Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[YourEveryDayAdam]

Hello all,

Im writing for some clarification. As an owner who rented points to a family, whose vacation was cancelled in May, my preference would have been to work directly with the owners to work something out. Am I correct in reading that if my points are now re-rented, they are subject to a new contract putting liability on me to refund money? I certainly don't want to screw over the renters, but I will not agree to terms of a new contract that puts liability on me. Trying to let my conscience be my guide, but it seems to me that requesting me to refund money to him, but not offering cash refunds to his renters puts me in a situation to look like the "bad guy". Any stipulation out there that says I can't contact the renters directly and work something out? My fear would be that he starts renting out the contracts that expire soonest, and my points maybe being rented last minute, or maybe not at all?? Then would he try and come after my $$ at that time?

If the renters are working with David's, then they got a voucher and can re-rent in the future...assuming David's is still in business then. If David's business survives this, then they will be made some semblance of whole. There are many valid arguments that these renters should be getting a full cash refund, but David's is refusing to honor that part of his contract with his customers.

A lot of renters are simply disputing the purchase with their credit card companies and we are starting to see many of those first disputes come back in favor of the renter. This likely means most, if not all, renters who dispute the charges with their credit cards are going to get their money back from David's. They are being fully made whole. This is something that has the great potential to put David's business at significant risk.

You are not obligated to agree to the new contract. You can say no. If you are not comfortable with the new terms, then I would NOT recommend you agree to them.

Some people consider it the right thing to do to refund the money to David's. That is your call. I certainly cannot and will not argue with that point of view. Refunding the money to David's will help his business potentially survive in the end. It will help him to fund the vouchers he is now on the hook for and provide cash to potentially pay off the credit card charge backs that are coming.

A lot of owners, who have points that cannot be realistically used and/or rerented, are refusing to return the money to David's as they were promised no risks and were (for all intents and purposes) given a guarantee that they would get paid. I also cannot and will not argue with this point of view either. A lot of owners rented points with David's simply because they would be unable to use those points and wanted to get some value out of them before they expired and couldn't be used. A lot of owners are going to have their points expire and be unusable.

Put simply: It's impossible for everyone to "Win" in this scenario. Owners, Renters, and David's can and will lose. TBH, renters have the best possible outcome to this: Dispute the charge with your credit card. You'll get cash that, if you want, you can use to re-rent points later...put it in savings...pay bills...take it straight to Disney and get a good deal directly from the mouse when they reopen...Cash is KING!

Most recently reported interactions with David's seems to be along the lines of that he is letting owners keep that money, and asking that they re-rent their points with the promise of the remaining 30% being paid out to them. Reports are mixed, but it seems that David's is paying some owners the remaining 30% now when the points are re-rented and for some owners David's is not doing that. There have also been a report or two of David's agreeing to the old contract terms for re-rented points. If that is important to you, then be sure to insist on this and don't feel obligated to rerent your points if David's refuses.

David's has been refusing to pay the remaining 30% to all owners unless they agree to re-rent and this will typically put those owners under the new terms. There are many valid arguments on both sides of the coin. I don't think ANYONE would argue that by giving the money back to David's that you are the "bad guy". If anything, that is likely the best thing you are able to do from the "let your conscience be your guide" perspective.

Another point of view is that if enough people file charge backs, and enough owners refuse to rerent points, then David's inevitably goes bankrupt. There won't be enough owners willing to rerent points to satisfy all the vouchers he's been issuing. David's still has to pay his staff, rent, expenses, and these overhead costs aren't going away. There are folks here that seem to think bankruptcy is inevitable. While we don't have any insight into David's actual business finances, I can't say I would be surprised to see his business fail because of this.

It's possible to argue that even if every owner returned every penny that David's still wouldn't be able to survive because of his overhead expenses...staff wages, rent, etc. Most businesses cannot survive for three and a half months without delivering a single product...That's how long DVC resorts are likely to be shuttered (at minimum) at this point...mid March to end of June...3.5 months...30% annual loss of business. Even once the resorts reopen... his business, or ANY travel business, isn't going to return to the levels they were before COVID. Between the recession and folks being afraid to travel...THAT will likely take a year or two.

