Cut back in hours true reflection of attendance?

[cindyfan]

My expectations are REALISTIC!!!
I made a choice to go during what DISNEY deems as PEAK season. I am paying PEAK prices for the resort.

DISNEY has defined what PEAK season means and that is longer hours and more chances to see and enjoy everything!!
Look at all your marketing material......they rationalize the higher prices by advertising the extended hours, etc.

THEY laid down the rules!
THEY set the expectations!
Traditionally the days before and after Easter have the later hours so as to give the guest more chances to enjoy the attractions. And now that they have been cut......All of a sudden I find myself wondering....."WILL THERE REALLY BE ENOUGH TIME??"
We now only have ONE chance to see Spectro Magic. Will we be trampled????

We expected to be able to enjoy the parks til 11pm or midnight because that is what DISNEY has said the hours would be. This is the time of night we can hit the attractions and not feel like we will be run over by tons of strollers, etc.

Yes, during VALUE or REGULAR season we are willing to pay the $12 for E-nights because DISNEY has planned it as off-season! We rationalize the extra $12 because we are saving in the cost of the resort!

Yes we made the CHOICE to go at Peak and pay extra.....because we expect them to own up to what THEY have set as the expectations.

But for them to make me pay PEAK prices with NO DISCOUNTS and yet they are giving VALUE hours!!!!!!!!!

Something is not right!!!

It's not that the hours have been cut, it's that the hours remaining are still enough, given attendance levels, to have a very positive park experience

How can you be so sure??????????
I expected to be able to see the fireworks and parade more than once. I had planned on the 10pm showing of Fantasmic so that I would have more time for the other attractions that day!!!
They just took that away from me!!
I've never been to the character lunch at H&V....they took that away too!

It is frustrating!

Yes, they are very close to that line!!

Will it stop me from going NO.......
But I will think twice about how often I go...and where I will stay...and what time of year!!!!

It kinda makes you feel like they don't want me there

 

[Eeyore2U]

I made a choice to go during what DISNEY deems as PEAK season. I am paying PEAK prices for the resort.

Exactly. Depending on your resort IT may be full. A full resort does not mean full parks.

THEY laid down the rules!

How so?

THEY set the expectations!

I disagree. YOU set your own expectations.

Traditionally the days before and after Easter have the later hours so as to give the guest more chances to enjoy the attractions. And now that they have been cut......All of a sudden I find myself wondering....."WILL THERE REALLY BE ENOUGH TIME??"

If there are less hours Disney's recent past tell me they know the crowds will less. If we are lucky, on our trips we have one chance to see Spectro and we have yet to be trampled.

We expected to be able to enjoy the parks til 11pm or midnight because that is what DISNEY has said the hours would be. This is the time of night we can hit the attractions and not feel like we will be run over by tons of strollers, etc.

It does seem like you are a victim of your expectations. This is about smart business decisions and not what's best for you based on what you want.

Yes we made the CHOICE to go at Peak and pay extra.....because we expect them to own up to what THEY have set as the expectations.

Seem like you are a victim of your expectations again.

Something is not right!!!

Correct. Crowds are down.

I expected to be able to see the fireworks and parade more than once. I had planned on the 10pm showing of Fantasmic so that I would have more time for the other attractions that day!!!

Your expectations again. You won't know the reality until you go and see what can be done.

It kinda makes you feel like they don't want me there

I'm sorry. This takes the cake. A company makes decisions based on information only it has and it's out to keep you away. I see, they should give you the keys to the kingdom. Keep it open all hours for minimal guests. It doesn't make business sense to me. But this isn't business it's Disney and it's about everyone but them.

