Define "A pattern of rental activity for profit"

[crisi]

I believe Dean has said the court case references condos. While a timeshare is a form of condo association, it is possible that if this were to go to court, timeshares would be different enough from condos for a judge to hold them to different rules.

I am not a lawyer, but I did used to be a paralegal, and case law is funny stuff. It wouldn't surprise me at all for a court case to go either way.

 

[Plutofan]

Disney collects the proper taxes when they rent their inventory. I doubt most commercial renters were collecting and paying taxes - big difference. I think the limit on transfers will help that problem. How would a commercial renter that's not paying taxes on their business have a leg to stand on and expect Disney to "let" them use their property to do something illegal? To me there's a big difference between someone that can't use all their points and rents them and somebody that's running a DVC rental business.

This would apply to any person that rents no matter how small that does not collect proper taxes.

 

[Joni]

2 years ago we were on the boat going to DD from OKW and it was only my husband, sister and her husband with one other couple on the boat. I always like to start up a conversation and find out where people are from so started talking to the other couple. By the time we reached our destination I had found out that this man owned 6000 points I believe all at OKW. I realize you can not own that many yourself and I'm sure he explained all that but I can't remember the details. He told me he rents on ebay and gave me his name and I did look it up when I got back to Michigan. I found 2 of his listings back in 2004 but have not looked for them since. I guess I don't have a problem with this if he rents just what he bought. That way he is only using his points at the 11 month just like anyone else would. Maybe I'm wrong about this and have not really thought it out. I never realized that you could tranfer points from someone else and then they became your points at your home resort. That seems wrong and a abuse of the system. Of course I do believe Disney should be able to figure out how to track this so it can't happen. I have 3 resorts all the same use year but I still have to wait for 7 month window to book because I always want to use the banked points. At least bringing all this up has certainly educated me about things I never knew or even considered.

 

[salmoneous]

Disney is not about to spell out the terms of what is commerical renting. The second they do so, they allow people to do whatever they want just up to the line.

And I'm kind of cracking up with all the people thinking that Disney would get their butt sued if they enfored the rule. What exactly are the grounds you think people will use to sue? Or the folks thinking there will be a class action suit - what's the class and what's the suit.

 

[TCPluto]

Disney collects the proper taxes when they rent their inventory. I doubt most commercial renters were collecting and paying taxes - big difference. I think the limit on transfers will help that problem. How would a commercial renter that's not paying taxes on their business have a leg to stand on and expect Disney to "let" them use their property to do something illegal? To me there's a big difference between someone that can't use all their points and rents them and somebody that's running a DVC rental business.

I really don't disagree with any of this.

The comercial renters are a significant problem, in my opinion. And I think you're right, the limit of the transfers is a very positive move.

For DVC to start cancelling reservations however, would be an incredibly bad PR move for WDW. What the person would know and remember, incorrectly as it may be, is that Disney cancelled their reservation, not the member. Perception is reality, and WDW would pay in the way of bad PR.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

This new rule just seems so vague to me. What is a "pattern?" Renting once to a few renters? Renting over a long period of time? I don't see how Disney can enforce this rule if they don't define it better. If someone rents all of their points for a use year to a few different renters to pay for a Disney cruise, is that a pattern? Or is it just someone who is doing this every year?

Also, since DVC just posted this rule, I don't see how they can cancel any reservations that were made prior to the rule.

I have never rented my DVC points, and never plan to, but I would really like to better understand this rule. It just seems so vague.

For DVC to start cancelling reservations however, would be an incredibly bad PR move for WDW. What the person would know and remember, incorrectly as it may be, is that Disney cancelled their reservation, not the member. Perception is reality, and WDW would pay in the way of bad PR.[/QUOTE]

Not sure why that second quote didn't show as a quote...



I am not sure about this (bad PR move). It would probably only take a relative few cancellations before the word got out that you had better be real careful when renting in points. I don't think Disney would have much to lose by making some examples. As far as defining a pattern, Disney doesn't need or want to do this, because the pattern is not what defines right or wrong, it is simply the red flag that will get their attention. After that they will let their legal team advise them on whether take action. You have to believe they have talked this through a thousand times and in every scenario. There isn't going to be any class actions suits, they know what they are doing. As far as the right or wrong thing to do... well I've been watching a number of threads on this subject and initially I was confused and didn't have a strong opinion either way, but now I do. Disney is doing this because it is hurting their sales and it is hurting the benign DVC owner who is now having difficulty getting ressies in peak times. It is not a severe problem yet, but renting points has certainly taken on a life (and business) of it's own and has the potential of becoming a truly undermining aspect of and to DVC. I want to be able to rent points when I need to. I would even like to rent some points (an amount less than what I personally use) to offset costs. This is reasonable and I think Disney will embrace this type of renting. The (business) of buying and renting solely for that purpose alone is going to end, and I for one think it is the right thing for Disney to do. I believe Disney will get their red flags, evaluate the situation, and take action or maybe give a warning, or accept that particular situation as acceptible activity. This is not going to be a hard nosed action against the typical DVC owner.

