Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

Chase stated you can’t offer something like a hotel room take the money and not receive hotel room and not receive a refund - it is not allowed an it is a chargeback
I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel. I am a broker. I am the middle man. I agree that the renter's should be made whole. But I think the responsibility is on the owners.

One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?
 
I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel. I am a broker. I am the middle man. I agree that the renter's should be made whole. But I think the responsibility is on the owners.

One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?
He is also the author of the contracts and in litigation the ambiguity of a contract goes against the person who provides the contract. He is stuck and is trying to get people to agree to a new contract with different language. Also to the best of my knowledge he is not demanding owners return payment received because he really can't since there was no cause in the old contract unless the owner themselves canceled.
 
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I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel. I am a broker. I am the middle man. I agree that the renter's should be made whole. But I think the responsibility is on the owners.

One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?
He carries the ACTA accreditation right on his website (Association of Canadian Travel Agencies). Don't think he'd get away with that. And renters are only being offered the voucher, no refund possible at all is what I was told. He's using however many of those 70%s he can get his hands on to fund the vouchers I believe.
 
He carries the ACTA accreditation right on his website (Association of Canadian Travel Agencies). Don't think he'd get away with that. And renters are only being offered the voucher, no refund possible at all is what I was told. He's using however many of those 70%s he can get his hands on to fund the vouchers I believe.
I also believe he is setup as a sole proprietary. If this is true he is fighting to keep from going into personal bankruptcy since all of his personal assets are on the line.
 
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I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel. I am a broker. I am the middle man. I agree that the renter's should be made whole. But I think the responsibility is on the owners.

One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?

Broker that accepted the CC payment, so he Is the one who will be responsible for the chargeback.

He then has to go after owners if he wants to via trying to clawback the Paypal payment..

Not seeing how that Is going to help moving forward instill confidence in owners.
 
I don't know exactly how David's is structured or how the credit card companies, but playing devils advocate, if I were him, I'd make it known that I am not a travel agent selling travel. I am a broker. I am the middle man. I agree that the renter's should be made whole. But I think the responsibility is on the owners.

One thing I'm not clear on, is if the owner returns the 70%, are the renters getting cash or just a voucher?

If an owner pays back the 70% it goes to David’s, not the renter.
 
Broker that accepted the CC payment, so he Is the one who will be responsible for the chargeback.

He then has to go after owners if he wants to via trying to clawback the Paypal payment..

Not seeing how that Is going to help moving forward instill confidence in owners.

Paypal won’t accept any charge back from David’s to owners. He is not covered by PayPal protection.
 
Broker that accepted the CC payment, so he Is the one who will be responsible for the chargeback.

He then has to go after owners if he wants to via trying to clawback the Paypal payment..

Not seeing how that Is going to help moving forward instill confidence in owners.
The problem with him trying to get PayPal to clawback the funds is that he is going to have to prove he is entitled to it and I don't believe the language in the contracts he used will prove that for him.
 
I haven't read all 148 pages, but what did the other rental companies do?

They way I see it, there is no good solution.

Option 1) owner gives money back to renter. Owner's points expire. Owner is pissed.

Option 2) owner keeps 70% then David gives additional 30% on check in date. Renter is pissed.

3) owner keeps 100%, and David gives renter back 100%. David (as the middle man), ends up covering the entire cost. Customers are happy. David takes a massive loss. (Even a company as large as Disney would never do this. Disney wasn't exactly giving out free hotel rooms to those DVC members who's points expired. Their solution was to take inventory away from those who's points didn't expire).

4) Do what he's doing. Owner keeps 70%. Renter gets a 100% credit. David keeps 30%. It's not perfect for anyone. David is still taking a loss. He's using the 30% to offset the 100% credits. Of course, some won't get used, and he's spreading the negative cash flow over a longer period of time.

None of the solutions are good. I don't think its as simple as just letting owner and renter hash things out for a multitude of reasons such as.

1) privacy laws.
2) giving customers the opportunity to gain confidence that they won't need his service in the future. Etc....
Well based on BBB reviews and forums I found the rental company I used did the same random things as David's except much slower to make a decision to issue credits.
 
Case by case for 2 weeks is completely and totally different from case by case to a world where it is EVERYONE for 2.5 months. Go back to the beginning of the threat and see how people were mad at Disney for the Disney response.

