Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[CanadaDisney05]

I would rather bank the points , offer them to friends or family at the cost of the yearly dues or gift them to friends or family or donate them to my church and take a tax write off for the value of a cash room equivalent. For arguments sake say 100 points get you 5 nights for a studio valued at $600.00 a night that is 3k that I can write off. I much rather do one of those options instead of signing a convoluted contract.

Thats a noble thing, but I think that way of thinking puts you in the vast minority. Where I live, you'd get about 20% back on your taxes by making the donation. In a previous post I said that parks and resorts have been closed now for about 0.35% of WDWs existence. Let's use those numbers just for simplicity. I can't imagine the average person is willing to give up 80% of the profits to protect themselves from a 0.35% risk. Especially when the 0.35% probability represents an amount that can generally be swallowed (this isn't life/disability insurance where even with a low probability, the loss is far too large for someone to overcome financially).

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I would like to meet that renter or owner who gets screwed out of $2,000.00 + that will soon forget.

Most owners aren't getting screwed out of $2000 though. What percentage of DVC owners had a rental during this period? Of those, how many had the rental with this particular company. Of those, how many returned the 70%?

I agree, I don't think anyone who personally took a full loss on this will jump to use their services again. What I'm suggesting is that this number represents a vocal minority rather than the potential market. Most of those who weren't directly negatively affected will likely forget or simply won't care.

 

[Bearval]

Thats a noble thing, but I think that way of thinking puts you in the vast minority. Where I live, you'd get about 20% back on your taxes by making the donation. In a previous post I said that parks and resorts have been closed now for about 0.35% of WDWs existence. Let's use those numbers just for simplicity. I can't imagine the average person is willing to give up 80% of the profits to protect themselves from a 0.35% risk. Especially when the 0.35% probability represents an amount that can generally be swallowed (this isn't life/disability insurance where even with a low probability, the loss is far too large for someone to overcome financially).

You are contradicting yourself, in an earlier post you stated most owners could absorb the loss now you are saying they can't? Make up your mind which it is.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Thank you for the update. Unfortunately for David, if a significant number of renters pursue chargebacks rather than accept vouchers, and these chargebacks all get approved, it would be next to impossible to avoid bankruptcy.

Assuming the average booking horizon is 7.5 months, and the resorts would be closed for 2.5 months - this means 1/3 of David’s book of reservations would have been canceled. Since he only holds in cash ~25% of the funds paid by the renter (the money meant for the owners at check-in time), assuming 80% of renters file for chargebacks, basically all this money would be gone to reimburse renters.

A resort closure of 4 months would be certain bankruptcy. I would think David really really hopes the resorts would open really really soon, no matter what the parks do.

The other thing to consider from a business perspective is that for every chargeback filed the business pays fees. Additionally, too many chargebacks can result in a merchant losing their ability to take credit cards, but in the wake of the pandemic maybe this will be overlooked.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

You are contradicting yourself, in an earlier post you stated most owners could absorb the loss now you are saying they can't? Make up your mind which it is.

There's a difference between being able to absorb a loss without a financial hardship, and being willing to give away that kind of money.

 

[Donna M]

Section 15 of David's renter's agreement:

.... In the event that the suitable comparable accommodations, as determined by Intermediary in Intermediary’s sole discretion, are available for a sum greater than the original amount paid by the Renter, the difference in value shall be the responsibility of the Owner.

I read through both contracts with David's and noticed that the above is found only in the renter's agreement. Interesting that the owner is responsible for something that is not found in the owner's agreement. How can they get away with that? Looks like the owner is not agreeing to pay the difference. This is the clause that will keep me away from renting out my points. If I missed it after reading it twice, that's a problem too.

 

[Sandisw]

This is good to know, thank you!



Yeah, I've had more days to sleep on it, and in the last couple days all our other plans, events, trips, etc for the year have been cancelled by the event organizers, so I'm certainly feeling more defeated in general. All large gatherings in my state are cancelled until September, so please forgive me if I disagree that it's my choice & "it would be the same situation as if Covid never happened" once the hotels at WDW open back up.