 

[JimMIA]

Not sure why that second quote didn't show as a quote...

You deleted the opening tag.

It needs to have a bracket, quote, closed bracket at the start, and [/quote] at the end for the HTML tags to work. I've noticed that in a number of your posts. It happens easily when you delete part of a quote. You can catch it by previewing your posts before submitting them whenever you're quoting.

 

[DisDaydreamer]

You deleted the opening tag.

It needs to have a bracket, quote, closed bracket at the start, and

at the end for the HTML tags to work. I've noticed that in a number of your posts. It happens easily when you delete part of a quote. You can catch it by previewing your posts before submitting them whenever you're quoting.[/QUOTE]

Thanks... I'll try get my posting techniques in order

 

[Island_Lauri]

This new rule just seems so vague to me. What is a "pattern?" Renting once to a few renters? Renting over a long period of time? I don't see how Disney can enforce this rule if they don't define it better. If someone rents all of their points for a use year to a few different renters to pay for a Disney cruise, is that a pattern? Or is it just someone who is doing this every year?

Also, since DVC just posted this rule, I don't see how they can cancel any reservations that were made prior to the rule.

I have never rented my DVC points, and never plan to, but I would really like to better understand this rule. It just seems so vague.

Hmmm... http://www.dvcrequest.com would seem like a good example of a "pattern"

http://www.dvcrequest.com/guestbook/default.asp

Comments by Carole Widmer on Thursday, August 10, 2006 at 18:36 IP Logged
It was a pleasure to buy points through Dave. It was my first time buying points. Dave made the process simple and we had a lovely stress free vacation at a very nice Disney resort for a very nice price!
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Comments by Jack McCallion on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 at 11:29 IP Logged
Transfer worked out well. Thanks!
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Comments by David B on Monday, July 17, 2006 at 09:51 IP Logged
Transaction went very smooth. Dave is very aware of your concerns and addresses them. I was VERY nervous at first since I have never delt with nor knew Dave let alone I have never transfered points before, but he made me feel very comfortable. He seems to be genuine. Good luck Dave and thanks for the profesional service.
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Comments by Linda on Sunday, July 16, 2006 at 20:01 IP Logged
We rented points from David. It was very easy. David was very helpful, friendly and professional and we saved a considerable amount of money. Looking forward to our trip.
Thanks
Linda
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Comments by Kim on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 at 21:14 IP Logged
We rented points through David and it was a breeze. I was in a time crunch because I was going out of town and he was able to help me make our reservation within hours of my contacting him! His website is very informative and easy to navigate. This was easier than going through an online agent (where I waited for 48 hours only to get an e-mailed quote at the Disney full rack rate). Thanks David!
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Comments by Jim on Tuesday, June 20, 2006 at 15:35 IP Logged
I rented points to David, transaction went smooth, very professional. Would do again. Thanks David
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Comments by Scott on Friday, June 16, 2006 at 11:36 IP Logged
David was very helpful with all the questions I had and made the process of renting points very easy.
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Comments by S. Berry on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 at 16:35 IP Logged
David was great. I have rented from other DVC owners and no one has been as knowledgeable. I love the way he gets you on three way with Disney. Most want to get the information and email each other back and forth (sometimes losing the reservation). I will use David again in the future.
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Comments by Andrea Ragone on Thursday, June 08, 2006 at 17:16 IP Logged
Thank you so much. I found the website to be a wealth of knowledge and David was very polite and professional, answered all my questions before we called Disney. Very smooth process. Can't wait to go!!!
Thanks again!
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Comments by Michelle Gidewall on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 at 09:28 IP Logged
What a great site! David was very professional and easy to work with as well as helpful. He really knows his Disney! Thank you David.
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[PrincessJasmine08]

Hmmm... http://www.dvcrequest.com would seem like a good example of a "pattern"

http://www.dvcrequest.com/guestbook/default.asp

....

WOW! Unbelievable!

 

[rinkwide]

You guys have obviously never heard the old adage, "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

Listen close, you can almost hear it; The fence-sitting lurkers who've been thinking about renting are now feverishly typing inquiries to our buddy Dave.

