DD is left out in 3-kid friendship - advice please

[QueenIsabella]

So, I completely agree with you on what you are saying, but I think we are talking about two different things.

Kids who have social problems or a lower social IQ should absolutely NOT be judged and excluded based on things that have happened in the past.

What this thread is about, and what I am talking about, is the kids who are DOING the excluding and being mean for the purpose of making kids do what they want them to do, or to gain/retain social power over a group of kids. Since this mostly happens with girls (although boys can certainly have their moments, too) this is otherwise knows as the "Mean Girl" syndrome. These are the kids who are usually the brightest and best, the prettiest and/or most athletic, etc and have the gaggle of friends surrounding them whenever they move. The ones who on the surface seem to be the perfect kid who teachers and parents and principals and coaches and everyone else loves and adores, but as every kid in the class knows, is the one you need to fall all over yourself for or else she will make everyone hate you.

Not to judge you as a teacher - I'm sure you are amazing - but I will honestly say that I have rarely met a teacher who truly understands this social hiearchy, and more often, teachers try to deny that it even exists in their classroom.

But ask any 12 year old girl...heck, any 8 year old girl, and 95% of them will tell you that it does indeed very strongly exist. The other 5% usually largely consists of a pool of the Queen Bee mean girls - they don't see any problems whatsoever.

And if we are going to continue this conversation, and I would love to, I am going to respectfully ask you to stop picking my sentences apart and piecing them back together in order to come up with parts and peices of a quote that fits your point. You even went as far as to put a period in the middle of one of my sentences as though it was the end of my sentence, which it was not, AND you removed words that I did say in order to make it seem like I was saying something else. In the above, you have only quoted what you wanted to, which takes my thoughts out of context and skews the words to what you wish they mean so it fits your argument better. And no, your colleagues do NOT agree with me, because I never said what you are pretending to quote. Let's play fair here. And I would still like you to answer my question above. Thanks.

I could have written this a million times about every girl-relationship dynamic I've ever seen. And I studied this (and bullying, by extension) in college for my psychology degree. There is ONE solution here.

Start gently guiding your DD toward different friends. They are 7-ish right now, it's only going to get worse, especially if Friend A's mom is more concerned about her DD's popularity than your DD's feelings. She will never be on board and you will have even more problems with her as the girls get older.

I have an 11 year old DD, 6th grade, and are entering the throes of the Mean Girl stage. My DD has been friends with/in class with the same kids since 1st grade, I've been the coach of several of them, and a Girl Scout leader for part of the time as well. You can tell pretty early on who is going to end up being the mean girls, the sporty girls, the smart girls, the nice girls, etc, believe it or not. There are always the floaters who pretty much fit in anywhere, but by middle school they usually end up finding a group.

Anyway, I always thought that the "mean girls" in DD's grade were relatively nice for mean girls. The Queen Bee is smart, funny, nice, and wins pretty much everything she tries for, whether she is good at it or not. She has always been nice to my DD, and they were friends when they were little, but I started to see who she was hanging around with and how their mom's were (her mom included), and I realized that once these girls got older, I could foresee a lot of drama, bad decisions, and no support from the moms who already thought their DD's were perfect.

So, being a coach and GS Leader and knowing so many girls/moms personally, I started to (covertly) guide DD toward a different group of girls - these are the girls who are well-behaved, smart, sweet, and respect each other's opinions and ideas, but are also fun to be around. I would encourage her to invite these girls over to play, or invite them to go to the park with us during DS's baseball games, or to the mall, etc. She was still friends with the mean girls, but stopped doing so much with them after school. Pretty soon, she made the choice herself that her new friends were MUCH nicer to her, and she wasn't so stressed out all the time about being around them. She could just be herself. She is still friendly toward all of the mean girls, but she is never involved in their drama and won't get in trouble with them as they all get older.

And I am soooo glad! I am friends with a lot of the mean girls' moms (one in particular, we work closely as directors/coaches for a local team) and apparently, there was a incident a few weeks ago at a sleepover that involved a "top 10 Reasons Why We All Hate You" text that went out to one of the girls who was in their group, but someone decided they didn't like her anymore. It all blew up and all of the girls ended up in the principals office and their moms were all brought in. The Queen Bee that I mentioned before was at the sleepover and involved, but denied it and her mother actually told my friend that she "mom-failed" by even asking her DD about it because her DD started to cry and said she cannot believe her mom would think she would do something like that. Her mother ended up apologizing to HER! But all of the girls there said that Ms. Queen Bee was the one who suggested the list in the first place.

Ugg....so glad I foresaw this when DD was in 2nd/3rd grade and started to encourage her to make new friendships, or she likely would have been involved in all of that mess, too.