Additionally, Disney is likely to offer SIGNIFICANT discounts to get people to return back to the resorts/parks again. I remember the height of "The Great Recession" when Disney pretty regularly offered a flat 40% discount on rooms. Those prices put direct/CRO cash DVC rooms at about the same cost as going through David's. David's price is going to be more directly competing with Disney's cash price. That will dry up all his new business unless he lowers his rental rates...so either he's making LESS money off the top, or he's passing that reduced rate to the owners...that could also dry up the owners who are willing to rent with him.

My point on the last three paragraphs is that David's has a reasonable chance of failing, regardless of what happens. If you refund money back to him, you may be sending that cash to be sucked up by the bankruptcy instead. His renters won't see that money at all then.

If it were me, I'd agree to re-rent the SPECIFIC points that I originally rented with David's, including all of the use restrictions around them...banked points...borrowed points...Disney extending expiration on some points...etc... I would only re-rent at the old contract terms, and if he paid the remaining 30% at the time I provide the reservation confirmation number. If he rents them and I get the remaining 30% great! If it's not possible to rerent those points, or David's is unable to find a new renter before banking deadlines, then i'd see if I could deposit those points in to RCI or try to use them for a last minute trip of some sort, and completely walk away not returning the amounts already paid.

In the end, do what you feel is best for you and your situation. If you have the money to be able to give the money back, you have a reasonable ability to use/rerent your points in the future, David's agrees to let you rerent at the old contract paying you the remaining funds due at time of reservation, and/or it helps you sleep better at night...those are all things that are unique to you, your points, and your situation. Weigh them carefully and you'll come to the right answer that makes sense for you...I don't think there really is a right/wrong answer here...and there DEFINITELY isn't one answer that applies to everyone's situation.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

Why are you using an intermediary?

Here is what I might add to the information. It’s part of the contract with my renter, but you should have it in yours

View attachment 495415

 

[Sandisw]

Why are you using an intermediary?

View attachment 495487

I am not sure I understand your question.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I am not sure I understand your question.

You said the attachment had language you suggested be added to an owner's contract to rent directly and that you used it. the language says

" if accomidations are not ......on the part of Member (owner) and after communication with the intermediary

Why do you have an intermediary in your contract with a renter?

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

You said the attachment had language you suggested be added to an owner's contract to rent directly and that you used it. the language says

" if accomidations are not ......on the part of Member (owner) and after communication with the intermediary

Why do you have an intermediary in your contract with a renter?

That's an excerpt from David's contract. I believe she was suggesting the PP include it in the information sent to the credit card company to support a charge back, not to include it in a private rental contract.

 

[Sandisw]

You said the attachment had language you suggested be added to an owner's contract to rent directly and that you used it. the language says

" if accomidations are not ......on the part of Member (owner) and after communication with the intermediary

Why do you have an intermediary in your contract with a renter?

I actually used Davids to rent. This was the first time I ever rented to someone I didn’t know and figured it be easier,

But, I posted that in response to a renter as what they should be showing from their contracts with Davids...to the CC company as documentstion.

So, this is the actual part of my contract for my renter through the broker, It’s why I am so frustrated because what I thought was a good move, given what has happened, I’m locked into following through with it.

 

[lovethesun12]

Yes, I think maybe in Canada? But, many airlines here are still processing refunds,

Delta just completely changed my flights from one layover to two and arrival time went from noon to 8 pm. Called and no issues being refunded.

I'm responding here because I mentioned prior that I received a credit and it was common, so it's possible those thoughts originated from me, but have read some articles since that you should be able to get a refund in Canada as well due to covid.

I haven't looked into it since because my flights were partially purchased through a rewards program and vouchers offered by the airline but just thought I would put it out there that a refund seems to be possible now if they call rather than cancel online.

 

[ScubaCat]

I actually used Davids to rent. This was the first time I ever rented to someone I didn’t know and figured it be easier,

But, I posted that in response to a renter as what they should be showing from their contracts with Davids...to the CC company as documentstion.

So, this is the actual part of my contract for my renter through the broker, It’s why I am so frustrated because what I thought was a good move, given what has happened, I’m locked into following through with it.

I did my first ever rental thru David's in February. Nice timing... Checkin isn't til next January so hopefully my lifetime record of success with David's will be 1 for 1. I certainly won't make this mistake again though. Disboards rent/trade forum next time for sure.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Me too !!

 

[BDJazz]

If the renters are working with David's, then they got a voucher and can re-rent in the future...assuming David's is still in business then. If David's business survives this, then they will be made some semblance of whole. There are many valid arguments that these renters should be getting a full cash refund, but David's is refusing to honor that part of his contract with his customers.

