Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[suemom2kay]

CC Dispute update. My CC issuer has asked me to provide a detailed email showing that my reservation was canceled (I just did a screenshot of Aulani's website showing all reservations will be automatically canceled for DVC) and why I am requesting a dispute (should be obvious, I didn't cancel, I didn't get an product, I paid a considerable chunk of change). I also did a screenshot of the portion of the contract stating that a renter will be due a refund if no suitable accomodations can be given, and the blanket email that said "hey we will get back to you" which they never did after I asked about my reservation being potentially canceled. I made sure to mention that David's is not offering any cash refunds. I didn't say anything about the voucher because I don't want to further complicate matters, and the voucher is an entirely new contract that I did not agree to (still sitting in my inbox being ignored right now). Anyone else hear anything from their CC companies?

I think you have a very good shot. When is your reservation for?

 

[suemom2kay]

However, as I reported earlier in the thread - a good friend of mine was not paid his 30% balance by David when the resort was open and the parks were closed. I do not know what happened in that situation with this renter (and my friend the owner). Didn't make much sense to me.

This is another case where it boggles the mind that David won't work with both parties. So did the renter cancel the reservation or just not show. If they cancelled, Disney is currently extending those points. If the renter could go prior to point expiration, you have resolution for all involved. If he's not willing to work with anyone both the renter and owner lose in this situation. It just boggles the mind.

 

[VeroGuy]

Has anyone accepted the voucher yet? If so, is the voucher for the entire amount you sent David’s or is it for the entire amount minus David’s commission? Just curious.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

This is another case where it boggles the mind that David won't work with both parties. So did the renter cancel the reservation or just not show. If they cancelled, Disney is currently extending those points. If the renter could go prior to point expiration, you have resolution for all involved. If he's not willing to work with anyone both the renter and owner lose in this situation. It just boggles the mind.

This is another illustration of how complicated this situation is. I would add that, if the resorts were open (which is what I thought the PP reported) and the renter was a no-show, then the renter should not be due a refund (voucher or otherwise) and the owner should have received the remaining 30% on the date of check-in per their contracts.

I don't see how David's can possibly treat a no-show while resorts were open the same as renters not having a reservation because the resorts were closed. Unless I misunderstood the scenario, David's clearly owes the owner their 30% and the renter is not due a refund in this instance. The contract was not "frustrated" or "invalidated" if resorts were open and the renter did not check in. In fact, his contract explicitly states that, under those circumstances, the owner gets the remaining 30% and the "no cancellations" clause would apply to the renter.

If David's wants to be magnanimous and refund the renter anyway, that's his prerogative. But not with the money he owes the owner in this case.

 

[cm8]

Has anyone accepted the voucher yet? If so, is the voucher for the entire amount you sent David’s or is it for the entire amount minus David’s commission? Just curious.

I wish we could get a definitive answer on that being that it specifically states the voucher has Zero cash value?? How do you assign values to an item that is worth zero?

 

[Bing Showei]

CC Dispute update. My CC issuer has asked me to provide a detailed email showing that my reservation was canceled (I just did a screenshot of Aulani's website showing all reservations will be automatically canceled for DVC) and why I am requesting a dispute (should be obvious, I didn't cancel, I didn't get an product, I paid a considerable chunk of change). I also did a screenshot of the portion of the contract stating that a renter will be due a refund if no suitable accomodations can be given, and the blanket email that said "hey we will get back to you" which they never did after I asked about my reservation being potentially canceled. I made sure to mention that David's is not offering any cash refunds. I didn't say anything about the voucher because I don't want to further complicate matters, and the voucher is an entirely new contract that I did not agree to (still sitting in my inbox being ignored right now). Anyone else hear anything from their CC companies?

These were the explicit instructions from David's to me, as an owner, on how to handle a pending reservation during closure:

(SNIP)

At this time we are asking that you do not cancel the reservation and let Disney do this on their own. We completely understand the inability to pay back the deposit that was sent to you back in ******* 2019.

Once this reservation is officially canceled by Disney, the points will be returned to you on a case-by-case basis. Some Owners points have been moved forward, some have not. Once we are able to determine the official expiry date of these points, we can further discuss the re-rental process.

(SNIP)

Sincerely,
*******

This communication is important for two reasons.

One, David's is providing explicit instruction for owners to allow Disney to proceed with a cancellation of the reservation.

Two, David's is differentiating the actions of DVCMC in cancelling the reservation from an owner in terms of the cancellation process.

