Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Amymouse13]

The way I view it, and we may disagree, you did a rental for a particular party for a particular amount of points. David can't randomly now give you a new renter. In my mind, you are tied to the old renter under the original agreement, those are the terms of what you agree to.

If David wants you to rent your points to a new renter that (in my mind) requires a new agreement

I believe my contract as a renter explicitly listed the owner's names with whom I had contract...


As an aside and really off topic, I've learned so much contract law reading these past 108 or pages... Heck I've read my Montessori contract and their handbook and hot dang nothing about closures and still paying! Force majeure, frustrated contracts, who said you don't learn new things during a pandemic and maybe save some money!

Btw so yes, Bank of America corporate credit card we had to call to file dispute and they quickly put required forms to sign in our account. We attached underlined contract and an email from David's saying our reservation was cancelled (back when he thought about doing things differently to have owner rebook)

Citibank cc let me do online and just a few questions. Currently says they have contacted David's and they have til June 14 or so to respond. I presume they will ask for more but IDK...

We put in dispute back in March for our April 18-26 split stay (why two cc). Both reservations were cancelled by April 1.

 

[Bowen Family]

Question for renters on here: how and when did you receive your cancellation notice for your rented DVC reservation?

Our May 10 check-in date still appears in our plans, even though Disney last week cancelled our FP and dining reservations. Starting to think we’re not going in May. Ha ha.

But seriously, what notice should I expect about the room cancellation? Does it come from Disney straight to my Disney account and/or email? Or to the owner, who forwards it to David’s, who then forwards it on to us?

 

[Sandisw]

Question for renters on here: how and when did you receive your cancellation notice for your rented DVC reservation?

Our May 10 check-in date still appears in our plans, even though Disney last week cancelled our FP and dining reservations. Starting to think we’re not going in May. Ha ha.

But seriously, what notice should I expect about the room cancellation? Does it come from Disney straight to my Disney account and/or email? Or to the owner, who forwards it to David’s, who then forwards it on to us?

I don’t think DVC has canceled that far out yet, They are on a different timetable then Disney, They are doing it week to week and believe just starting on those the first week in May

DVC is not sending out emails to owners, The owner will see it disappear from their account when it is canceled,

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

As an aside and really off topic, I've learned so much contract law reading these past 108 or pages... Heck I've read my Montessori contract and their handbook and hot dang nothing about closures and still paying! Force majeure, frustrated contracts, who said you don't learn new things during a pandemic and maybe save some money!

Don't forget about Illinois consumer protection laws overriding terms and conditions of the contract altogether.

 

[starry_solo]

This goes back to the fundamental problem that David has on his hands...

The renter didn't cancel, but they didn't get the reservation they paid for... so they are due a refund from David's.

The owner didn't cancel either and has a contract stating that they get paid whether the renter checks in or not... so technically, they are due the remaining 30% of the payment and don't have an obligation to return money to David's because they fulfilled the terms of the contract they have with him.

Some may argue that Disney closing counts because it was "on the owner's behalf." But the owner's contract with David's says that their obligation is that THEY don't cancel the reservation, or cause it to be cancelled due to their negligence (defaulting on MF payment, loan, etc.). Disney closing the resorts due to a pandemic is not negligence on the owner's part.

Things are further complicated by the convoluted 3-way contract which doesn't make the owner accountable to the renter, but to David's. Under normal circumstances, if an owner cancelled someone's reservation, they owe the money back to David's per their contract with him. David's owes a refund to the renter per his contract with them. The owner is not refunding the renter, David's is... because that's who they paid.

If the contract David's had with owners was better written, it wouldn't be in question whether they were obligated to return the 70% deposit they were paid and David's should have been able to use those funds to refund 100% of renters.

One thing is for certain... if rental brokers survive this, they will re-write their contracts to avoid being stuck holding the bag if something like this ever happens again.

They need to rewrite the contracts and make them one single contract

 

[suemom2kay]

It was for April 18-25th.

Oh... so that's already been cancelled by Disney. My money is on you getting your money!

 

[Amymouse13]

They need to rewrite the contracts and make them one single contract

I don't think so as then why does David's exist... Though I'm sure many of us wonder that each day... Like he's the middle man so if he's out of contract...

I don't think this will be simple for him to rewrite, sure he can say renter no refunds no matter what blah blah, owners do what if resort is closed, keep the points and the money? Or David gets both sides? Lol. If owners don't get 70% upfront then why rent, if they have to return if closed regardless if points expire why rent, and why would a renter really want if there reservation was cancelled for any reason or by any person no refunds? No thanks...