And, FWIW, DD invited two of her friends to a play last night that another friend of theirs was starring in, then the girls came back to our house for a sleepover. 3 girls + NO problems at all. So it can happen with the right combinations.

"Queen Bees and Wannabes" by Rosalin Wiseman, should be a must read for any mom of a girl, in my opinion. And "Queen Bee Moms and Kingpin Dads" by the same author is equally helpful. I highly suggest getting your hands on a copy of both books.

Good luck to us all. Haha

So, I completely agree with you on what you are saying, but I think we are talking about two different things.

Kids who have social problems or a lower social IQ should absolutely NOT be judged and excluded based on things that have happened in the past.

What this thread is about, and what I am talking about, is the kids who are DOING the excluding and being mean for the purpose of making kids do what they want them to do, or to gain/retain social power over a group of kids. Since this mostly happens with girls (although boys can certainly have their moments, too) this is otherwise knows as the "Mean Girl" syndrome. These are the kids who are usually the brightest and best, the prettiest and/or most athletic, etc and have the gaggle of friends surrounding them whenever they move. The ones who on the surface seem to be the perfect kid who teachers and parents and principals and coaches and everyone else loves and adores, but as every kid in the class knows, is the one you need to fall all over yourself for or else she will make everyone hate you.

Not to judge you as a teacher - I'm sure you are amazing - but I will honestly say that I have rarely met a teacher who truly understands this social hiearchy, and more often, teachers try to deny that it even exists in their classroom.

But ask any 12 year old girl...heck, any 8 year old girl, and 95% of them will tell you that it does indeed very strongly exist. The other 5% usually largely consists of a pool of the Queen Bee mean girls - they don't see any problems whatsoever.

And if we are going to continue this conversation, and I would love to, I am going to respectfully ask you to stop picking my sentences apart and piecing them back together in order to come up with parts and peices of a quote that fits your point. You even went as far as to put a period in the middle of one of my sentences as though it was the end of my sentence, which it was not, AND you removed words that I did say in order to make it seem like I was saying something else. In the above, you have only quoted what you wanted to, which takes my thoughts out of context and skews the words to what you wish they mean so it fits your argument better. And no, your colleagues do NOT agree with me, because I never said what you are pretending to quote. Let's play fair here. And I would still like you to answer my question above. Thanks.

You might want to go back and read what you wrote. I bolded it, above, where you were clearly saying that you were defining girls with different labels. You may not have meant it in hard and fast kind of way, but still, it's what you said. I quoted both of your posts in their entirety, so you wouldn't accuse me of misquoting you.

As to the OP, I would encourage your DD to expand her circle of friends. I have to wonder, based on your description, if it's more about the moms' friendship than the girls'. Based on the other mom's reaction, she's either not seeing what you're seeing, or she doesn't care. Either way, these girls need to spend less time together.

 

[leebee]

Somewhat ... I teach in a K-8 public school, and I see the social hierarchy and "mean girl" actions every day. I find it hard to believe, but I see it in 3rd graders already. I am wondering, though: How did this all start? Why are children so willing to sink to meanness as a way of being? I will admit to being old- I graduated from high school in 1974- but I don't remember seeing this level of meanness in school, not even high school. Perhaps I was completely oblivious, but I was pretty much on the fringes of the social scene at school; no best friend, no group of friends or girls I could call for a sleepover or who'd invite me to their party, etc. We had a group of girls in the neighborhood (5 or 6 families, each with 2 girls, all of us within 4 years of each other, age-wise) and we "ran in a pack" when we were younger, but that dissipated as each girl hit Junior High (7th grade, new school/schedule, etc.). I was pretty much ripe for "mean girl" attention, but it wasn't really there, and certainly not to the extent we see now, nor at such early ages. (And with 3000 kids in my 3-year high school, there were plenty of kids to play all "roles" that we see in kids these days!) I also am amazed at the bullying that happens. We had bullies, but these days it all seems so much more personal, insidious, and vicious.

So... why do we see these kinds of really mean behaviors? Why are they happening with increasing frequency, at younger and younger ages? Is it because parents accept it? Is it due to helicopter parenting, so kids don't learn how to handle themselves in a hierarchy (including how to recognize/avoid/get out of one)- or by themselves? These are just random thoughts, but I'm curious as to how we've let our children develop this type of social system, and why it seems to be increasing rather than being shut down.

