DD is left out in 3-kid friendship - advice please

[aaarcher86]

I'd get close enough to the playing to hear what's being said make sure it's not your daughter trying to exclude the third girl to protect her friendship with A.

If after observing you've determined that A is bring mean, then I would just avoid them. Who wants to be friends with a mean person? And nobody has time for that drama!

That's a good point.

My oldest will frequently tell me kids are mean, but in reality they just want to play something different.

 

[Snap Crackle Pop]

I think now is around the time that your DD should be making friends on her own and kind of planning her own kind of playdates, I don't remember having playdates planned much past Kindergarten, at least set up wise. My mom would make suggestions that we could do for fun, like if my Mom wanted to go to the movies with me she would ask if I wanted to bring or invite a friend and I would call and ask.
I honestly would see how they interact or get close enough to them to see if your daughter is maybe trying to exclude one of them? (I mean I know you say that your daughter is the one that is telling you they are being mean to her, but I had a friend similar to your daughter and she wouldn't want her newer friend to befriend me because she was afraid we would like each other more and ignore her.. which was never the case.)
However if the case is that Girl A & B are excluding her (i've had that happen to me too, but I was oblivious to it for awhile because I so desperately wanted to be friends with them) I would explain to your DD that she shouldn't be friends with people who treat her poorly and encourage her to find other friends. Or maybe you could encourage her to talk to Girl A and explain that her feelings were hurt when she treated her a certain way, and if Girl A doesn't care or acts like its no big deal than she needs to find new friends.

 

[EMom]

You're friends with A's mom, but the apple may not have fallen far from the tree in this case.

At the amusement park, it had to be clear your DD was being excluded when the new girl joined them and your DD was the one who had to ride alone. Yet Girl A's mom said not a word. No "Girls, let's take turns riding together." When I think back to when DD was little and she was friends with various girls and I wound up making friends with their moms, any of us would have spoken up and corrected that situation. None of us would have let the exclusion continue. A gentle suggestion of rider rotation could have taken care of it, but she didn't speak up.

At the playground, despite your DD's obvious distress, A's mom never said a word. She could have easily said to the girls, "There's plenty of room in that tunnel for all three of you," and with "the look" to her DD, that should have ended the matter. Again, I cannot think of one of the moms of DD's former playmates who wouldn't have done this. It's that simple.

To be blunt, she doesn't have an issue with her DD excluding your daughter. It's that simple. Why continue this friendship, be it between the children or the moms? Her DD has no problem being mean to yours and the mom has no problem allowing it. Quite frankly, I'd find a better class of friend. One more time, it appears the apple didn't fall far from the tree and you need to recognize that. Maybe Mom A not correcting her DD is actually her way of excluding YOU.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

I could have written this a million times about every girl-relationship dynamic I've ever seen. And I studied this (and bullying, by extension) in college for my psychology degree. There is ONE solution here.

Start gently guiding your DD toward different friends. They are 7-ish right now, it's only going to get worse, especially if Friend A's mom is more concerned about her DD's popularity than your DD's feelings. She will never be on board and you will have even more problems with her as the girls get older.

I have an 11 year old DD, 6th grade, and are entering the throes of the Mean Girl stage. My DD has been friends with/in class with the same kids since 1st grade, I've been the coach of several of them, and a Girl Scout leader for part of the time as well. You can tell pretty early on who is going to end up being the mean girls, the sporty girls, the smart girls, the nice girls, etc, believe it or not. There are always the floaters who pretty much fit in anywhere, but by middle school they usually end up finding a group.

Anyway, I always thought that the "mean girls" in DD's grade were relatively nice for mean girls. The Queen Bee is smart, funny, nice, and wins pretty much everything she tries for, whether she is good at it or not. She has always been nice to my DD, and they were friends when they were little, but I started to see who she was hanging around with and how their mom's were (her mom included), and I realized that once these girls got older, I could foresee a lot of drama, bad decisions, and no support from the moms who already thought their DD's were perfect.

So, being a coach and GS Leader and knowing so many girls/moms personally, I started to (covertly) guide DD toward a different group of girls - these are the girls who are well-behaved, smart, sweet, and respect each other's opinions and ideas, but are also fun to be around. I would encourage her to invite these girls over to play, or invite them to go to the park with us during DS's baseball games, or to the mall, etc. She was still friends with the mean girls, but stopped doing so much with them after school. Pretty soon, she made the choice herself that her new friends were MUCH nicer to her, and she wasn't so stressed out all the time about being around them. She could just be herself. She is still friendly toward all of the mean girls, but she is never involved in their drama and won't get in trouble with them as they all get older.

