Crying it out?

[chobie]

Actually CIO is a fairly recent phenomenon. In the "olden" days people used to sleep with their children. My Italian grandmother believed in co-sleeping and extended breast feeding. She was born in 1896 and was quite strict in all areas of child raising. Also, most of the cultures in this world that are not as "progressive" as ours practice co-sleeping and child wearing and their children are allowed access to mommy and to nurse 24 hours a day.

So I agree with you, the old fashioned methods are the best way to go.

 

[MayMom]

I am quite strict, my kids are well mannered, and sleep all night in their rooms. I was not a big family bed person after about 6 months of age, and I never used cio. AP does not=permissive.

Okay Kidshop - what's your secret - How did you get your kids to go to their bed, sleep ALL night, and not cry at 6 months? I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I really am interested, because I would love to learn a method that didn't involve these screaming fits. I just don't think there is a way to make my 16 month old stay in her bed all night without some crying. I have tried sitting next to her bed, which made her try frantically to get out. I also have a concrete routine in place every night. She has a blankie and I'm going to try a fan for white noise. I can't get in her bed because she is still in a crib. What did you do differently?
Thanks in advance - I need all the advice I can get!!

 

[kidshop]

Well, my first ds has been abnormal since birth LOL! It's just his personality, he's very laid back and easy going and never needed me much! Even when he was sick, and I would WANT to sleep in his room with him, he would tell me he was ok and I could leave now; at 2 years old! So I can't take any credit for him, he came that way. I wish I had him second, though, since ds2 was very different! He didn't sleep through until he was done with teething at around 16 months. He woke up at least once a night an just needed me to sit with him for a while. It wasn't until later that I figured out it was connected to teething. I'm glad I went in. The No Cry Sleep Solution is a good plan, and I do like the SuperNanny's method of staying in the room and moving father away each night, eventually out the door. It takes time for these to work so it's no quick fix, but it is fixable even if you never leave your baby to cry alone. I'm out the door now, but I'll post more later. Sounds like you are doing a lot of what I did.

 

[jodifla]

Actually CIO is a fairly recent phenomenon. In the "olden" days people used to sleep with their children. My Italian grandmother believed in co-sleeping and extended breast feeding. She was born in 1896 and was quite strict in all areas of child raising. Also, most of the cultures in this world that are not as "progressive" as ours practice co-sleeping and child wearing and their children are allowed access to mommy and to nurse 24 hours a day.

So I agree with you, the old fashioned methods are the best way to go.

If all the co-sleeping works for you, great. Personally, having DS never worked for us because my DH is such a light sleeper he couldn't sleep at all, even when our DS was in the room in his basinette.

We had the issue of him coming to our room when he got his own big boy bed, but we firmly led him back to his room. We also had the issue when we just moved...he wanted to sleep with us. DH let this go on because he and DS had been separated for a bit...But, after a few nights of us being up for hours each night, we nipped it in the bud. Now, I lead DS firmly back to bed, with the instructions, "if you get up, I'm bringing you IMMEDIATELY back to your own bed. It is nigh-nigh time." It's worked, becaues he knows he can't play me. Now we are all sleeping an 8 hour stretch again, and even if DS needs to get up to go potty, and gets us up to help him, he knows it's time to go back to bed.

OP was asking for info on getting her child to sleep in her own room in her own bed. Not for thejoys of co-sleeping.

Also, "in the olden days" people tended to sleep in one room.

But again, if it works for your family, great. But lots of us DON"T LIKE IT! ANd we are not "child abusers" because of it.

 

[jeast]

My two kids, completely different temperaments, both CIO around 8 months old. My oldest was sleeping peacefully after a week. My second took longer, about three weeks of the most awful screaming. But now, she goes to sleep with no problems at all. It took a LOT of self discipline to help them make that very healthy transition.

That's the problem with a lot of parents. They don't want to discipline themselves. I know a lot of people who called me for advice and later told me it didn't work. When I questioned them about specifics, it ALWAYS turned out that they were inconsistent. They didn't view it that way, but picking the baby up and putting him/her in bed with you even after an hour of screaming gives the same message that picking them up five minutes into it gives. They just know to keep screaming and they will get their way eventually.