 

[PrincessJasmine08]

You guys have obviously never heard the old adage, "There's no such thing as bad publicity."

Listen close, you can almost hear it; The fence-sitting lurkers who've been thinking about renting are now feverishly typing inquiries to our buddy Dave.

I can only hope we're not promoting our "buddy" Dave. But you're right, there's no such thing as bad publicity...

 

[keys2kingdom]

LOL *poof*!!!!!!

Nice catch mods!

 

[waltfan1957]

I predict that Disney's frustration will continue since they are powerless to raise point costs or maintenance fees proportionate to their ever-increasing rack rates. As a result, renting for profit is only going to become more popular.

I think this is what is Disney's real problem while their rack rates have continually risen people are still renting points at great rates for rentees who is going to rent a room from Disney when you can get a better rate from a
renter this is hitting their profits and they dont like it.

 

[keys2kingdom]

I think this is what is Disney's real problem while their rack rates have continually risen people are still renting points at great rates for rentees who is going to rent a room from Disney when you can get a better rate from a
renter this is hitting their profits and they dont like it.

Agreed, I think this is the bottom line.

 

[NMW]

The only one of the three you mentioned that I really care about stopping is the last one. I'm a BWV owner who prefers the standard view and Boardwalk view rooms and is willing to book day by day at the 11 month window to get them (if I have to). Until the 7 month window opens, I should only have to compete with real BWV points - not those that are magically transformed into BWV points or given a longer life via a transfer.

I don't care if someone rents a lot of points - as long as they aren't taking advantage of the system to get around the booking windows or extend the life of points beyond their legitimate expiration date.

Best wishes -

I agree!

 

[RobDoc]

Define "A pattern of rental activity for profit"

One problem with the internet is that while the concepts may be similar to the topic being discussed, the details have often been changed from the original.

In this case, the language in everyone's POS (and this language has never changed from October, 1991) and in the email recently sent out- never mentions "profit".

The actual quote from the POS is :

"Commercial Purpose" shall include a pattern of rental activity by a Cotenant that the Assocoiation, in it's reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

Profit is not part of the concern and DVC has made no mention of profit in any discussion of rental activity. They don't care what rate members seek or receive- it is the "Commercial Purpose" that is of concern. Those renting for $8 per point are viewed no differently than those renting for $18 per point as far as "Commercial Purpose". They're looking at a pattern of activity- not the rate or the rental itself.

 

[Beca]

Profit is not part of the concern and DVC has made no mention of profit in any discussion of rental activity. They don't care what rate members seek or receive- it is the "Commercial Purpose" that is of concern. Those renting for $8 per point are viewed no differently than those renting for $18 per point as far as "Commercial Purpose". They're looking at a pattern of activity- not the rate or the rental itself.

I posted this in another thread, but thought I should post it here as well. This is off of the dvc member website, under member publications:

Policies protect personal use and enjoyment
In a continuing effort to maximize Members' personal enjoyment of their Membership, Disney Vacation Club would like to remind Members about several related policies outlined in the Public Offering Statement and other Member documents.

As a reminder, published policies limit the use of accommodations and recreational facilities solely to the personal use and enjoyment of Owners, their lessees, Guests, exchangers and invitees and for recreational uses by corporations and other entities owning Ownership Interests in a Unit.

To maximize the availability of reservations for these permitted purposes, Disney Vacation Club closely monitors reservations and may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered.

Additionally, current policies limit Vacation Point-transfer transactions to one transfer per Member or Membership, either as transferee or transferor, during a given Use Year.

"We want to ensure that Members have the greatest opportunity to enjoy the magic of Membership," said Leigh Anne Nieman, Director of Business Standards and Regulatory Affairs for Disney Vacation Club. "With that in mind, we're committed to maximizing the availability of Ownership Interests and accommodations for Members' personal enjoyment, and we're committed to enforcing the policies that help us deliver on that commitment."

It has always been the policy of Disney Vacation Club that Membership is designed specifically to provide long-term personal enjoyment, and Members shouldn't purchase their Membership as an appreciable short-term investment.

 

[RobDoc]

Thanks for the quote, Beca. It will certainly be interesting to see how this is handled as time goes on.

 

[rinkwide]

...may cancel reserved accommodations if a pattern of rental activity for profit is discovered...

That claim is a misrepresentation of the POS and an unfortunate bullying tactic that will intimidate occasional renters not the commercial ones who know the truth - that DVD is powerless to stop them.

I'm starting to think Disney really isn't cut out for the timeshare business.