And I am soooo glad! I am friends with a lot of the mean girls' moms (one in particular, we work closely as directors/coaches for a local team) and apparently, there was a incident a few weeks ago at a sleepover that involved a "top 10 Reasons Why We All Hate You" text that went out to one of the girls who was in their group, but someone decided they didn't like her anymore. It all blew up and all of the girls ended up in the principals office and their moms were all brought in. The Queen Bee that I mentioned before was at the sleepover and involved, but denied it and her mother actually told my friend that she "mom-failed" by even asking her DD about it because her DD started to cry and said she cannot believe her mom would think she would do something like that. Her mother ended up apologizing to HER! But all of the girls there said that Ms. Queen Bee was the one who suggested the list in the first place.

Ugg....so glad I foresaw this when DD was in 2nd/3rd grade and started to encourage her to make new friendships, or she likely would have been involved in all of that mess, too.

And, FWIW, DD invited two of her friends to a play last night that another friend of theirs was starring in, then the girls came back to our house for a sleepover. 3 girls + NO problems at all. So it can happen with the right combinations.

"Queen Bees and Wannabes" by Rosalin Wiseman, should be a must read for any mom of a girl, in my opinion. And "Queen Bee Moms and Kingpin Dads" by the same author is equally helpful. I highly suggest getting your hands on a copy of both books.

Good luck to us all. Haha

 

[teller80]

I just wanted to give you a hug. It's so hard when we see our kids get hurt, you just want to protect them from all of it. Life's experiences (good and bad) make us who we are, and I'll bet she grows up remembering what it was like to be excluded and will take care not to do it to others.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Excellent post, Lilacs!

OP, I do think that, especially at this younger age, the parent's actions and influence can say a lot.
We all know that girls can go thru drama-stages... Who is a 'BEST' friend, and who is not.. etc...
But, when one sees that it is ongoing, and the mom seems to be okay with you and your daughter actually leaving... because, her own perfect snowflake is all that matters.

Yep, it's time to do two things...
1. Step back a little, and let dd try to fly on her own. She may just surprise you!!!!
2. And, ask yourself, very bluntly... is this mom a person that you really want a close friendship with.

I think that friendly acquaintances and close friends are two different things.
And, one doesn't necessarily need to try to separate one's self from those that are not 'close friends' and be (fr)enemies.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

This is so true! I have several good friends that we used to do playgroup with, for years. Dd13 is no longer close with some of their daughters (one across the street). There is no animosity- just in different groups, that formed once they got to school (same elementary school). Some kids click, some don't. A couple of moms couldn't understand this, and would try to force friendships (which never works).

Yes, we have experienced this as well, with my 3 kids. When they are little, they play with whoever is convienent (in the same class, lives next door, moms are friends, etc). Once they start getting older, they will start picking their own friends.

One of the best ways to figure out who your kid really likes and wants to spent time with is to ask: "You can invite 10 friends to your birthday party. Who would you like?" or "If you want to have a sleepover this weekend, you can. You can invite up to three friends" (I ask often since I let my kids have sleepovers and friends over all the time - we love having the kids in the house. Keeps my kids home and I get to listen to all of the middle-school happenings!)

Their list will tell you pretty quick who *they* want to be around and who they don't. The list will change dramatically as they get older. It's always been kind of my benchmark for seeing where my kids were at in their social relationships.

 

[lovin'fl]

I have twin DDs-17 and I thank God that they are twins and ALWAYS have each other (I only had a brother 5 years older than me so I was pretty much solo). Unfortunately, mean girls are a very common thing. Parents won't correct because they like their kids to be 'top dogs' (or 'front runners'- as a good friend of mine likes to call them). It is true that we cannot control what other kids say or do (or other parents), we can only work with our own kids and I always make a conscientious effort to guide my DDs to be nice, kind, thoughtful girls and am very proud that they are that. They might be too nice and they get screwed over a lot but they don't let it bother them. I love that they are sweet girls and wouldn't trade for a 'top dog' type daughter, not in a million years. When they do get hurt by mean girls (mostly when they were younger), I point out that the mean girl behavior is not nice and not being a true friend so maybe they want to stick with their true friends. They do learn and mine now, at 17, have little to do with the mean girls.