 

[justhat]

As to where I got the numbers of 'most' and '50%', I guessed. My point was simply that many people who will be at WDW in the near future will not notice hours shorter than originally posted since they never knew the posted hours to begin with. So they will not think they are short since they cannot compare it to anything. They might say (like most everyone says on any trip, no matter when the parks are open) that they wish they stayed open later, but they won't be thinking that they got cheated since they have no basis for comparison. And those who have been there before, many of them also fall into that category of not checking hours in advance. Sure, they might compare to their last trip. But unless the trip was the same time of year, they can't compare too much. Also, even if they do go the same time, odds are they will not remember the exact hours of the parks from their other trips. I have been there 4 times in March, app. the same week each time, and I couldn't even tell you the hours from the last March I was there (2001). And in 2001, I definitely did not think once about what the hours were in March 1996, 1989, or 1988. Maybe others did, and I wish I had that kind of memory, but most people when they go (and again, most is only a guess) will be more focused on having fun and being in Disney than comparing old hours to now. The hours are based on projected attendance, not only the season (as park hours at MK were 9am-11pm on 1/1/03, which was value season). They know best how many people will be there and they keep the parks open accordingly. They may not make everyone happy, but they are the best solution for Disney overall.

About prices, yes, I agree that if it's not peak attendance, it shouldn't be peak rates at hotels, but I realize Disney can't exactly change that. Every hotel has different rates for different seasons no matter where you go on vacation. When you go anywhere else on vacation, you pay whatever rate the room goes for, no codes, AP rates, etc. If they are having trouble filling up their rooms, another destination might offer reduced rates, but it's a little easier than Disney doing the same. When Disney offers discounts, everyone on these boards will know, so many people would be cancelling their reservation and rebooking at the cheaper rate (obviously, since no one wants to pay more than they have to). But when, say, Pointe Hilton Squaw Peak in Phoenix, AZ offers rooms at lower rates, odds are that only the people booking rooms will know of the discount, not those who have already booked. Maybe some might, but I know when I go to another vacation destination, once I get my hotel booked, I rarely check the rates again. So I'm guessing Disney isn't willing to go through all the hassle involved in making new, lower rates so close to trip dates, even though it would please many people. After all, what rate is really going to make everyone happy?? Value rates? Regular rates? And should the rates change day by day since the parks are open till 7pm some nights and 11pm the next?

 

[MulanMom]

Someone had mentioned that no one is commenting or giving Disney credit about the discounted hotel rates. In my case, hotel rates don't apply. I am DVC. For the period I am traveling, late March/early April, the points I am paying are in the second highest category...on par with President's Day weekend, Summer, and Thanksgiving. The highest level is Easter and Christmas only.

I don't get a discount on my points. I haven't the last two before this one. Thought I was safe booking at an on-season time to get on-season hours. If the parks are able to be done comfortably within the hours posted and it seems crowds are down, then it won't be so bad. However, last year's experience proved otherwise. I'm giving WDW a another chance this time around and I sincerely hope the more positive posters are correct.

 

[LSU Tigerfan]

I still don't get it. Do some of you really spend more than 12 hours a day in the parks?

Even with the reduced park hours, it's not like there won't be anything to do. Spend a little time shopping at DTD, check out the Adventurer's Club or the Boardwalk, enjoy an evening swim at your resort, take an illuminations cruise, visit another resort and try a new restaurant ... but for crying out loud enjoy yourself -- you're at Disneyworld!

I really think some of you are looking to spoil your vacations for no good reason. Some people always have to have something to complain about, and I'm hoping that you aren't one of them. Call me Pollyanna if you like, but I say that you should find something to be glad about (like the fact that the parks are going to be almost empty and you will have almost no lines at many attractions).

 

[MulanMom]

LSU Tigerfan...Y'know, this was a decent discourse until you started getting judgemental. Did I say I wasn't going to enjoy myself? For the money I'm shelling out, I will. But just because I'll make the best of a situation doesn't mean it's good. Compressing people into shortened hours makes for more crowded parks. There's a point where the crowds are manageable, then there's a point where it is not enjoyable. Last year at spring break, with supposed reduced attendance (and hours), the parks were crowded, especially MK and AK. They were not "empty".

As you pointed out, who really spends 12 hours or more in the parks? With more hours, there's a higher chance of crowds being spread out during the day. People will arrive in the am then leave after the afternoon parade, others might come in to do rides during the afternoon parade and stay until closing. A good option for parents of young children used to be going to the parks in the morning, going back to the resort midday to swim or nap, and return to the parks late afternoon until they closed. That can't be done with a tighter schedule.