 

[mjkacmom]

Somewhat ... I teach in a K-8 public school, and I see the social hierarchy and "mean girl" actions every day. I find it hard to believe, but I see it in 3rd graders already. I am wondering, though: How did this all start? Why are children so willing to sink to meanness as a way of being? I will admit to being old- I graduated from high school in 1974- but I don't remember seeing this level of meanness in school, not even high school. Perhaps I was completely oblivious, but I was pretty much on the fringes of the social scene at school; no best friend, no group of friends or girls I could call for a sleepover or who'd invite me to their party, etc. We had a group of girls in the neighborhood (5 or 6 families, each with 2 girls, all of us within 4 years of each other, age-wise) and we "ran in a pack" when we were younger, but that dissipated as each girl hit Junior High (7th grade, new school/schedule, etc.). I was pretty much ripe for "mean girl" attention, but it wasn't really there, and certainly not to the extent we see now, nor at such early ages. (And with 3000 kids in my 3-year high school, there were plenty of kids to play all "roles" that we see in kids these days!) I also am amazed at the bullying that happens. We had bullies, but these days it all seems so much more personal, insidious, and vicious.

So... why do we see these kinds of really mean behaviors? Why are they happening with increasing frequency, at younger and younger ages? Is it because parents accept it? Is it due to helicopter parenting, so kids don't learn how to handle themselves in a hierarchy (including how to recognize/avoid/get out of one)- or by themselves? These are just random thoughts, but I'm curious as to how we've let our children develop this type of social system, and why it seems to be increasing rather than being shut down.

I graduated in the 80's, and it's was prevalent back then. Maybe because you weren't in a group, you were spared? I remember being on both ends of it. Fortunately, by the time I got to HS, I was in a nice solid group. I still consider the 6 or so bff's from high school, and college, some of my closest, precious friends, even though we rarely see each other. I think social media puts it out here more, but it's always existed, human nature. As parents, our job is to help our kids deal with it, and not try to fix it ourselves.

 

[Christine]

Somewhat ... I teach in a K-8 public school, and I see the social hierarchy and "mean girl" actions every day. I find it hard to believe, but I see it in 3rd graders already. I am wondering, though: How did this all start? Why are children so willing to sink to meanness as a way of being? I will admit to being old- I graduated from high school in 1974- but I don't remember seeing this level of meanness in school, not even high school. Perhaps I was completely oblivious, but I was pretty much on the fringes of the social scene at school; no best friend, no group of friends or girls I could call for a sleepover or who'd invite me to their party, etc. We had a group of girls in the neighborhood (5 or 6 families, each with 2 girls, all of us within 4 years of each other, age-wise) and we "ran in a pack" when we were younger, but that dissipated as each girl hit Junior High (7th grade, new school/schedule, etc.). I was pretty much ripe for "mean girl" attention, but it wasn't really there, and certainly not to the extent we see now, nor at such early ages. (And with 3000 kids in my 3-year high school, there were plenty of kids to play all "roles" that we see in kids these days!) I also am amazed at the bullying that happens. We had bullies, but these days it all seems so much more personal, insidious, and vicious.

So... why do we see these kinds of really mean behaviors? Why are they happening with increasing frequency, at younger and younger ages? Is it because parents accept it? Is it due to helicopter parenting, so kids don't learn how to handle themselves in a hierarchy (including how to recognize/avoid/get out of one)- or by themselves? These are just random thoughts, but I'm curious as to how we've let our children develop this type of social system, and why it seems to be increasing rather than being shut down.

I saw some of it way back (and I was in school in the 60s and 70s).

I think part of it is just human nature. Girl A in this post is a "social climber." She will do anything to climb up the ranks in popularity. She is probably nice enough and secure enough in one-on-one situations with the OPs daughter (who is probably NOT a climber), but the minute someone Girl A views as being above her socially, she's going to do everything she can to endear herself with the next girl. She probably doesn't even realize she does it. I don't think parents outright teach that behavior but it more stems from a very strong internal need to be viewed as popular or strong. Some people have that need and some don't. I never did require it but I certainly had those in my life who did require it.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

The common denominator seems to be Girl A, who honestly doesn't seem to like your daughter all that much. Is the fact that you and the mom became close friends influencing the playdates? Because it sounds like the friendship is being forced on the girls at this point, Girl A doesn't seem to want to hang around your daughter (for whatever reason) and your daughter thinks Girl A is mean and leaves her in tears. Maybe they just don't mesh...time to branch out.

Yea, it pretty much sounds like this.

 

[dazedx3]

This is very interesting to me, I work with very young children. My co-teachers and I see this starting at about the time children begin crawling. We have observed that it can have a lot to do with size and dexterity, but unfortunately, parents can also play a role. It would be interesting to observe these same children when they are older,to see if it continues.