To us the room was just location and benefit for everything outside the room - or I could go anywhere and wouldn't be paying the Disney premium. Til now, non-refundable to me meant if something happens in my life and we can't go my money is gone. Which I remain fine with. Not, the destination itself is changed but hey, you can technically go... Never would I have thought when I booked last year that my trip may well fall during a phased reopening during a pandemic (what will be available still TBD). My problem is thinking of it from the renter's POV rather than from the owner's POV which is you're providing the room, done. In the end I'll live and learn.

I can certainly understand where you are coming from as a renter, But, the contract that you signed was pretty clear that i represents accommodations only, and that there was no guarantee of anything else,

So, if the resort is open, and the room you paid for available for check in, and you decide not to go, I am not understanding how it isn’t a default on your part?

Currently, no room is a completely different scenario, and I do think Davids has an issue with the set up for doing something for those renters,

But, once resorts are available, as difficult as it may be for a renter and the experience different with limited options, the choice really to cancel does fall on the renter and not broker or owner.

 

[Grnl706]

I can certainly understand where you are coming from as a renter, But, the contract that you signed was pretty clear that i represents accommodations only, and that there was no guarantee of anything else,

So, if the resort is open, and the room you paid for available for check in, and you decide not to go, I am not understanding how it isn’t a default on your part?

Currently, no room is a completely different scenario, and I do think Davids has an issue with the set up for doing something for those renters,

But, once resorts are available, as difficult as it may be for a renter and the experience different with limited options, the choice really to cancel does fall on the renter and not broker or owner.

This was my thinking as a renter too. If the resorts are open, that becomes on me. That's where I try my travel insurance or eat the money. I wouldn't even expect to be offered that stupid voucher from David's.

The contract doesn't say anything about the parks, just the room. It's not on the owner or David's for me to have a certain experience, just a room. Now if the room is cancelled because of the closure (looking more likely now that they're not accepting reservations in June), I would expect some type of remedy like a refund or to file a charge back.

 

[Bearval]

There's a difference between being able to absorb a loss without a financial hardship, and being willing to give away that kind of money.

Doesn't really matter in both cases the owner is out 2k. One is willingly the other is forced upon them.

 

[Sandisw]

This was my thinking as a renter too. If the resorts are open, that becomes on me. That's where I try my travel insurance or eat the money. I wouldn't even expect to be offered that stupid voucher from David's.

The contract doesn't say anything about the parks, just the room. It's not on the owner or David's for me to have a certain experience, just a room. Now if the room is cancelled because of the closure (looking more likely now that they're not accepting reservations in June), I would expect some type of remedy like a refund or to file a charge back.

You can still book DVC rooms in June, It is only cash reservations not being taken.

 

[Grnl706]

You can still book DVC rooms in June, It is only cash reservations not being taken.

I know. Still, to me I take the cash reservation change as a sign that it may not look as good for June to be when they open. At least mod June when my reservation is.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I agree that owners already took on most risks by owning. That’s also why I think it’s fair that renters also take some of the risks when they get a big discount on the rooms.

Some renters wants to have the cake and eat it too.

Owners have at least 70% of their money (unless they voluntarily returned it) plus their points, some in better state than others. David’s has 100% of their money, and in many cases they are holding the owners remaining 30%. Renters are out 100% of their money, 100% of their service purchased, and are left with at best a questionable voucher if we do not escalate to insurance/credit card. Renters are far and away most screwed in the situation if they do nothing and accept status quo.

Renters do accept risks and downsides to renting. There is plenty outside of this pandemic that is way more inconvenient when it comes to renting, that we accept for discounted rooms. I’m sorry but the discount is hardly THAT high that that a major risk should be losing the reservation entirely with little to show for it while none of the other parties take a hit.

I really hate when this conversations turns to pitting owners and renters against each other.

 

[Bearval]

You can still book DVC rooms in June, It is only cash reservations not being taken.

The business of renting DVC points relies heavily on repeat customers, this includes the renters and the owners who make their points available. It is clear from looking at how alot of the Intermediaries are restructuring their contracts that they place alot more value on the renters now. It is going to be tougher to run a business when you don't have a product to sell and with Disney most likely steeply discounting the rooms to draw back the crowds when they are allowed to.

 

[Bearval]

I know. Still, to me I take the cash reservation change as a sign that it may not look as good for June to be when they open. At least mod June when my reservation is.

It could be that the resort may be open but not the parks. Disney does not want to piss off a cash customer.