Yes, there are other things to do in the World. However, with two very young children, I don't think Adventurer's Club will be much of an option. As for an Illuminations Cruise, those things are almost as hard to get as CRT bfast PSs! How is one to schedule that as an option when hours are reduced just a few weeks out? As for DTD, guess where everyone else in the world is probably going for the evening???? Sorry, my idea of vacation isn't always to be in a massive crowd. I'll put up with it for a short period of time, but I've seen WDW enough times to not need nor want to always fight crowds to do attractions. If WDW mgmt thinks every thing, everywhere must always run at close to maximum capacity, then I don't think it's being a complainer to be honest with myself and say this is not the type of vacation I want.

At this time, we are doing our family trips mostly for our kids. We've done such a good job turning them on to the magic, they now ask to return to WDW. They know nothing of cutbacks or any of the other detractions. It's up to Mom & Dad to make the trip a smooth one. WDW is just making it a bit more challenging!

If the parks are empty, I'll be dancing with joy. But the realist in me tells me to prepare for the worst so I can make the best of it.

 

[cindyfan]

Depending on your resort IT may be full. A full resort does not mean full parks.

Ok.....so if the resorts are full that means that YES, the crowds ARE there....so WHY cut the hours????

How so?

They are the ones that say....."this is our most crowded time of year. This is when more people visit. So se will extend the hours so you can see everything...... BUT we will charge you more!" An explanation I fully eccept. Yes, it's true. BUT... don't come back and tell me "we lied....but we will still charge you MORE!"

If we are lucky, on our trips we have one chance to see Spectro

Sorry, but for the money I pay....I don't rely on LUCK! I'm not going to Vegas....it's WDW and I don't GAMBLE!

I see, they should give you the keys to the kingdom. Keep it open all hours for minimal guests. It doesn't make business sense to me. But this isn't business it's Disney and it's about everyone but them.

No need for sarcasm here please!
I never said it was a bad business decision on their part.

Yes, these are my expectations.....I expect them to deliver what they said they would.

 

[JJS2K3]

Yesterday I bought a 13oz box of cereal for $3. Tomorrow I go to buy it and it's still $3 but only 11oz. Why only 11oz? Maybe less people are buying it. Or maybe the tobacco arm of the company is losing money. It doesn't matter, I'm still paying $3 for 11oz. I have two choices. 1) Lower my expectations and be happy with what I get since I really like the cereal, or 2) Buy a different cereal. Neither choice is a 'wrong' choice. What is wrong is for someone to say my expectations are too high. If people were moaning about the parks not being open untill 1AM I'd agree with people having unrealistic expectations. This is not the case.

Same box of cereal. It's 13oz of corn flakes & berries & nuts today. Tomorrow it's 11oz of corn flakes and bananas. They also added a new product that is just berries and nuts that you can sprinkle in your cereal. And they added a bunch of new cereal lines. I like bananas and wouldn't have minded them adding them but they took out the berries and nuts. If I want them I have to pay extra. The fact that there are more cereal lines now is irrelevant - I was expecting corn flakes, berries and nuts. Plenty of choices for me here, none of them wrong. It's also not wrong to be dissapointed at the cuts - adding A does not make up for cutting B&C; New parks and features you have to pay for doesn't make up for loss of value in the park your going to.

Ok, away from the cereal analogies.

LSU. maybe people with kids can't get there until a little later; or need to take mid day breaks; or maybe, yes, they spend 12 hours in the parks. Maybe they're on a strict budget and can't afford to do the peripheral stuff; maybe they don't have a lot of money and can only go for a few days every couple of years and the cut hours mean something to them. In any case, what does it have to do with cutting hours and services? Pay the same amount for less hours and services but it's OK because you can pay to get into PI or go sit by the pool? I don't understand that.

Anyway.......I have an idea............GET BACK ON TOPIC!

IMHO, there are many more factors that go into park hours then just expected park attendance. I think what is driving the park hours at this point in time is corporate earnings. I think that things that have absolutely nothing to do with WDW, Florida, war, etc. have become a big part in deciding the park hours.