A lot of renters are simply disputing the purchase with their credit card companies and we are starting to see many of those first disputes come back in favor of the renter. This likely means most, if not all, renters who dispute the charges with their credit cards are going to get their money back from David's. They are being fully made whole. This is something that has the great potential to put David's business at significant risk.

You are not obligated to agree to the new contract. You can say no. If you are not comfortable with the new terms, then I would NOT recommend you agree to them.

Some people consider it the right thing to do to refund the money to David's. That is your call. I certainly cannot and will not argue with that point of view. Refunding the money to David's will help his business potentially survive in the end. It will help him to fund the vouchers he is now on the hook for and provide cash to potentially pay off the credit card charge backs that are coming.

A lot of owners, who have points that cannot be realistically used and/or rerented, are refusing to return the money to David's as they were promised no risks and were (for all intents and purposes) given a guarantee that they would get paid. I also cannot and will not argue with this point of view either. A lot of owners rented points with David's simply because they would be unable to use those points and wanted to get some value out of them before they expired and couldn't be used. A lot of owners are going to have their points expire and be unusable.

Put simply: It's impossible for everyone to "Win" in this scenario. Owners, Renters, and David's can and will lose. TBH, renters have the best possible outcome to this: Dispute the charge with your credit card. You'll get cash that, if you want, you can use to re-rent points later...put it in savings...pay bills...take it straight to Disney and get a good deal directly from the mouse when they reopen...Cash is KING!

Most recently reported interactions with David's seems to be along the lines of that he is letting owners keep that money, and asking that they re-rent their points with the promise of the remaining 30% being paid out to them. Reports are mixed, but it seems that David's is paying some owners the remaining 30% now when the points are re-rented and for some owners David's is not doing that. There have also been a report or two of David's agreeing to the old contract terms for re-rented points. If that is important to you, then be sure to insist on this and don't feel obligated to rerent your points if David's refuses.

David's has been refusing to pay the remaining 30% to all owners unless they agree to re-rent and this will typically put those owners under the new terms. There are many valid arguments on both sides of the coin. I don't think ANYONE would argue that by giving the money back to David's that you are the "bad guy". If anything, that is likely the best thing you are able to do from the "let your conscience be your guide" perspective.

Another point of view is that if enough people file charge backs, and enough owners refuse to rerent points, then David's inevitably goes bankrupt. There won't be enough owners willing to rerent points to satisfy all the vouchers he's been issuing. David's still has to pay his staff, rent, expenses, and these overhead costs aren't going away. There are folks here that seem to think bankruptcy is inevitable. While we don't have any insight into David's actual business finances, I can't say I would be surprised to see his business fail because of this.

It's possible to argue that even if every owner returned every penny that David's still wouldn't be able to survive because of his overhead expenses...staff wages, rent, etc. Most businesses cannot survive for three and a half months without delivering a single product...That's how long DVC resorts are likely to be shuttered (at minimum) at this point...mid March to end of June...3.5 months...30% annual loss of business. Even once the resorts reopen... his business, or ANY travel business, isn't going to return to the levels they were before COVID. Between the recession and folks being afraid to travel...THAT will likely take a year or two.

Additionally, Disney is likely to offer SIGNIFICANT discounts to get people to return back to the resorts/parks again. I remember the height of "The Great Recession" when Disney pretty regularly offered a flat 40% discount on rooms. Those prices put direct/CRO cash DVC rooms at about the same cost as going through David's. David's price is going to be more directly competing with Disney's cash price. That will dry up all his new business unless he lowers his rental rates...so either he's making LESS money off the top, or he's passing that reduced rate to the owners...that could also dry up the owners who are willing to rent with him.

My point on the last three paragraphs is that David's has a reasonable chance of failing, regardless of what happens. If you refund money back to him, you may be sending that cash to be sucked up by the bankruptcy instead. His renters won't see that money at all then.

If it were me, I'd agree to re-rent the SPECIFIC points that I originally rented with David's, including all of the use restrictions around them...banked points...borrowed points...Disney extending expiration on some points...etc... I would only re-rent at the old contract terms, and if he paid the remaining 30% at the time I provide the reservation confirmation number. If he rents them and I get the remaining 30% great! If it's not possible to rerent those points, or David's is unable to find a new renter before banking deadlines, then i'd see if I could deposit those points in to RCI or try to use them for a last minute trip of some sort, and completely walk away not returning the amounts already paid.

