling history of carrying bride across threshhold, at least the firt two pages have all kinds of reasons but none of them are raping Sabinewomen (which was quite possibly only myth anyway--and which is using the term "rape" in a way we don't think of it--it meant abduction and was really because they were married out of the tribe--maybe kidnapped or maybe left at will, hard to say, but not rape as we see ti today in any case (if I remember class well----too late to google more, I have to get a kid to school).

 

[srferson]

It doesn't really matter anyway...it is a completely personal and private situation that is only right or wrong in the eyes of the participant. Outside observers have no rights to draw any conclusions about it.

Oh, one can have an opinion about whether they would participate or not, but standing in judgment is really above and beyond anyone elses place.

Thank you!

I've found this discussion extremely interesting as far as the different viewpoints are concerned. Whether you agree with the custom or not, find it offensive or not, choose to participate or not... That's all personal opinions and viewpoints and I'd never tell someone they were wrong to feel the way they do.

However, there are some people who are making extremely rude and close-minded generalizations. If you think you can pin down someone's entire personality or judge someone's relationship based on one tradition they choose to follow, you are making the assumption that everyone must view things exactly as you do. And you are flat out wrong.

 

[joviroxx]

This discussion still fascinates me.. Im glad my DH sat down with my parents and asked for their blessing, not their permission, but their blessing, especially since my parents were paying for the wedding (yep, we are traditionalist!) It wouldn't have bothered me if he had asked for permission as it would have been my choice anyway. But I certainly didn't feel my self-worth as a woman was being threatened or ignored. I'm a strong, independent woman and really never felt I was being looked at as property or weak or was I offended.

It made me think of DH as brave and respectful. We still laugh about it now as I know how nervous he was to do this. Especially,l since in the end, he still had to get ME to say yes or it would have been all for naught LOL!

But again, that's just how I look at it....

 

[violetrose]

I feel as though asking for parental blessing of the union is not the same as asking for permission to marry the daughter.

Agreed. Maybe that is where we are getting tripped up?

 

[violetrose]

As one of the first to be "offended" by the tradition, I'll add my $0.02 again.

Unlike wearing white, changing name, having father escort down the aisle, asking "permission" just can't be recast -- it would happen before my daughter was consulted and it would not be her choice. I would not want my FSIL talking to me about marrying my daughter before he has asked my daughter if she wants to marry him. I do not belong in this discussion until my daughter has given her consent. If the *couple* wants to talk to us about it after the fact, that's great. But I have no business being consulted in advance of my daughter being asked.

Further, this is a rather fundamental point in the way we have raised our children. We see marriage as an equal partnership. If a FSIL came to us to ask, he either (1) doesn't share our values or (2) didn't get to know us well enough before "asking." Either way, it's a big strike.

All snark aside, what does a strike mean if a blessing is not relevant? What are the consequences of a strike?

 

[srferson]

I was talking to my husband about this earlier. In his mind, it was just a matter of propriety. Which I can understand.

I mean, he's an atheist and I'm an agnostic, yet we don't think twice about saying 'Bless you' when someone sneezes. It's just polite.

After talking to him about it he said that if he knew that I viewed it negatively he would have been sure to phrase it more as a request for their blessing than asking their permission. He still felt talking to them was something he wanted to do as a way of being respectful and polite to them. (I then asked him if I told him I really didn't want him to approach them at all, would he still have done it. To which he said no, of course not. He would still have wanted to as a matter of respect, but wouldn't because my feelings about it matter more than anything.)

I understand the different viewpoints. I just hope you parents, if ever approached by a potential son-in-law in such a way, can keep an open mind to the possibility that the implication that your daughter is property is so far from his mind that he didn't even worry about it holding that meaning anymore. He viewed it as a matter of propriety and respect and nothing more.

Perhaps we've reached a point where the idea that a woman is property is viewed as so ridiculous that it's not the first place that everyone's mind goes. When my father was walking me down the aisle I can tell you that the idea that he was handing me off as a piece of property was so old-fashioned and absurd that it didn't even enter my mind.


Another thing I'm curious about if people wish to share... How many of you were actually surprised when proposed to? My husband and I had already been talking about it for a long time. We both knew it was what we wanted, it just hadn't been made "official" yet.

 

[Pigeon]

Perhaps we've reached a point where the idea that a woman is property is viewed as so ridiculous that it's not the first place that everyone's mind goes. When my father was walking me down the aisle I can tell you that the idea that he was handing me off as a piece of property was so old-fashioned and absurd that it didn't even enter my mind.

Perhaps it's not the first place that everyone's mind goes, but if it even occurs to a man to ask a woman's father to marry her, it seems to me that we haven't progressed nearly far enough.

 

[disykat]

All snark aside, what does a strike mean if a blessing is not relevant? What are the consequences of a strike?

Obviously a strike has no consequences, just as a blessing has none. Many people who think the tradition is great have said they would ignore the answer if they didn't agree with it.


One way or the other, it could affect a potential inlaw relationship and cause the parent to harbor some concerned feelings about the union.

Clearly the person who considers it a "strike" is just stating their feelings, just as the people who consider it great are when they want that tradition followed.

My gut feeling is that most people don't care that much, and would try to take it in the spirit it is presented.

I'm one for whom it would be a "strike." That doesn't mean I'd foam from the mouth and refuse to come to the wedding. I'd simply tell the groom to be that I won't be talking with him about a potential wedding unless they both come to me having made that decision because I believe that's a decision they should make together.