Point one is important for renters as it shows that at this point that David’s foresaw a cancellation and provided instructions to owners to allow this process to occur. If followed, these actions reduce David’s exposure to a contract breach with the renter (as opposed to owners cancelling on their own).

It would be helpful if other owners can confirm similar instructions were sent to them.

 

[cvjw]

However, as I reported earlier in the thread - a good friend of mine was not paid his 30% balance by David when the resort was open and the parks were closed. I do not know what happened in that situation with this renter (and my friend the owner). Didn't make much sense to me.

I had a renter checking in on the 15th of March. The resorts were open the whole stay and the parks were open for part of the stay. David’s did not want to pay me the remaining 30%. I noticed late in the day that they had not paid me. When I called them, they said they may pay me in a few days. I told them I was done with them if they didn’t pay and to check and see how many of my points they had rented out. They paid about an hour later. If this was my first rental with them, I suspect the results would have been different.

I also had a renter who chose to leave Disney early, while the resorts were still open. They wanted me to refund them for the nights they weren’t at Disney, even though no points came back to me. I said no.

 

[lovethesun12]

I had a renter checking in on the 15th of March. The resorts were open the whole stay and the parks were open for part of the stay. David’s did not want to pay me the remaining 30%. I noticed late in the day that they had not paid me. When I called them, they said they may pay me in a few days. I told them I was done with them if they didn’t pay and to check and see how many of my points they had rented out. They paid about an hour later. If this was my first rental with them, I suspect the results would have been different.

I also had a renter who chose to leave Disney early, while the resorts were still open. They wanted me to refund them for the nights they weren’t at Disney, even though no points came back to me. I said no.

As a renter not an owner, I think it was very unfair to even ask you for that.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

I think you have a very good shot. When is your reservation for?

It was for April 18-25th.

 

[YourEveryDayAdam]

My friend did and David won't. At least the was how it was left off at the end of March. I think my friend and David are at a stalemate.

That's the kind of thing that is REALLY going to scare off a lot of owners from using David's in the future. I have not used David's to rent out my points, but I was keeping his service in my back pocket in case I ever had some points that I wouldn't be able to use for some reason...But now, I don't think I would be using David's...

I kind-of-get the argument that the owner "cancelled the reservation via Disney doing it and Disney is acting as the owner's agent" kind of thing...and David's wanting their money back or refusing to pay the 30% based on the reservation being actually cancelled.

But for David's to make that argument as a basis for refusing to pay the owner their 30% and then turn around to the RENTERS and make almost the exact OPPOSITE argument while refusing to refund the renter is certainly contradictory. David's is trying to have his cake, and eat it too. Going to the renters and, essentially, saying the owner didn't cancel your reservation...Disney did...so you aren't due a refund...but out of the graciousness of our hearts, we will let you rebook at some point in the future (* - some restrictions apply). He is arguing both sides of the coin to the different parties to the transaction and making the argument to each party that is most beneficial to David's.

If I were an owner, I would be okay if David's didn't pay me the 30%. I understand a lot of owners don't agree with this, but I would be okay with it. It's a situation that is literally hitting EVERYONE and I think it's fair for that pain to be felt equally. If he didn't pay me the remaining 30%, I would consider the points mine, at that point, to use as I see fit...him paying me his original 70% is actually pretty darned close to 50% of the total amount of money he collected from the renter.

I would then attempt to work with David's to reasonably re-rent the points as best I could within the restrictions that are on those SPECIFIC points (use years, expiration, banking, borrowing, etc.) If I re-rented, I would want the remaining 30% right away...not at check in... and I would consider that the points would belong to David's for him to use for the benefit of the renters...he could cancel, re-rent to more renters, etc...I wouldn't care...again within the usage limitations of those specific points.

If he couldn't find a renter within a reasonable amount of time before points expire or I couldn't bank them, etc...then I would just book a reservation for myself, upgrade one of my own reservations, RCI deposit, or gift them to a friend/family member and walk away.

Since Disney extended points expiration on reservations that were cancelled due to COVID, then it's a lot easier to work with David's on re-renting or to better plan for using the points myself.

If David's is ALSO refusing to pay owners their 30% for that weird period around where the parks were closed but resorts were open, then that is COMPLETE BS...IF that's true, I would DEFINITELY not rent my points through David's ever again. There is literally no argument for not paying on that reservation. If David's wants to give the renters in those cases his voucher, then that is HIS prerogative, but those points would definitely be used with no recourse from DVC...he absolutely should pay those out.