Also you kind of want your DD to handle things on her own. When she comes over crying, maybe say 'either go back and figure it out with your friends or if you aren't having fun we can go home'. Then she'll learn that she needs to work it out or say 'screw it, I don't want to play with this girl anymore' or 'if I keep running to my mom she will take me home'....it's in her hands.

 

[dotfurio]

You can tell pretty early on who is going to end up being the mean girls, the sporty girls, the smart girls, the nice girls, etc, believe it or not.

I don't think it's a good idea to put kids in a box based on one aspect of their personality. No one is always nice or always mean. As a teacher and a GS leader myself I've seen "nice" kids say or do mean things and I've seen "bullies" show kindness and consideration for others. When people label children as mean or nice and that's that then what opportunity do they have to grow as a person?

 

[Lilacs4Me]

I don't think it's a good idea to put kids in a box based on one aspect of their personality. No one is always nice or always mean. As a teacher and a GS leader myself I've seen "nice" kids say or do mean things and I've seen "bullies" show kindness and consideration for others. When people label children as mean or nice and that's that then what opportunity do they have to grow as a person?

Agreed.

Nobody was walking around telling the girls this or drawing a box on the floor and telling them where they belong. LOL so let's not get all crazy here pretending that I said I was labeling these kids based on one aspect of their personality. My post was already long enough, these titles were much easier to type out than "the girl who was sometimes nice, but sometimes mean around one girl, but when her mom was there she was sweet as pie to girl A, but snotty to girl B". Right?!

But I challenge you to sit and observe ANY group of girls from Kindergarten -5th grade for a decent length of time and come back and tell me that you cannot see kids who "fits" a particular type - they don't have to STAY that type, but I, at least, can definitely see certain tendancies to act a certain way in certain kids. I have found that most people do not like to be blunt or direct when it comes to this subject, but if we are not, we cannot help our kids efficiently, IMO. Fact is, there is a pretty structured social hiearchy that develops at a fairly young age, and we can either see it for what it is, or pretend it doesn't exist because we don't want to "label" kids, and then wonder why our girls are miserably staying in relationships with friends that may not be good friends.

Since you are a teacher, I have a question for you. As a coach, there is no "Star" on my team. Everyone is equal and gets an equal chance to be special, have a leadership role, be in front, etc. We don't play social hiearchy. I've almost never seen this develop in a classroom. There has ALWAYS been a social hiearchy in any class I've observed. You are a teacher - do you have any ideas why this is so hard to squash?

 

[lovin'fl]

I think it comes from that mentality, and I even stated this above, that we need to let kids handle things on their own. But what some don't realize is that adults need to GUIDE kids, that is our job. Some folks (and I throw them in the 'free range' parents category...or box, LOL) say that kids need to develop into their own person...but I feel, sometimes, it's just sheer laziness. And, also, the wanting their kids to be 'top dog' as maybe they weren't as a kid and they are now living through their kids. Just a couple theories.

 

[dotfurio]

Agreed.

Nobody was walking around telling the girls this or drawing a box on the floor and telling them where they belong. LOL so let's not get all crazy here.

But I challenge you to sit and observe ANY group of girls from Kindergarten -5th grade for a decent length of time and come back and tell me that you cannot see kids who "fits" a particular type - they don't have to STAY that type, but I, at least, can definitely see certain traits in certain kids.

I have observed kids not my own from 1st grade through middle school in my career. I find there are kids who make bad decisions and need guidance to make better ones. However, in so many cases, when they try not be the "mean" one anymore, everyone from peers to teachers have already identified and react to them as such and so the kids feel like they can't win so why fight it. Same goes for the kids labeled as "dumb." I just don't agree with labeling kids, be it in a good or bad way. We are far to complex to be narrowed down to one adjective and I think it's unfair to the kid. However, I have many colleagues who agree with you. That kid's the bully. That one's low. That one's smart. There's the sporty kid. The artist. Whether or not they're verbally telling the kids that, their reactions do.