If we ever get to go back... I'm not renting points

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Question for renters on here: how and when did you receive your cancellation notice for your rented DVC reservation?

Our May 10 check-in date still appears in our plans, even though Disney last week cancelled our FP and dining reservations. Starting to think we’re not going in May. Ha ha.

But seriously, what notice should I expect about the room cancellation? Does it come from Disney straight to my Disney account and/or email? Or to the owner, who forwards it to David’s, who then forwards it on to us?

I never received an email about my canceled reservation from Disney, or David's. Mine was cancelled several weeks ago for a 4/18 check in.

 

[Sammie]

Ultimately the renter is the member's guest and the member assumes responsibility of that room and consequently any damages or unpaid charges. I have always known that brokers provide more convenience than security and renters and members are naive to think otherwise. We rent beach condos all the time dealing directly with owners. If I were to ever rent my points, I would never use a broker.

 

[McCrae]

I don't think so as then why does David's exist... Though I'm sure many of us wonder that each day... Like he's the middle man so if he's out of contract...

I don't think this will be simple for him to rewrite, sure he can say renter no refunds no matter what blah blah, owners do what if resort is closed, keep the points and the money? Or David gets both sides? Lol. If owners don't get 70% upfront then why rent, if they have to return if closed regardless if points expire why rent, and why would a renter really want if there reservation was cancelled for any reason or by any person no refunds? No thanks...

If we ever get to go back... I'm not renting points

The large discount over rack rates will have some people willing to take the risk that another pandemic type event won't occur again.

 

[meryll83]

My credit card company are now saying up to 45 days before they’ll be in touch with me just to get some more detail regarding my payment dispute, before even actually getting it submitted!

Thinking my travel insurance might be the way forward as, (in theory) they have shorter timescales... even if I would lose a small excess fee on the claim.

However, part of what the insurance claim guidance mentions is required as evidence is a cancellation invoice. I don’t think I can get this from David’s without choosing their option 2, and that leaves me completely empty handed if the insurance claim doesn’t go through...

 

[Bearval]

Ultimately the renter is the member's guest and the member assumes responsibility of that room and consequently any damages or unpaid charges. I have always known that brokers provide more convenience than security and renters and members are naive to think otherwise. We rent beach condos all the time dealing directly with owners. If I were to ever rent my points, I would never use a broker.

I total agree here, a company such as David's in my own opinion is charging a huge " finders fee" for matching your points up with a renter, after that you do a lot of the work by booking the room, DDP, Disney transportation, making changes if necessary and assuming the risks involved if this person unknown to you damages the property where costs are involved. I think if I need to rent points it will be to family and friends I trust.

 

[Henwen88]

David's advertises "security" and "simplicity" for the Owner. The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill. The Owner doesn't have to find a Renter. The Owner doesn't have to deal with a Renter who wants to change their reservation. The Owner doesn't have to worry that the Renter will somehow reverse the transaction. For an Owner, the only thing they need to do is make the reservation, maybe order DDP, pay their dues, not cancel the reservation, and get paid by David's. All of these are points that David's advertises in order to get Owners to rent their points through him. For this, David's collects $4.50 per point as a commission, which is about 25% of the total paid by the Renter. Owners view the commission as high, but not for the "security" and "simplicity" that David's advertises for them.

If David's re-wrote his contract to make the Owner's payment reversible in the event of a Force Majeure or resort closure, his business would be done because no Owner will rent through him because his claim of "security" would be bogus.

I expect most of this are moot arguments, since David's has so incompetently handled the present situation and angered so many Owners that he is likely done as a company.

Very well put. These are my same thoughts, and I have rented points both privately and through David's in the past. I did a transfer last year instead and that was much better than either rental method... points gone, money in bank, hands washed of transaction

 

[Henwen88]

The Owner doesn't have to worry about a Renter trashing a room or leaving with an unpaid bill.
It might not be entirely true but the renter has to provide their own credit card for charges and has been checked in on their own and in person. As far as unpaid bills the credit card is charged at least daily (by summary not by asking). I don't see a scenario where an unpaid bill becomes an owner issue. Cash customers can damage as well and as far as I know the association (owners) have never paid for that damage. Maybe be Disney picks it up, to the extent it happens which would be something to think about if it happened. But I have never heard of this occuring.

They run a hold, but do not charge the cards until a certain threshold is met. So, in theory, a renter can leave a balance if there is an issue processing the final bill.