 

[cindyfan]

Did I say I wasn't going to enjoy myself? For the money I'm shelling out, I will. But just because I'll make the best of a situation doesn't mean it's good. Compressing people into shortened hours makes for more crowded parks. There's a point where the crowds are manageable, then there's a point where it is not enjoyable. Last year at spring break, with supposed reduced attendance (and hours), the parks were crowded, especially MK and AK. They were not "empty".

AGREE!!!!

AND...yes, there are other things to do at WDW. and when we go "off-season" we do enjoy them. But for this trip......we planned the parks for most of the trip expecting them to be open late!!!!

JJS2K3..........You are so right!!!! every word!!!!!

 

[LSU Tigerfan]

MulanMom,

I'm sorry if I offended, because I certainly wasn't trying to be judgmental. I was only trying to point out that so much of how you enjoy a vacation depends on your attitude toward it.

You make a good point about longer hours spreading out the crowds. That's what makes it so likely that crowds will be very small -- there is no way that WDW would be cutting back hours otherwise. WDW knows how many bookings they have and they can project how many cancellations they are going to have.

I know that there are many people like my grandmother, who just told me this weekend that "it isn't safe to go anywhere by plane right now because somebody's going to try to blow them up again once the war starts." Personally, I disagree with that statement, but I know that my grandmother's view is shared by many people who would otherwise go to WDW.

It's only common sense to realize that WDW attendance will be much lower over the next few months because of the Iraq situation. Add to that the weak economy, and I'm surprised WDW's cutbacks haven't been even greater.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by raidermatt
But this is not how a business can view the world, even the fantasy-laden WDW. Customers and potential customers exist along a continuum of "how willing" they are to spend their money on your product. At one end you have people who are very willing and would even spend much more, or accept much less. That's you and me.

At the other end, there are people who "wouldn't go if you paid me". Everybody else exists somewhere in between.

I think you're right, but we differ on how the "cuts" affect all of the "in betweens." My guess is that they don't really notice them.

I think Disney's choices can still be justified as rational business decisions. Actively managing the hours, managing the opening and closing of marginal attractions like Timekeeper, closing a dated and underused facility like River Country won't lessen the "Disney Magic" for any but the most obsessed (like us). Sure, satisfying repeat customers is good business, but at some point the marginal costs of satisfying the marginal demanding repeat customer are not worthwhile. After all, it's the nuts like us who get the code rates, buy APs (and get max value out of them), have a cooler in our room (rather than paying $10/night for a fridge) filled with sodas bought cheap offsite, already have a ton of souvenirs, etc. The big bucks are to be made on those "in-betweens" who pay full price for rooms, buy the UPHs, and buy tons of souvenirs.

As for MGM and AK, neither of these were "full price" to me when they opened---we always had a parkhopper pass, so if we went to the Studios for just 1/2 day, it was just like having a whole new section added to MK. And then they grew and grew.

Again, I think you discount the additions. I loved Hunchback, but although it was gone when I visited last December, I had Playhouse Disney and Millionaire as new attractions. And Fastpass greatly improved our experience, particularly with a 2yo who wouldn't have been great waiting in line. And, as noted heavily here, the characters are now everywhere.

Also, going to AKL for breakfast on our arrival day burned up a few hours (look at the displays, watch the animals, watch my son play in the playground) without having to do a park admission, so it added to my "value," even though I had to come out of pocket for the breakfast and some Afro-Disney merchandise at the AKL store.

You're probably right that if you put the "cuts" in one category and the "adds" in the other, the cuts might be more in number; however, my belief is that the overall experience for all of those "in-between" customers hasn't really been diminished at all--in fact, in total, it's been enhanced.

 

[cindyfan]

but we differ on how the "cuts" affect all of the "in betweens." My guess is that they don't really notice them.

I tend to disagree here! I have 3 co-workers that are going this spring. One is like me, goes alot, "knows the ropes" so to speak. But the other 2 are first-timers. Let me tell you...they are definitely doing their homework!!! And when they get down there and realize that there is no night-time parade because the hours are short.....or their 5yo DD can't see Beauty and the Beast because it isn't scheduled the day they planned MGM......
If Disney is looking for the "repeat guest" they are going about it the wrong way!

 

[raidermatt]

If there are less hours Disney's recent past tell me they know the crowds will less. If we are lucky, on our trips we have one chance to see Spectro and we have yet to be trampled.