 

[Bearval]

Owners have at least 70% of their money (unless they voluntarily returned it) plus their points, some in better state than others. David’s has 100% of their money, and in many cases they are holding the owners remaining 30%. Renters are out 100% of their money, 100% of their service purchased, and are left with at best a questionable voucher if we do not escalate to insurance/credit card. Renters are far and away most screwed in the situation if they do nothing and accept status quo.

Renters do accept risks and downsides to renting. There is plenty outside of this pandemic that is way more inconvenient when it comes to renting, that we accept for discounted rooms. I’m sorry but the discount is hardly THAT high that that a major risk should be losing the reservation entirely with little to show for it while none of the other parties take a hit.

I really hate when this conversations turns to pitting owners and renters against each other.

I am not a renter or and owner who has rented points but I feel for both sides but think almost all of the anger is towards the Intermediary do to a piss poor contract. In my opinion any owner who was made completely whole should refund the monies , this would be the owners who had 2021points returned to 2021 and those who could bank 2020 points. The Intermediary should be on the hook for making the renters whole.

 

[TCRAIG]

This is what really irks me the most. In doing this IMO he proved that the voucher isn’t worth the webpage is was booked on, lol. He has proven that he is only acting in his own best interest and if someone were to bring this to the BBB and show where the company specifically directed owners to not cancel so that he would not have to give a refund, I’m not sure that would sit well with them in regards to his standing as a trustworthy company.

But if the owner cancelled - wouldn’t that pretty much guarantee that the owner would have to reimburse - since that’s what is in the contract?

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I am not a renter or and owner who has rented points but I feel for both sides but think almost all of the anger is towards the Intermediary do to a piss poor contract. In my opinion any owner who was made completely whole should refund the monies , this would be the owners who had 2021points returned to 2021 and those who could bank 2020 points. The Intermediary should be on the hook for making the renters whole.

100% of my anger and frustration is directed at David’s, lol.

We all used him as an intermediary for a relatively hefty fee and he has proven himself to be a matchmaker and nothing more.

 

[Bearval]

But if the owner cancelled - wouldn’t that pretty much guarantee that the owner would have to reimburse - since that’s what is in the contract?

Yes it would but if they canceled early enough they could have banked the points ,refunded the money and they David's would have to refund the renter. Why do you think David's was telling the onwers not to cancel?????????????

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Doesn't really matter in both cases the owner is out 2k. One is willingly the other is forced upon them.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I personally think there is a huge difference when you are voluntarily giving away money vs having it taken away.

The business of renting DVC points relies heavily on repeat customers, this includes the renters and the owners who make their points available. It is clear from looking at how alot of the Intermediaries are restructuring their contracts that they place alot more value on the renters now. It is going to be tougher to run a business when you don't have a product to sell do to the language in the new contracts with the pint owners along with Disney most likely steeply discounting the rooms to draw back the crowds when they are allowed to.

Of course you need both sides to make the business work. But I think it's always harder to find people to give you money than it is to find people to give money to.

I am not a renter or and owner who has rented points but I feel for both sides but think almost all of the anger is towards the Intermediary do to a piss poor contract. In my opinion any owner who was made completely whole should refund the monies , this would be the owners who had 2021points returned to 2021 and those who could bank 2020 points. The Intermediary should be on the hook for making the renters whole.

The thing is, the intermediary doesn't have the inventory supply to just give everyone everything. They aren't a retailer. They don't buy supply then resell it. They just manage the transaction between two individuals and get a piece as compensation (roughly 25%). If they give the owners and renters both 100%, they are giving away 175% with no compensation to show for it. Even as large as Disney is, they wouldn't give that much money away. I don't think you can expect a small business like David's to just give away that kind of cash that they likely don't even have.

 

[banzai75]

Before all this started I didn't know anything about rented points, use year, banked points, borrowed. I just made a reservation at a slightly discounted rate than Aulani. Saw some good reviews and went with it. Saw the no-cancel party and was fine with it. I made a April Resy in January.

Started contacting David come March, asking him if he could contact owner. Kept saying they only doing March reservations. They wouldnt touch mine. April came, then he said there is a voucher coming. I was excited about that. So I don' think he even tried to contact my owner.


Mid April comes and new voucher terms come out and I saw they were terrible. Proceeded with chargeback. All my anger directed towards David not the owner.