 

[Dracula]

I wish we could get a definitive answer on that being that it specifically states the voucher has Zero cash value?? How do you assign values to an item that is worth zero?

Airline frequent flyer miles have zero cash value, yet airlines are very happy to let you pay cash for them. There are plenty of other things that officially have no cash value, cannot be resold or returned, yet people spend money to acquire them: votes, love, a 20% off coupon at Lowe's, a strong avatar on Fortnite, a term life insurance shortly after issue, a Tables in Wonderland discount card and so on

 

[Dracula]

That's the kind of thing that is REALLY going to scare off a lot of owners from using David's in the future. I have not used David's to rent out my points, but I was keeping his service in my back pocket in case I ever had some points that I wouldn't be able to use for some reason...But now, I don't think I would be using David's...

I kind-of-get the argument that the owner "cancelled the reservation via Disney doing it and Disney is acting as the owner's agent" kind of thing...and David's wanting their money back or refusing to pay the 30% based on the reservation being actually cancelled.

But for David's to make that argument as a basis for refusing to pay the owner their 30% and then turn around to the RENTERS and make almost the exact OPPOSITE argument while refusing to refund the renter is certainly contradictory. David's is trying to have his cake, and eat it too. Going to the renters and, essentially, saying the owner didn't cancel your reservation...Disney did...so you aren't due a refund...but out of the graciousness of our hearts, we will let you rebook at some point in the future (* - some restrictions apply). He is arguing both sides of the coin to the different parties to the transaction and making the argument to each party that is most beneficial to David's.

If I were an owner, I would be okay if David's didn't pay me the 30%. I understand a lot of owners don't agree with this, but I would be okay with it. It's a situation that is literally hitting EVERYONE and I think it's fair for that pain to be felt equally. If he didn't pay me the remaining 30%, I would consider the points mine, at that point, to use as I see fit...him paying me his original 70% is actually pretty darned close to 50% of the total amount of money he collected from the renter.

I would then attempt to work with David's to reasonably re-rent the points as best I could within the restrictions that are on those SPECIFIC points (use years, expiration, banking, borrowing, etc.) If I re-rented, I would want the remaining 30% right away...not at check in... and I would consider that the points would belong to David's for him to use for the benefit of the renters...he could cancel, re-rent to more renters, etc...I wouldn't care...again within the usage limitations of those specific points.

If he couldn't find a renter within a reasonable amount of time before points expire or I couldn't bank them, etc...then I would just book a reservation for myself, upgrade one of my own reservations, RCI deposit, or gift them to a friend/family member and walk away.

Since Disney extended points expiration on reservations that were cancelled due to COVID, then it's a lot easier to work with David's on re-renting or to better plan for using the points myself.

If David's is ALSO refusing to pay owners their 30% for that weird period around where the parks were closed but resorts were open, then that is COMPLETE BS...IF that's true, I would DEFINITELY not rent my points through David's ever again. There is literally no argument for not paying on that reservation. If David's wants to give the renters in those cases his voucher, then that is HIS prerogative, but those points would definitely be used with no recourse from DVC...he absolutely should pay those out.

David indicated to me that the balance of 30% would be paid when the new, re-rented reservation would check in. So far David has never left me with un-rented points, but these are not normal times. I guess if there are no customers, 45 days prior to expiration I would move the points to RCI.

 

[momincolorado]

These were the explicit instructions from David's to me, as an owner, on how to handle a pending reservation during closure:



This communication is important for two reasons.

One, David's is providing explicit instruction for owners to allow Disney to proceed with a cancellation of the reservation.

Two, David's is differentiating the actions of DVCMC in cancelling the reservation from an owner in terms of the cancellation process.

Point one is important for renters as it shows that at this point that David’s foresaw a cancellation and provided instructions to owners to allow this process to occur. If followed, these actions reduce David’s exposure to a contract breach with the renter (as opposed to owners cancelling on their own).

It would be helpful if other owners can confirm similar instructions were sent to them.

I spoke with Chase on this issue so this might be of interest to those with chargebacks pending. While I’m still awaiting final resolution, Chase had indicated that the “contract won’t protect them if the services or goods were not delivered.” In other words, the cc issuer here is not looking to take the contract apart, clause by clause, to see who cancelled and what it all means. They were focused on two things - that the renter did not cancel and that the reservation dates were during the resort closure period.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Same thing Chase said to me - If you paid for it and it was Not delivered you are due a refund - per Chase they can not do this.