Mitch, you know I respect your opinions, but there has been an overall downward trend, regardless of what attendance does. When attendance was booming a few years ago, hours were being cut in small amounts. Now that things are bad, the hours are being slashed. Yes, they make minor last-minute adjustements, but the trends I'm talking about are much bigger than an hour here or an hour there.

This is the same philosophy that is guiding all major decisions.

Also, even if they do go the same time, odds are they will not remember the exact hours of the parks from their other trips.

They don't have to. One of the things many people consider "magical" about the Disney parks, is the nightime experience there. Those that went several years ago will have this memory, and their current and future visits will fall short in this regard.

I still don't get it. Do some of you really spend more than 12 hours a day in the parks?

Maybe I can help with the understanding portion. Yes, some probably would spend more than 12 hours in the parks if they could. But beyond that, some folks like to arrive early for EE, or at park opening. Many of these people probably don't care as much about closing time. However, some of them do like to take mid-afternoon breaks, then come back for he nightime atmosphere, with rested children. By closing earlier, the ability to take that break, and to experience the nightime atmosphere, is diminished.

Further, there are many people who do not want to wake-up at 7am, and instead prefer to sleep in, and arrive at the parks later in the morning, or even around Noon. These folks are impacted by earlier closing times as well. They also miss the nightime atmosphere, and they maybe compelled to arrive earlier than they really want to, making them a bit less satisfied, and also making the earlier hours more crowded than they otherwise would have been.

Also, with shorter hours, the ability to "park-hop" is diminished.

It maybe that none of these factors are important to you, but hopefully you can understand how they might be important to others. Further, Disney must at least consider these impacts, as any decrease in guest satisfaction will show-up in their bottom line, potentially for years to come.

That's what makes it so likely that crowds will be very small -- there is no way that WDW would be cutting back hours otherwise.

Look at my comments to Eeyore. There is a very real downward trend.

It's only common sense to realize that WDW attendance will be much lower over the next few months because of the Iraq situation. Add to that the weak economy, and I'm surprised WDW's cutbacks haven't been even greater.

True, but a business must still meet its customers' expectations. If not, it only makes matters worse today, and in the future.

I think Disney's choices can still be justified as rational business decisions.

I'm not saying they are irrational. Only that they are frequently not in the best long-term intrests of the business.

You're probably right that if you put the "cuts" in one category and the "adds" in the other, the cuts might be more in number; however, my belief is that the overall experience for all of those "in-between" customers hasn't really been diminished at all--in fact, in total, it's been enhanced.

Fair enough. We can agree to disagree

 

[LSU Tigerfan]

<i>

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Believe me, if Disney expected to have a reasonable number of people in the parks for a certain time of day, the parks would be open at that time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then please explain why hours in Oct-Dec '02 were shorter than in Oct-Dec '01, despite higher attendance?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With so many people paralyzed by the threat of terrorists and war, tightened security at airports making plane travel more inconvenient and ever rising gas prices, people just aren't taking long, faraway vacations like they did in the 90's.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hours were being cut BEFORE the boom ended. This is yet to be addressed by anybody in this thread.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To say that people will stop coming to WDW because the hours are cut is ridiculous. I would say about 50% of all visitors do not even know what the hours will be before they get there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So then why not cut them to 3pm?</i>

Raidermatt, your last post was reasoned and thoughtful, but I still think there are some things worth considering that we haven't discussed.

It would cost WDW revenue to cut the hours back to 3pm because of the lines it would generate. WDW doesn't make any money when you are standing in line. Disney makes money when you are going through rides quickly and are spending more time shopping and eating. That's why Fastpass resulted in a big jump in revenue for WDW. That's also why WDW has extended hours at busy times -- to spread out the crowds so that you can buy more souvenirs. (MK is still closing at 10 or 11 pm every night during Easter week, for example)

I know that it's popular on these boards to portray WDW as a mean, corporate entity that doesn't care about its guests and has lost touch with once made WDW special; but that portrayal doesn't hold water in this case. WDW isn't going to cut off its nose to spite its face, which is why we can feel confident that cutbacks in hours reflect projections of substantially lower attendance. If enough people were coming, the parks would be open later.