In the end, do what you feel is best for you and your situation. If you have the money to be able to give the money back, you have a reasonable ability to use/rerent your points in the future, David's agrees to let you rerent at the old contract paying you the remaining funds due at time of reservation, and/or it helps you sleep better at night...those are all things that are unique to you, your points, and your situation. Weigh them carefully and you'll come to the right answer that makes sense for you...I don't think there really is a right/wrong answer here...and there DEFINITELY isn't one answer that applies to everyone's situation.

Thank you for such a great, well-thought-out response. So many unknowns here. I appreciate you giving me some items to think about and consider. I very much wish we could deal with the original renters directly and avoid this mess.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

I wished it too and you can’t help but laugh when you step back and look at this big stupid mess !! Because trying to do the right thing by letting your heart conscience be your guide doesn’t work because well
- there’s David / and he is Messing up everything - as they saying goes - he’s the fly in the ointment! I’ve got more sayings but I would be kicked off the DIS and I love the DIS boards too much to do that !!

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

Thank you for such a great, well-thought-out response. So many unknowns here. I appreciate you giving me some items to think about and consider. I very much wish we could deal with the original renters directly and avoid this mess.

I agree. A HUGE portion of David's issues could've been resolved if he simply let owners and renters agree to reschedule. Some owners would be unable to due to point expiration, others would simply be greedy and be unwilling unless David's paid out the remainder. Some renters would be unable because they only get one time of year to travel and points would expire before hand, or unwilling due to concerns about COVID. These are all valid points of view.

But I can guess that about half of all of these situations would've simply been taken care of if David's simply got out of the way:
"Hey, I want to work with my owner/renter to try to reschedule"
"Okay, let me check with them and give them your contact info. Be sure to let me know what you work out..."

Options that owners and renters can come to could include rescheduling to a new room, new resort, new dates...maybe owners can bank points and push them a year forward...maybe an owner can use existing year's points themselves or deposit points in to RCI and give the renter the next year's points...maybe even the option exists for the owner to return the money to David's, David's then returns the money to the renter...maybe the renter would be willing to give up 10% to David's for his expenses for a cash refund, or keep 100% of it as his Voucher.

For owners/renters who refuse to make a compromise, THEN force your silly voucher on them. I get there are going to be some Grade A prime "Gastons" out there who will only think of themselves and be unwilling to compromise...but I think for the most part everyone will be willing to figure something out. At least give them the chance.

Again, I think AT LEAST half of the reservations could've been dealt with like this...ESPECIALLY once DVC gave an extension on expiration for the severely distressed points, and made unbanking the default, breathing a LOT of new life in to otherwise dead points.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Amen !! I begged him to contact my Owner and walked it up the food chain - they were very rude firm NO
Once resort closed -I again begged - again firm NO
Then I demanded a refund - they said too busy dealing with Florida - no problem chargeback
As for MY renter - as I have previously posted - I contacted David’s and renter Before their checkin - no they did not wish to go - I stated to David I would rebook - he told renter as renter sent me that email - I had several email exchanges covering several weeks with renter to Nail down dates - when came time to book - before I booked - contacted renter as I had heard nothing from David in over a month - renter stated they took voucher and wished me well!
ok good luck to you getting your dates for Spring Break when David starts booking whenever the heck that is!!!
i will still have kindness in me for my other two rentals BUT I will not be reaching out to them
If I am asked to Re-rent - yes BUT under terms of the ONLY contract I signed the old one AND my 30% will be Paid at time of booking or I won’t book
I have well over 300 points rented out currently with him
Now if he takes FOREVER asking me to rent - well that dog don’t hunt! Because when my banking window opens believe me I’m banking - and since I can only borrow 50% he is going to be shooting his own foot! I think that little problem will start showing it’s ugly head soon enough in our big ole pot of HOT MESS!!