Here's an example. One year I had a boy who was the "mean" kid. Every day I can't tell you how many kids tattled on every move he made, even when he wasn't doing anything wrong. They excluded him and no one wanted to do group work with him or sit by him. Yet I've seen this same kid, without prompting, assist another student when they couldn't figure out how to do something on their computer. I've also seen him stand up for a kid when another kid was being mean. At the end of my parent conference his mom said I was the only teacher who ever said anything nice about him. This was in 5th grade! You've got to be able to see the good in them or how will they ever see it in themselves?

 

[PollyannaMom]

Whenever my kids have had friend issues, I've encouraged them to try and make new friends. Then, if a friendship with someone doesn't work out it is not a big deal.

I've done this as well. I'd much rather DS have a few different friends than have him be dependent on only one "best" friend.

It has been a while since mine were that age, but as I recall having three girls that age try to do anything together is always a problem. One is always left out. Limit it to one friend at a time or add a fourth girl. Of course, this doesn't help if you bump into a third girl in public places.

Agree!! There are exceptions, I'm sure, but in my experience, groups of three girls are generally a recipe for disaster! I know you couldn't help it in the amusement park situation, but I would definitely avoid it in planned playdates.

I've just told my kids that people who only act like friends sometimes aren't really friends...

So true!

...Think of this as practice for the teenage years: you wouldn't encourage your daughter to pine after a boy who has lost interest in her or who mistreats her - you'd tell her to move on. This is the same kind of situation, except in kid form. A great opportunity for your daughter to learn that it's a big world out there with a lot of wonderful people.

This is a good point too.


And also, I'm really questioning the other mom. Maybe she just doesn't like to discuss these things in public, and lectured her DD about how she treated yours after they got home, but it sounds more like she just isn't bothered by the behavior. As the kids get a little older, they tend to get together without all the adults, and just one parent at a time drives them somewhere. Do you really want her to be the adult in charge when you're not there?

 

[Lilacs4Me]

I have observed kids not my own from 1st grade through middle school in my career. I find there are kids who make bad decisions and need guidance to make better ones. However, in so many cases, when they try not be the "mean" one anymore, everyone from peers to teachers have already identified and react to them as such and so the kids feel like they can't win so why fight it. Same goes for the kids labeled as "dumb." I just don't agree with labeling kids, be it in a good or bad way. We are far to complex to be narrowed down to one adjective and I think it's unfair to the kid. However, I have many colleagues who agree with you. That kid's the bully. That one's low. That one's smart. There's the sporty kid. The artist. Whether or not they're verbally telling the kids that, their reactions do.

Here's an example. One year I had a boy who was the "mean" kid. Every day I can't tell you how many kids tattled on every move he made, even when he wasn't doing anything wrong. They excluded him and no one wanted to do group work with him or sit by him. Yet I've seen this same kid, without prompting, assist another student when they couldn't figure out how to do something on their computer. I've also seen him stand up for a kid when another kid was being mean. At the end of my parent conference his mom said I was the only teacher who ever said anything nice about him. This was in 5th grade! You've got to be able to see the good in them or how will they ever see it in themselves?

So, I completely agree with you on what you are saying, but I think we are talking about two different things.

Kids who have social problems or a lower social IQ should absolutely NOT be judged and excluded based on things that have happened in the past.

What this thread is about, and what I am talking about, is the kids who are DOING the excluding and being mean for the purpose of making kids do what they want them to do, or to gain/retain social power over a group of kids. Since this mostly happens with girls (although boys can certainly have their moments, too) this is otherwise knows as the "Mean Girl" syndrome. These are the kids who are usually the brightest and best, the prettiest and/or most athletic, etc and have the gaggle of friends surrounding them whenever they move. The ones who on the surface seem to be the perfect kid who teachers and parents and principals and coaches and everyone else loves and adores, but as every kid in the class knows, is the one you need to fall all over yourself for or else she will make everyone hate you.

Not to judge you as a teacher - I'm sure you are amazing - but I will honestly say that I have rarely met a teacher who truly understands this social hiearchy, and more often, teachers try to deny that it even exists in their classroom.

But ask any 12 year old girl...heck, any 8 year old girl, and 95% of them will tell you that it does indeed very strongly exist. The other 5% usually largely consists of a pool of the Queen Bee mean girls - they don't see any problems whatsoever.