I believe that the only reason that the hours haven't been cut even more is that Disney has agreements with its employees guaranteeing them a certain number of hours per week. That's also probably why the parks stayed open for relatively long hours in Oct-Dec of 2001, when crowds were extremely low after 9/11.

Finally, I don't think the opportunity to experience WDW at night has been significantly diminished. Epcot is always open at night, and MK is open until 10 pm for much of April. For those going this month, there are E-nights available for a very low cost considering the value of enjoying the rides without lines. This logic also applies to families that want to take afternoon naps and then come back to the parks.

 

[cindyfan]

(MK is still closing at 10 or 11 pm every night during Easter week, for example)

NO, sorry not true. That is my point....Wed they close at 10 and Thurs at 11pm. BUT Friday at 7pm and Sat at 8pm!!! that is before sun-down!!!!!!! yet it is still Easter week and considered "peak" season.

Finally, I don't think the opportunity to experience WDW at night has been significantly diminished.

Again....not true...It HAS been diminished. When they close before sun-down there is NO "opportunity to experience WDW at night"! I really don't want to be forced to go to Epcot EVERY night we are there because that is the only park open.

If I wanted "value" season hours....I would go during "value' season.

If they are going to cut back hours, attractions, character meals, etc.....then they need to cut prices!

 

[Gaiusrex]

I'm not sure if "peak" is intended to mean "more value". In many commercial recreational/travel places, you get charged more if you go during a more desireable time. You don't necessarily get more for your money; you get the privilege of going at a certain time of year.

Edit: bekuz I cant spelll

 

[LSU Tigerfan]

Cindyfan,

Sorry, I think we were on different wavelengths. By "Easter week," I meant the week leading up to Easter, while you obviously mean the week after.

 

[montessori]

I think Cindyfan has every right to be upset and I agree with RaiderMatt.
There has been a steady decline in the total "magical experience" of a Disney World vacation.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to join in on the discussion.
I'm packing to drive up to Disney World in the morning!

 

[cindyfan]

Unfortunately, I don't have time to join in on the discussion. I'm packing to drive up to Disney World in the morning!

AWESOME!!!!
Hope you have a great trip! Be careful driving and Hope the weather is great for you!

By the way......let us know what the crowds are like when you get back!! LOL

 

[All Aboard]

Gaiusrex, the use of "peak" and "value" are Disney's lables for two of their four seasons. You are right, "peak" is more desirable, and more people are there than during "value" season. The poster just expects they when she's paying "peak" rates, that she gets "peak" hours.

WDW has outpaced the downturn in attendance with hours cuts. By that I mean that when attendance goes down x%, they cut hours by MORE than x%. RaiderMatt and I have done plenty of hours analyses in the past year. Overall in 2002, guests were down 6%, but we found in many months that hours were down 25% v. prior year. And, it was noted that during the 4th quarter of 2002, attendance was UP v. the prior year, yet hours were down significantly.

In general, it's a bad customer service decision to respond to reduced travel by cutting hours. But, I'm almost willing to accept that. HOWEVER, WDW has gone well beyond that. The hours cuts don't match the attendance change, they are far greater than it.

My personal experience was a very packed MK this last weekend. It was packed in part because WDW had opted to run Spectro just Saturday night, only once that night and on a night when MK closed at 8pm. Heck, MK quite often stays open until 9 or 10 on Saturdays during VALUE season. Last November (14 months after 9/11) we got to see Spectro twice on a Saturday night. Crowds were moderate, and it made for a great day at MK. This past weekend was unenjoyable. Fastpass was an absolute neccesity and was running out very fast. This weekend was a prime example of where WDW needed to extend hours in light of the crowds, but they didn't.

I wonder how much the fact that Help Me I'm a Celebrity (or whatever that trash is called) finishing dead last in the ratings for the ungodly period of time that ran it night after night is contributing to this WDW mess???

I suspect that taken on its own, WDW would be quite profitable with "old days" hours but the fact that it has to nurse it's ailing brethren (ABC, GO.Com, the $5.3billion ABC Family Channel) is why we are getting dealt the hand we are.