 

[Amymouse13]

Amen !! I begged him to contact my Owner and walked it up the food chain - they were very rude firm NO
Once resort closed -I again begged - again firm NO
Then I demanded a refund - they said too busy dealing with Florida - no problem chargeback
As for MY renter - as I have previously posted - I contacted David’s and renter Before their checkin - no they did not wish to go - I stated to David I would rebook - he told renter as renter sent me that email - I had several email exchanges covering several weeks with renter to Nail down dates - when came time to book - before I booked - contacted renter as I had heard nothing from David in over a month - renter stated they took voucher and wished me well!
ok good luck to you getting your dates for Spring Break when David starts booking whenever the heck that is!!!
i will still have kindness in me for my other two rentals BUT I will not be reaching out to them
If I am asked to Re-rent - yes BUT under terms of the ONLY contract I signed the old one AND my 30% will be Paid at time of booking or I won’t book
I have well over 300 points rented out currently with him
Now if he takes FOREVER asking me to rent - well that dog don’t hunt! Because when my banking window opens believe me I’m banking - and since I can only borrow 50% he is going to be shooting his own foot! I think that little problem will start showing it’s ugly head soon enough in our big ole pot of HOT MESS!!

Well yeah you do you boo... David's is sure doing for him. He signed the contract too so my response would be where is that in your contract? Agreement to rent points that's it. Nothing about what if Disney is closed. Closest to signed contract is to rerent points to same folks, second is renting to someone else... Imo. He doesn't rerent the points after you contacted him? That's on him. Sure 70% isn't 100%, but other than threats looks like lawsuit might be only recourse for owners as he's just making amendments on the fly for a situation never imagined. Owners just wanted money for points. I wouldn't jump on refunding money as it's not in contract and doesn't seem to help renter. Heck I'm trying to keep all the money I can lol...

 

[najgreen]

For those of you that have had rentals, how did you get your official cancellation? We are booked for mid- June at Aulani and Hawaii has extended its 14 day visitor quarantine through the end of June. I have travel insurance and was going to make a claim (I figure I have nothing to lose) with AIG and see if they would accept it before then trying a credit card claim. I called to find out what documentation they need, and they want the cancellation notification from the resort. Do you get that from David's? I know they are cancelling about a week out, so I won't get mine for another couple of weeks, but just wasn't sure who actually got the notice?

 

[banzai75]

There was no official cancellation from aulani. I asked for an email and they said they didn’t and won’t send any out.

I just used aulani screenshots

 

[Dracula]

For those of you that have had rentals, how did you get your official cancellation? We are booked for mid- June at Aulani and Hawaii has extended its 14 day visitor quarantine through the end of June. I have travel insurance and was going to make a claim (I figure I have nothing to lose) with AIG and see if they would accept it before then trying a credit card claim. I called to find out what documentation they need, and they want the cancellation notification from the resort. Do you get that from David's? I know they are cancelling about a week out, so I won't get mine for another couple of weeks, but just wasn't sure who actually got the notice?

There is no cancelation message - the reservation magically disappears from the dashboard, just like the coronavirus is supposed to disappear one day. I can imaging it is going to be difficult to prove how the reservation got canceled. Screenshots are a good idea, and you may want to include as well a screenshot with Disney's notification that DVC reservations would be canceled one week ahead.

 

[AnnieMouseMom]

Hello all,

Im writing for some clarification. As an owner who rented points to a family, whose vacation was cancelled in May, my preference would have been to work directly with the owners to work something out. Am I correct in reading that if my points are now re-rented, they are subject to a new contract putting liability on me to refund money? I certainly don't want to screw over the renters, but I will not agree to terms of a new contract that puts liability on me. Trying to let my conscience be my guide, but it seems to me that requesting me to refund money to him, but not offering cash refunds to his renters puts me in a situation to look like the "bad guy". Any stipulation out there that says I can't contact the renters directly and work something out? My fear would be that he starts renting out the contracts that expire soonest, and my points maybe being rented last minute, or maybe not at all?? Then would he try and come after my $$ at that time?

I just want to say that, as a renter, I don't see you as the bad guy! I don't think there's a stipulation that says you can't contact the renter.

 

[AnnieMouseMom]

View attachment 495454

Wow! I'm keeping my fingers crossed my claim resolves in the same way!

 

[AnnieMouseMom]

So update/looking for advice: I just got an email from David's finally offer the voucher. But I do not want the voucher (for all the reasons others have complained about it). Do you think it's worth following up with Chase to say we got the voucher and found it unacceptable? Or is my claim stronger if I don't send this information? (Note: I already submitted 30 pages of documentation that basically say, "Here is the original contract. It says if the accommodations can't be provided, then I'm due a refund. Also, here are the many emails I exchanged with David's basically telling me I had no options because they aren't even doing vouchers for my dates of travel, despite the fact that Disney remains closed indefinitely."