DVC would freeze an owners account until they get the guest to settle. Same with room damages.

My understanding is the broker would help the owner in the sense they would work with the renter to settle things up, but ultimately, owners are held liable for guests, and if they can’t get them to pay, an owner has to or be locked out of using their membership,

Years ago, I read a few posts in which this happened, and owners were forced to settle because they couldn’t get a renter to make good. It is rare though.

That's actually not true (in my experience). I rented points to a friend/co-worker. Apparently, the cc they had for room charges had expired so they ended up with a large bill that went unpaid. I had no clue (using my points normally) until months later (maybe 8 or so) when she was having issues with her credit report and let it slip. They eventually made good with Disney, and I no longer rent to them, but if I wouldn't have found out on the renter's side, who knows if I would have ever learned of the situation from DVC.

 

[Bowen Family]

However, part of what the insurance claim guidance mentions is required as evidence is a cancellation invoice. I don’t think I can get this from David’s without choosing their option 2, and that leaves me completely empty handed if the insurance claim doesn’t go through...

I’m still weighing my options and wondering also about proof of cancellation. So far the only thing we’ve decided for certain is that we will never select Option #2.

Honestly, I’d really like to put my faith in Option #1, but it’s so one-sided and leaves the renter paying the same amount for FAR more risk than the original contract. At this point, I can’t see myself renting points ever again without knowing the expiry status of what I’m renting, and an agreement to work with the owner to reschedule within their expiry window in the event of a resort closure.

Consumers of these rented points simply need more information to make informed decisions. But these options aren’t that. This is a take it or leave it offer, and even the ‘take it’ option can leave you with nothing. So for us it’s take a leap of faith with Option #1 or start a claim with our CC company. But definitely not Option #2!

 

[suemom2kay]

I’m still weighing my options and wondering also about proof of cancellation. So far the only thing we’ve decided for certain is that we will never select Option #2.

Honestly, I’d really like to put my faith in Option #1, but it’s so one-sided and leaves the renter paying the same amount for FAR more risk than the original contract. At this point, I can’t see myself renting points ever again without knowing the expiry status of what I’m renting, and an agreement to work with the owner to reschedule within their expiry window in the event of a resort closure.

Consumers of these rented points simply need more information to make informed decisions. But these options aren’t that. This is a take it or leave it offer, and even the ‘take it’ option can leave you with nothing. So for us it’s take a leap of faith with Option #1 or start a claim with our CC company. But definitely not Option #2!

A screenshot of Disney’s COVID message stating that all resorts are closed should suffice. It’s not a mystery that everything is closed. Alternatively, you have your confirmation number. Plug it into MDE and you should get a message that reservation is not found. HTH.

 

[suemom2kay]

The large discount over rack rates will have some people willing to take the risk that another pandemic type event won't occur again.

At David’s $19pp, is not much of a discount and can often be more (especially for 1 bedrooms). With a 25% or 30% discount from CRO. David’s is over $100 MORE than CRO per night for a 1 bedroom August 2020.

 

[Bowen Family]

A screenshot of Disney’s COVID message stating that all resorts are closed should suffice. It’s not a mystery that everything is closed. Alternatively, you have your confirmation number. Plug it into MDE and you should get a message that reservation is not found. HTH.

Funny, saving screenshots is exactly what we’ve been doing so far! Our check in is/was May 10 so it still shows up in MDE. I’ll take your good advice for searching the res # once it disappears from our account. Thanks!

 

[Sandisw]

That's actually not true (in my experience). I rented points to a friend/co-worker. Apparently, the cc they had for room charges had expired so they ended up with a large bill that went unpaid. I had no clue (using my points normally) until months later (maybe 8 or so) when she was having issues with her credit report and let it slip. They eventually made good with Disney, and I no longer rent to them, but if I wouldn't have found out on the renter's side, who knows if I would have ever learned of the situation from DVC.

That is indeed a big change. Thank you for correcting me as that used to be the policy.

 

[meryll83]

A screenshot of Disney’s COVID message stating that all resorts are closed should suffice. It’s not a mystery that everything is closed. Alternatively, you have your confirmation number. Plug it into MDE and you should get a message that reservation is not found. HTH.

Thanks for the advice, will go and take a screenshot....
EDIT - where do I find the David’s message that the resorts are closed, I can’t see it?

Unfortunately we were booked at VGC at Disneyland who I understand don’t use the same reservation system...