Fixing 14 days of bookings as was originally thought is just not the same. As more is learned responses have to change. Disney changed, David changed restaurants changed. the government changed

On March 14 there were 200 some deaths. The public was being reassured the worst was over. Businesses have to plan and did. That March 14 world did not exist nor did it come close to existing and all planning for it was wrong. Of course if you are expecting David to know more and be more accurate than the US government and Disney then we have different worlds.

I would certainly be interested to find out the name of the 'good will' business that went bankrupt to stand by a contract that did not exist.

The fact is the best argument on the contract is not 2nd guessing as is so easy to do. It is that the contract became impossible to perform and that means something. It is not a question of 'who can go to court' or 'where do you sue'.

It’s perhaps not a clear as you may think. In the field sports industry it’s common place for no refunds to be given when a trip is cancelled due to an unexpected event. The no refunds clause is accepted. David’s no refunds clause could easily be accepted by CC and courts.
 
PayPal might be getting ready to clawback funds from him for renters who paid with paypal.

Davids maybe impacted by this, but not owners unless he used a credit card to pay them. Pay Pal protection is clear that it doesnt cover real estate related transactions. On this thread an owner who rented privately stated paypal rejected their renters claim against him.
 
Speaking as a renter, I'm understanding of his need to change directions and some degree of uncertainty during all of this. In the end, I'd personally be fine with the voucher if he hadn't A) raised his prices since I bought and B) added all the new conditions. I respect his need to navigate some pretty difficult financial waters here, but I'm going to try the charge back route simply because of those factors. "Here's a voucher that buys you less than what you had and, if Covid is still around next time, you have to sign off on me keeping all of your money and giving you nothing."
If he'd offered me a voucher for an equivalent number of premium points, and not with all the new conditions I'd be happy to go along with the voucher plan.
I'd be a lot more inclined to cut David's some slack if it weren't for those added conditions. They essentially force the renter to agree to get nothing in the case of another closure. That's just a ridiculous stipulation IMO and renters are being told "take it or leave it." You either risk getting nothing with the voucher or you turn down the voucher and get nothing.
 
We all understand that the contract was poorly written. Hindsight is 20-20. Keep in mind that they are likely limited staff and can't deal with individual negotiations between all the owners and renters. Other than allowing owner and renter to speak to each other, what blanket policy does everyone suggest these brokers to put out there to deal with the situation?
 
I'd be a lot more inclined to cut David's some slack if it weren't for those added conditions. They essentially force the renter to agree to get nothing in the case of another closure. That's just a ridiculous stipulation IMO and renters are being told "take it or leave it." You either risk getting nothing with the voucher or you turn down the voucher and get nothing.
I would demand a refund and not accept the voucher that he is hoping you will. He is counting on people agreeing to the new contract. From what I understand the " no refunds " clause is enforced if the cancelation is caused by the renter and this is clearly not the case. You cannot agree to new terms a d have a successful chargeback.
 
We all understand that the contract was poorly written. Hindsight is 20-20. Keep in mind that they are likely limited staff and can't deal with individual negotiations between all the owners and renters. Other than allowing owner and renter to speak to each other, what blanket policy does everyone suggest these brokers to put out there to deal with the situation?
Also remember he limited the ability of the owners to mitigate their losses by telling them not to cancel. Some owners at the time they did this still could have canceled and banked their points. (DVC later allowed this to happen anyway) this IMHO was only done for his self interest since the renter would be due a refund and the owner could have salvaged their points but the agency would have not made any commission. He would have been better off telling the owners who wanted to cancel to do so and get the money refunded.
 
We all understand that the contract was poorly written. Hindsight is 20-20. Keep in mind that they are likely limited staff and can't deal with individual negotiations between all the owners and renters. Other than allowing owner and renter to speak to each other, what blanket policy does everyone suggest these brokers to put out there to deal with the situation?
Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.
 
Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.
I meant to deal with the current Covid issue
 
Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.
So, basically adding the paragraph he has added to the voucher contract: "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancelations or rebooking will be permitted."
Right? Well, that's crazy! I hope no renter signs on a contract that basically tells you to give them money but no guarantee to give you anything!! Yes, I know you keep saying on this thread that this is normal in sports industry!! I think this should not be acceptable in any industry, especially travel industry!
 
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Huge changes are not required. A simple and quick fix can easily be made to the existing contract. Making sure that renters are better informed about the no refunds clause and making sure it’s not open to interpretation.
The problem with this is who is going to want to rent a DVC room knowing they could lose thousands? That is why the language on the new contracts in my opinion stick it to the owners. The secondary rental market is going to see big changes with owners and renters not wanting to rent under the current and new conditions. Going forward will be interesting
 



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