And if we are going to continue this conversation, and I would love to, I am going to respectfully ask you to stop picking my sentences apart and piecing them back together in order to come up with parts and peices of a quote that fits your point. You even went as far as to put a period in the middle of one of my sentences as though it was the end of my sentence, which it was not, AND you removed words that I did say in order to make it seem like I was saying something else. In the above, you have only quoted what you wanted to, which takes my thoughts out of context and skews the words to what you wish they mean so it fits your argument better. And no, your colleagues do NOT agree with me, because I never said what you are pretending to quote. Let's play fair here. And I would still like you to answer my question above. Thanks.

 

[mefordis]

I have twin DDs-17 and I thank God that they are twins and ALWAYS have each other (I only had a brother 5 years older than me so I was pretty much solo). Unfortunately, mean girls are a very common thing. Parents won't correct because they like their kids to be 'top dogs' (or 'front runners'- as a good friend of mine likes to call them). It is true that we cannot control what other kids say or do (or other parents), we can only work with our own kids and I always make a conscientious effort to guide my DDs to be nice, kind, thoughtful girls and am very proud that they are that. They might be too nice and they get screwed over a lot but they don't let it bother them. I love that they are sweet girls and wouldn't trade for a 'top dog' type daughter, not in a million years. When they do get hurt by mean girls (mostly when they were younger), I point out that the mean girl behavior is not nice and not being a true friend so maybe they want to stick with their true friends. They do learn and mine now, at 17, have little to do with the mean girls.

Also you kind of want your DD to handle things on her own. When she comes over crying, maybe say 'either go back and figure it out with your friends or if you aren't having fun we can go home'. Then she'll learn that she needs to work it out or say 'screw it, I don't want to play with this girl anymore' or 'if I keep running to my mom she will take me home'....it's in her hands.

I want to add that those "top dog" girls have a LOT of stress. It's not enough to be popular - you have to WORK to stay there. That is a LOT of pressure. Your girls seem to be having a laid back, easy going life by not being involved in the popularity BS. Being popular is not what it seems. There is so much anxiety that goes with it, always making sure you aren't excluded, or no one is taking your place. The group is always picking on or excluding someone within their very own group and everyone gets a turn being the butt of bullying. That's just their way of life and what they thrive on. I would never want that for my daughters.

 

[North of Mouse]

As my mom always said, 'two's a couple, three's a crowd'. I think this has always been the way it is. It was like this when I was a child (and older), also the way with our children. Fair, no, but life.

No advice, except to maybe seek new friends.

 

[lovin'fl]

As my mom always said, 'two's a couple, three's a crowd'. I think this has always been the way it is. It was like this when I was a child (and older), also the way with our children. Fair, no, but life.

No advice, except to maybe seek new friends.

My mom always said that too.

 

[Chocolate Cake]

I have observed on a few occasions that Girl A tends to 'ditch' my DD when another friend is present. Example: we were at an amusement park. We ran into one of Girl A's other friends (that we did not know). Girl A ran ahead with new friend and only wanted to sit with new friend on rides. My DD was hurt and I was a bit irked that Girl A mom didn't even say anything like "hey, you came here with so and so, you should ride with her".

If you went to the amusement park with just the two girls, then three was not a crowd. You planned a day out with another child. It was extremely rude of Girl A to run off with new friend and leave your daughter in the dust.

That type of girl carries on to college years. She calls you to go out a party. You get all ready, head to party as a duo, and she sees another friend and hangs out with her all night while you stand alone. Doesn't look your way once. Rude.

But it looks like Girl A's mom just doesn't care. She thinks this behavior is ok. I wouldn't spend another day with Girl A or her clueless mother. Time to find some new friends!

 

[low-key]

dont that just rip a parent up, you will do anything to spare your childs from going thru some of the stuff we went thru, but the thing is there isnt nothing you could but make it worse, just encourage her

 

[DisneyJules]

I truly sympathize with your daughter, as I've been in her shoes. As I learned in Sociology, 3 creates social conflict. I always found some of the kids that weren't so nice at school, were quite pleasant when I was lone with them on the bus or walking home, but the minute another "friend" was present, they were entirely different. I agree with the others, perhaps encourage your daughter to make some new friends. I know that's not always the easiest thing but she is still so young. A girl like "girl a" will rarely turn around and start being nice, who wants or needs a friend like that?