Right now we have a almost 2 year old girl who is picked on all the time. She is very small and weak, and even the much younger children will pick on her. It is very sad, she will not defend herself and I wonder how she will fare in the future.

 

[Wishing on a star]

If you went to the amusement park with just the two girls, then three was not a crowd. You planned a day out with another child. It was extremely rude of Girl A to run off with new friend and leave your daughter in the dust.

That type of girl carries on to college years. She calls you to go out a party. You get all ready, head to party as a duo, and she sees another friend and hangs out with her all night while you stand alone. Doesn't look your way once. Rude.

But it looks like Girl A's mom just doesn't care. She thinks this behavior is ok. I wouldn't spend another day with Girl A or her clueless mother. Time to find some new friends!

I so agree with this.
Sometimes when it walks like duck, quacks like a duck...
Yes, sometimes we do have to identify personalities and use words to describe them.
That is just not 'labeling'.

And, yes, I have, personally, seen and heard first-hand accounts of teachers labeling, and very much MIS-labeling kids.
That is a whole different animal.
And, yes, it happens.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I am also surprised at the 'starts as early as third grade' (or whenever) comment(s).
I agree that these behaviors are aspect of human nature that can begin as a child has physical autonomy and dexterity.
One of the absolute worst Queen Bee, Mean Girls, that I have ever witnessed was 3, yes THREE, years of age.
It was amazing to watch.
And, just to note, yes, her mother was just like the mothers of mean-girls who have been described.
The apple does not often fall far from the tree. And this girl's mother would stand to the sidelines and, I am quite sure, be very smug when watching her child in action.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Interesting thread! (Even though my blood pressure began rising just reading it!) I'm not sure there are any "right" or "wrong" answers here, it's just each person's interpretation! And it's really hard to know exactly what type of influence mothers have unless we have an in-depth analysis of their behavior, too - lol! It's interesting to see that some people say, "Let the kids work it out" and others feel the kids should be "directed". We can see how personalities of the individuals involved help shape this in so many ways. (And again, neither right, nor wrong, just different.)

My DD18 is just ending her high school days so it's interesting to look back. In first grade, there were only six girls in her class, but the girl who DD considered her "best friend" didn't invite DD to her bday party even though everyone else was invited (and even though DD had held her hair up while she vomited in school that day, and helped her to the bathroom to clean up, etc.). It was one of the first "hurts" she experienced by other girls. (And I'll never forget the night she told me the story, saying first, she hoped her friend was ok because she'd been sick that day, then softly crying, wondering why she wasn't invited to the party.) I'd asked the teacher about it because the school had a "policy" in place that if one student got invited, all were supposed to be invited, for one thing, so I was surprised it had happened, but I also wanted to know if she had any insight into it. Her response was that she'd noticed it but had no understanding as to why; that she'd thought it was "weird" too. My own feeling was that it was because I was in cancer treatment at the time, and somehow that made the mom uncomfortable, because there really seemed to be no other reason neither I nor DD nor the teacher could figure out. I didn't know the mom at all so I let it go. We moved on. DD at the time was playing sports and had a variety of friends who were both boys and girls, as she has a twin brother so it was natural to hang out with boys sometimes, too.

Fast forward to third grade. DD was in the schoolyard one day and was over with her brother with the boys for a while. When she came back to the girl group, one girl (might fit the category here of "queen bee" type), told DD in front of everyone she was "weird" because she liked boys (exact words, and ironic, too, since this girl went on to let's just say, have a lot of boyfriends), then slapped her across the face! I learned about this after school on a Friday afternoon before a school vacation week, but talked to the teacher, who investigated. Turns out, a schoolyard monitor had witnessed the interaction, and yes, the slapping, but other girl said she'd done it by "accident". (And yes, I pursued it.) Needless to say, this left DD, who is pretty quiet and shy, somewhat devastated (and afraid, and confused, and a lot of other emotions that are hard to capture here). She still hung out with some of the girls who were more like herself. In middle school and high school, she met a lot of new girls and developed some new friendships, but many of them seemed to already have a "best friend" and some of these "best friends" did some pretty hurtful things to DD to keep her at arm's length from their friends. One actually used to send pictures to DD every time she was alone with their mutual friend, always of them laughing and having fun and on amusement rides, etc. DD told her friend she found it hurtful to get these pictures, which were obviously meant to taunt her, but her friend seemed to be enjoying the attention from both sides and never took a stand with her friend. DD eventually ended the friendship after a particularly brutal weekend of "pictures".