 

[banzai75]

Same thing Chase said to me - If you paid for it and it was Not delivered you are due a refund - per Chase they can not do this.

this is very encouraging as I am with chase too!

 

[cmrdgrs]

There is just no way that any broker is going to be able to stop the chargeback process. Yes, the renter paid in full, but the renter did not cancel. So, it would seem to me the "non-refundable" part of the contract applies to the renter cancelling -- no? The contract didn't state anything about what happens when Disney cancels -- yes?

I honestly think the credit card companies are going to side with renters. The renter paid for a service/room that was not fulfilled on the date is was suppose to be fulfilled.

IMO, renters should not accept the credit voucher. I also don't understand how David can issue the renter a credit voucher without a new contractual agreement with the owner. Doesn't the owner also have to sign a new agreement with David?

 

[Dracula]

There is just no way that any broker is going to be able to stop the chargeback process. Yes, the renter paid in full, but the renter did not cancel. So, it would seem to me the "non-refundable" part of the contract applies to the renter cancelling -- no? The contract didn't state anything about what happens when Disney cancels -- yes?

I honestly think the credit card companies are going to side with renters. The renter paid for a service/room that was not fulfilled on the date is was suppose to be fulfilled.

IMO, renters should not accept the credit voucher. I also don't understand how David can issue the renter a credit voucher without a new contractual agreement with the owner. Doesn't the owner also have to sign a new agreement with David?

As an owner, I did not sign a new agreement with David - just an email exchange confirming I am willing to re-rent, and they notified me that my points are back in the queue.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

I have nothing as an Owner that cancels the agreement I have with David’s
I as a renter have an agreement that was not fulfilled
David has taken it upon himself without checking with the parties who signed these agreements to issue a voucher and now wants Owners and Renters to enter into new agreements with new people - are you kidding me? He hasn’t handle the first set of agreements correctly and now we should enter more agreements with him? As I have said I have horses in both sides of this and I’m so sorry I ever dealt with him as he is not living up to what he has advertised .

 

[disneypharm]

I was told the same thing by Chase; however, let's not get too excited yet. Although the money was put back in my account immediately, I still have to send them documents (eg, emails, contracts) before final approval. I have 2 contracts (split stay) bought several months apart. I realized that I paid each using a different credit card, so now I have to deal with 2 companies. Ugh! They have very different processes. I had to call Chase but the other cc company is by mail or fax, so it will be weeks before I hear back anything.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

There is just no way that any broker is going to be able to stop the chargeback process. Yes, the renter paid in full, but the renter did not cancel. So, it would seem to me the "non-refundable" part of the contract applies to the renter cancelling -- no? The contract didn't state anything about what happens when Disney cancels -- yes?

I honestly think the credit card companies are going to side with renters. The renter paid for a service/room that was not fulfilled on the date is was suppose to be fulfilled.

IMO, renters should not accept the credit voucher. I also don't understand how David can issue the renter a credit voucher without a new contractual agreement with the owner. Doesn't the owner also have to sign a new agreement with David?

This goes back to the fundamental problem that David has on his hands...

The renter didn't cancel, but they didn't get the reservation they paid for... so they are due a refund from David's.

The owner didn't cancel either and has a contract stating that they get paid whether the renter checks in or not... so technically, they are due the remaining 30% of the payment and don't have an obligation to return money to David's because they fulfilled the terms of the contract they have with him.

Some may argue that Disney closing counts because it was "on the owner's behalf." But the owner's contract with David's says that their obligation is that THEY don't cancel the reservation, or cause it to be cancelled due to their negligence (defaulting on MF payment, loan, etc.). Disney closing the resorts due to a pandemic is not negligence on the owner's part.

Things are further complicated by the convoluted 3-way contract which doesn't make the owner accountable to the renter, but to David's. Under normal circumstances, if an owner cancelled someone's reservation, they owe the money back to David's per their contract with him. David's owes a refund to the renter per his contract with them. The owner is not refunding the renter, David's is... because that's who they paid.

If the contract David's had with owners was better written, it wouldn't be in question whether they were obligated to return the 70% deposit they were paid and David's should have been able to use those funds to refund 100% of renters.

One thing is for certain... if rental brokers survive this, they will re-write their contracts to avoid being stuck holding the bag if something like this ever happens again.