Another issue that I think was difficult was the "cafeteria" issue of having a finite number of seats at a table, and this was the case for both boys and girls. Saving of seats, and excuding others caused lots of hurts on a daily basis, with lots of kids. (I know when I was growing up, both schools I attended had really long tables so that exclusion really wasn't an issue in the cafeteria, but it is if there are only 8 seats at a table. I think designers of schools should consider this more.) And lastly, "partnering" is really difficult for many kids. It is cutthroat! In looking around the college campus of the school DD eventually chose, one of the things that she liked about it was seeing women comfortable eating alone, or sitting/walking alone, without clinging to eachother, which is one of the things that drover her crazy in HS. There are literally girls who cannot even walk to the trash can to throw their trash away without having another girl go with them. Or to the bathroom. Or anywhere, really. DD is pretty comfortable with doing her own thing and doesn't need anyone as a crutch, so she's tended to form friendships with older people over the past few years to get away from this type of behavior. She's got mixed emotions leaving high school. On the one hand, she's sentimental, but on the other, she's anxious to move on.

 

[ilovefh]

I get it. It hurts to see your child picked on or excluded. My son goes through this with his friends and they are 4 and 5. Two of his friends are twins. Plus, my son is a year younger than them and is delayed so he is even younger acting.

They exclude him occasionally and say things like he is too little to play whatever game they are playing, which normally isn't true.

What I don't understand in your post is it sounds like neither you or the other mom are ever stepping in and saying anything. Why don't either of you ever step in and say anything?

In our group there are 3 moms and 4 boys, three are 5 and DS is 4. Whenever any of them exclude any other kid one of us always steps in and corrects them, no matter who is doing the excluding. We're all comfortable enough with each other that we don't get offended or upset when one of the other moms corrects our child.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Somewhat ... I teach in a K-8 public school, and I see the social hierarchy and "mean girl" actions every day. I find it hard to believe, but I see it in 3rd graders already. I am wondering, though: How did this all start? Why are children so willing to sink to meanness as a way of being? I will admit to being old- I graduated from high school in 1974- but I don't remember seeing this level of meanness in school, not even high school. Perhaps I was completely oblivious, but I was pretty much on the fringes of the social scene at school; no best friend, no group of friends or girls I could call for a sleepover or who'd invite me to their party, etc. We had a group of girls in the neighborhood (5 or 6 families, each with 2 girls, all of us within 4 years of each other, age-wise) and we "ran in a pack" when we were younger, but that dissipated as each girl hit Junior High (7th grade, new school/schedule, etc.). I was pretty much ripe for "mean girl" attention, but it wasn't really there, and certainly not to the extent we see now, nor at such early ages. (And with 3000 kids in my 3-year high school, there were plenty of kids to play all "roles" that we see in kids these days!) I also am amazed at the bullying that happens. We had bullies, but these days it all seems so much more personal, insidious, and vicious.

So... why do we see these kinds of really mean behaviors? Why are they happening with increasing frequency, at younger and younger ages? Is it because parents accept it? Is it due to helicopter parenting, so kids don't learn how to handle themselves in a hierarchy (including how to recognize/avoid/get out of one)- or by themselves? These are just random thoughts, but I'm curious as to how we've let our children develop this type of social system, and why it seems to be increasing rather than being shut down.

Just to respond to this. Why I think it's increasing, is in part due to social media, IMO. There's this whole thing going on that girls, especially, are comparing themselves and their lives to others whom they see on Instagram, Snapchat, etc. What people don't always realize is that people tend to post only the "best" of themselves, not pictures of themselves on the weekends they're sitting home doing nothing. "Facebook depression" is an issue for adults, too, not just kids. I think as parents we need to help kids tone down their connections to their phones and help them see that their lives aren't any better or worse than anyone else's based on what they see online, and to go out and live their lives doing a variety of things that make them happy, not just what everyone else seems to be doing. I mean, that was always the case, wasn't it? It just seems so pronounced now because everything from everyone is right in our faces 24/7.

 

[Pixie Dust ✨]

Just to respond to this. Why I think it's increasing, is in part due to social media, IMO. There's this whole thing going on that girls, especially, are comparing themselves and their lives to others whom they see on Instagram, Snapchat, etc. What people don't always realize is that people tend to post only the "best" of themselves, not pictures of themselves on the weekends they're sitting home doing nothing. "Facebook depression" is an issue for adults, too, not just kids. I think as parents we need to help kids tone down their connections to their phones and help them see that their lives aren't any better or worse than anyone else's based on what they see online, and to go out and live their lives doing a variety of things that make them happy, not just what everyone else seems to be doing. I mean, that was always the case, wasn't it? It just seems so pronounced now because everything from everyone is right in our faces 24/7.

The social media impact has been studied and, interestingly, the envy & sadness seems to be more prevalent when looking at photos/updates from people you don't know. I think this is because, when you're close to someone, you know them as a person both offline & online and are able to see the whole picture, whereas all you're seeing from a stranger is "the best of the best." Keeping kids away from social media entirely puts them at a HUGE disadvantage, but I would encourage them to friend/follow only those they know personally to prevent some of these negative feelings from cropping up too early. It's hard enough for adults.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

The social media impact has been studied and, interestingly, the envy & sadness seems to be more prevalent when looking at photos/updates from people you don't know. I think this is because, when you're close to someone, you know them as a person both offline & online and are able to see the whole picture, whereas all you're seeing from a stranger is "the best of the best." Keeping kids away from social media entirely puts them at a HUGE disadvantage, but I would encourage them to friend/follow only those they know personally to prevent some of these negative feelings from cropping up too early. It's hard enough for adults.

I think there is a lot still evolving when it comes to learning the impact social media now has on our lives. And in fairness, I was attempting to respond to leebee's question of what has changed. I also never advocated keeping kids away from social media entirely - I simply suggested toning it down, meaning encouraging kids to limit their time on it and balance it with other, offline interests.

 

[cabanafrau]

There's been a lot of good insight given here and I have to say I agree that OP should stay out of it as far as the other kids and moms are concerned and attempt to open the drapes for her DD to reveal other windows of friendship options out there. Hang in there OP, it does get better, but not without an awful lot of nasty bumps and bruises along the way. Eventually you may get to the point where you're able to watch some of the mean girls, and their moms, get their just desserts.

My older DD went through a similar issue with a purported close friend in about first grade. I had a legit front row seat to much of what was going on because I was frequently serving as chauffeur when this particularly nasty princess was doing her dirty work right in front of me. I shut it down in the car and on my watch, but there was no stopping her. I tried having a couple gentle talks with her mom, but she absolutely could not entertain the idea her child was less than perfect in any way whatsoever, including a meltdown when her "perfect child" received information she might need glasses. (Crisis averted, she did not.) I wound up cutting the cord by refusing to shuttle her princess around town and pushing my DD into other directions.

It was bumpy for a while because for reasons completely unknown to me most everyone, child and adults alike, accepted this mother and daughter's word she was the best princess ever and she managed to have plenty of kids pull into her orbit and a supply of parents ready to chauffeur and volunteer for other favors. Finally other friends showed up in DD's line of vision who either were deemed unworthy by the princess, had been burned by the princess -- and magically a few finally appeared who were immune to her "charms". Over the course of elementary, middle and high school years the princess eventually settled to her own depth, and it ended up being with a rather small, nasty group with a tendency for lots of infighting, not belonging to any teams or groups and not doing particularly well academically. Over the years you could see the mom's confusion if I happened to run into her somewhere finally give way to grim acceptance that was her reality.

My younger DD is graduating HS this year and has been a little bruised by the actions of someone who has been her friend since middle school. Over the past two years there have been some smaller indications something is amiss, but DD has been brushing them aside and minimizing, not suspecting her friend would be so underhanded. A term working together on the school newspaper wound up revealing very unexpectedly the true nature of her "friend", information which has been even more unexpectedly spotlighted in unintentional ways that have several chickens coming home to roost at a really unfortunate time for this girl. Ironically some of it has resulted in some goodwill and good fortune for my DD when events played out in a domino effect a screenwriter couldn't have convincingly sold to an audience.

After raising two daughters I've been around a lot of this stuff and I'm firmly convinced that the best thing is to stay out of as much as you reasonably can, continue to give your kids the best messages and the best guidance and they will find their path. I've also learned to hang well to the back of the crowd and observe as much as possible, oftentimes most particularly the kids who seem to be fairly well liked and the adult authority figures adore -- but yet you know your kid and maybe even a friend or two of theirs just can't stand. Yeah, it could be petty jealousy, but quite often if I watched carefully enough without the kid being aware I was doing so, I started to notice exactly how they were manipulating the other adults and that in fact several other kids who seemed to be part of their group in fact looked like they are really going along to get along, because they fear being ostracized.

Give your kid the best guidance you can to be the best person they can be, because in the end it's their own smarts, kindness and other good traits that will enable them to move through life ready to take on anything.

 

[Hibiscus]

There's been a lot of good insight given here and I have to say I agree that OP should stay out of it as far as the other kids and moms are concerned and attempt to open the drapes for her DD to reveal other windows of friendship options out there. Hang in there OP, it does get better, but not without an awful lot of nasty bumps and bruises along the way. Eventually you may get to the point where you're able to watch some of the mean girls, and their moms, get their just desserts.

My older DD went through a similar issue with a purported close friend in about first grade. I had a legit front row seat to much of what was going on because I was frequently serving as chauffeur when this particularly nasty princess was doing her dirty work right in front of me. I shut it down in the car and on my watch, but there was no stopping her. I tried having a couple gentle talks with her mom, but she absolutely could not entertain the idea her child was less than perfect in any way whatsoever, including a meltdown when her "perfect child" received information she might need glasses. (Crisis averted, she did not.) I wound up cutting the cord by refusing to shuttle her princess around town and pushing my DD into other directions.

It was bumpy for a while because for reasons completely unknown to me most everyone, child and adults alike, accepted this mother and daughter's word she was the best princess ever and she managed to have plenty of kids pull into her orbit and a supply of parents ready to chauffeur and volunteer for other favors. Finally other friends showed up in DD's line of vision who either were deemed unworthy by the princess, had been burned by the princess -- and magically a few finally appeared who were immune to her "charms". Over the course of elementary, middle and high school years the princess eventually settled to her own depth, and it ended up being with a rather small, nasty group with a tendency for lots of infighting, not belonging to any teams or groups and not doing particularly well academically. Over the years you could see the mom's confusion if I happened to run into her somewhere finally give way to grim acceptance that was her reality.

My younger DD is graduating HS this year and has been a little bruised by the actions of someone who has been her friend since middle school. Over the past two years there have been some smaller indications something is amiss, but DD has been brushing them aside and minimizing, not suspecting her friend would be so underhanded. A term working together on the school newspaper wound up revealing very unexpectedly the true nature of her "friend", information which has been even more unexpectedly spotlighted in unintentional ways that have several chickens coming home to roost at a really unfortunate time for this girl. Ironically some of it has resulted in some goodwill and good fortune for my DD when events played out in a domino effect a screenwriter couldn't have convincingly sold to an audience.

After raising two daughters I've been around a lot of this stuff and I'm firmly convinced that the best thing is to stay out of as much as you reasonably can, continue to give your kids the best messages and the best guidance and they will find their path. I've also learned to hang well to the back of the crowd and observe as much as possible, oftentimes most particularly the kids who seem to be fairly well liked and the adult authority figures adore -- but yet you know your kid and maybe even a friend or two of theirs just can't stand. Yeah, it could be petty jealousy, but quite often if I watched carefully enough without the kid being aware I was doing so, I started to notice exactly how they were manipulating the other adults and that in fact several other kids who seemed to be part of their group in fact looked like they are really going along to get along, because they fear being ostracized.

Give your kid the best guidance you can to be the best person they can be, because in the end it's their own smarts, kindness and other good traits that will enable them to move through life ready to take on anything.

Good lord, this is a lot of intricate involvement in (and thinly veiled glee at the downfall of, in some cases) the social lives of children.

 

[Pixie Dust ✨]

I think there is a lot still evolving when it comes to learning the impact social media now has on our lives. And in fairness, I was attempting to respond to leebee's question of what has changed. I also never advocated keeping kids away from social media entirely - I simply suggested toning it down, meaning encouraging kids to limit their time on it and balance it with other, offline interests.

I do agree with you. Consider that post "thinking out loud."

 

[cabanafrau]

Good lord, this is a lot of intricate involvement in (and thinly veiled glee at the downfall of, in some cases) the social lives of children.

Yep, I was obviously tremendously involved. Suppose I should have bailed out of the car immediately in the instance with my older DD, never said a word to the kid when it was happening, never said a word to the mom and I should have run in the opposite direction whenever I've run across this woman or her DD at any school events or heaven forbid in the grocery store. I'll tell my younger DD to zip it whenever she wants to tell me what's going on in her world, because clearly I'm overstepping by being a sounding board there.

As for being gleeful about the downfall of children? Yes, I cackle with glee when cherubic six year olds with curls stub their toes. I absolutely live for that stuff and that was absolutely the point I was trying to make.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I agree with a lot of what Cabanafrau has said. And, I don't see being being a parent/chauffer as being overly involved.
My son, even now that he is grown, is close to two kids who have very over-involved and controliing parents. I know what that looks like, and how devastating the underlying affects can be!

Anyhow, as the mother of a son, I will say that this does also occur with boys. Even though it is MUCH more prevalent in girl's behaviors.
I have told this story before, about the kid, who was younger and smaller than my son, who was the male equivalent of a mean-girl. I observed him, as was described, from the back and sidelines for many months. That changed, and I did become involved, when I observed this kid, from way across the large meeting room, jump my son from behind, take him down the concrete floor, and sit on top of him, giving him forceful 'noogies'.

I walked over there as fast as my little vertically challenged legs would carry me, and said, with that very serious demanding 'MOM" voice... "GET off him..."

Yes, this kid's mother, just like the three year old's mother that I just mentioned, were exactly as others have described.
Their kids were snowflakes.
And in this one case, the kid's mother believed this little genius of a master-manipulater when he ran to her and acted all upset and wide-eyed, proclaiming that 'I' was the one bullying him. Yep, that's how it goes!!!

 

[Lilacs4Me]

You might want to go back and read what you wrote. I bolded it, above, where you were clearly saying that you were defining girls with different labels. You may not have meant it in hard and fast kind of way, but still, it's what you said. I quoted both of your posts in their entirety, so you wouldn't accuse me of misquoting you.

As to the OP, I would encourage your DD to expand her circle of friends. I have to wonder, based on your description, if it's more about the moms' friendship than the girls'. Based on the other mom's reaction, she's either not seeing what you're seeing, or she doesn't care. Either way, these girls need to spend less time together.

Bottom line is, we can sit here all day and nitpick one sentence of one post when taken as a stand-alone concept (which it wasn't), but the truth is, everything I said was accurate to what I have always observed and witnessed and I stand by it all. And we both gave the same advice to the OP, so there you go.

ETA: Also, you "forgot" to include my first reponse to the PP. Here is is, so you have the *correct* version....

FROM PP:
I don't think it's a good idea to put kids in a box based on one aspect of their personality. No one is always nice or always mean. As a teacher and a GS leader myself I've seen "nice" kids say or do mean things and I've seen "bullies" show kindness and consideration for others. When people label children as mean or nice and that's that then what opportunity do they have to grow as a person?

MY RESPONSE:
Agreed.

Nobody was walking around telling the girls this or drawing a box on the floor and telling them where they belong. LOL so let's not get all crazy here pretending that I said I was labeling these kids based on one aspect of their personality. My post was already long enough, these titles were much easier to type out than "the girl who was sometimes nice, but sometimes mean around one girl, but when her mom was there she was sweet as pie to girl A, but snotty to girl B". Right?!

But I challenge you to sit and observe ANY group of girls from Kindergarten -5th grade for a decent length of time and come back and tell me that you cannot see kids who "fits" a particular type - they don't have to STAY that type, but I, at least, can definitely see certain tendancies to act a certain way in certain kids. I have found that most people do not like to be blunt or direct when it comes to this subject, but if we are not, we cannot help our kids efficiently, IMO. Fact is, there is a pretty structured social hiearchy that develops at a fairly young age, and we can either see it for what it is, or pretend it doesn't exist because we don't want to "label" kids, and then wonder why our girls are miserably staying in relationships with friends that may not be good friends.

Since you are a teacher, I have a question for you. As a coach, there is no "Star" on my team. Everyone is equal and gets an equal chance to be special, have a leadership role, be in front, etc. We don't play social hiearchy. I've almost never seen this develop in a classroom. There has ALWAYS been a social hiearchy in any class I've observed. You are a teacher - do you have any ideas why this is so hard to squash?

 

[Lilacs4Me]

This is very interesting to me, I work with very young children. My co-teachers and I see this starting at about the time children begin crawling. We have observed that it can have a lot to do with size and dexterity, but unfortunately, parents can also play a role. It would be interesting to observe these same children when they are older,to see if it continues.

Right now we have a almost 2 year old girl who is picked on all the time. She is very small and weak, and even the much younger children will pick on her. It is very sad, she will not defend herself and I wonder how she will fare in the future.

I agree. I used to teach preschool and saw the social hiearchy develop in classrooms of 2-4 year olds. Whether it was who gets to sit where on the carpet, or who is allowed in the playhouse or on what swing at one time, there was definitely a mini-mean girls attitude. At that age, as a teacher you are able to redirect and enforce the rules and not have "repercussions" from the girls, but you could already see what was forming. And, at the risk of "labeling" kids again (I'll make sure I don't use 1-word adjectives this time! LOL) I still know many of these kids today and the social hierarchy and certain 1-word personality traits have held pretty true to what it was at age 4, 6, 8, 11. These kids are Juniors and Sophomores in high school currently. My son, who was in my classes in preschool, is still friends with a lot of them even though we moved when DS was in 5th grade, and I am friends/facebook friends with most of their parents. Since it is a small town, it's pretty easy to see who is friends with whom and whose personalities are still similar to what they were back in preschool.

And, for those who are afraid of labels, this was not ME labeling anyone....I haven't held influence over these children in 11-12 years and they still grew up to be pretty much like they were in preschool. So, NOT my fault!!! LOL