By the way, I cuddle my children every night, too. I'm very very affectionate with them. The difference is my kids get a snuggle and some love and CAN go to sleep themselves after I leave. My kids are definitely not scarred and love-starved. So many posters are trying to inspire guilt about letting your child cry. Please. You're not put on this earth to give your child everything he/she wants, but to provide love, structure, and training. Trust me, if you do everything in life to prevent them crying or feeling unhappy, you are not doing your job. Period.

Nothing wrong with co-sleeping if that is what you want, but most of us like to have some privacy with mates. For me, my sanity time is after the kids go to bed. I don't want to have to go to bed with them.

just my HO.

 

[Chris]

WOW, no tips at all, i could never ever do that. i refuse to let any of my kids cry... never had to take a bottle away from them either since i just nursed them all till they were about 2 then they were done nursing. All my kids co-sleep i'm confused by what you mean that it's not right... learned the hard way ??? Why is co-sleeping so awful? I think it's great. Also i did want to add that you took a 'attachment' item away from you dd and she is lost right now... IMO she needs love, not shut in a room to cry... but then again i think the only time my kids were EVER left to cry was maybe for 10-15 min in a car b/c there was no where to pull over.... I might get bashed here but this is My OPINION...

I'm the same way!! No slams from me!

 

[KerriMc]

Hello

Wow, I just read through this thread and can't believe the debate it has sparked. Everyone parents differently, and I believe most of us respect what another parent does even if it isn't what we ourselves may do. (the exception being letting a six week old CIO ).

Anyways ... MayMom ... I have a little machine from Obus Forme that makes continuous noise. It makes noise like white noise, rainfall, a water fall, babbling brook, nature, thunderstorm, etc. We got this from a friend about six months ago for our second dd (who was about 18 mos at the time) and it has been a MIRACLE for us !!!! She has always been a different sleeper from our first dd and just a little tougher. Before we got this we were doing the creeping out of the room, but the darn floor has a big creak right where you must step to get out of the room . So she would scream and cry and cry ... and because of past experience of first dd puking whenever hard crying happened, we would give in. We eventually did what SuperNanny suggested and we gradually moved further and further out the door until we were in the hall. Then we got the sound machine and it helped instantly. No more standing in the hall reminding her that we were there. Just book, kisses and cuddles, night nights and then sleep time. She slept through the night with this machine on all night. We use it now all the time. She will be 2 yrs on Friday and we now have a great routine. I just dread the molars arriving as teething always throws her off and we will be up at night for a few nights ... but she will eventually go back as it is such a routine now.

Good luck and keep it up ... it WILL get better

Kerri

p.s. We also turn on the bathroom fan across the hall from her room. That gives a nice hum too!

 

[justhat]

Okay, like I already said, my daughter still gets up during the night, but the wakings are fewer and fewer with no tears and here's what we've been doing. We went to a sleep clinic so this advice is from the team of psychologists and psychiatrists (all sleep specialists) who met with me and went over my daughter's sleep logs. She was waking probably about 6 times a night and we're now down to 2 (sleep clinic visit was 7/7). During the time that we've been making this transition, Madison has gone from 2 teeth to 8 teeth (major teething in 2 weeks!), weaned off of night nursing, and given up her pacifier (on her own volition, not something we forced) so not an easy time. Also, she sleeps in a toddler bed, not a crib, so keep that in mind too. Oh, and the bed in is our bedroom, simply because we do not have another room to put her in at this time.

We used to get Madison to sleep by sitting next to her bed and rubbing her back till she was just about asleep then we'd leave. Usually take about 15 minutes. When she woke up during the night we'd do the same thing, though I have to admit to taking her into our bed some nights around 4am because by that point I was so tired and just wanted to get some sleep. What they advised was to very gradually transition her to sleeping on her own, by rubbing her back for say 10 minutes, then just holding my hand still on her back till she falls asleep. Then cut back on the back rubbing to 5 minutes then continue to hold my hand on her back till she falls asleep. Then no back rubbing, just keep my hand on her back till she falls asleep. Then set time limits on the hand on the back-1st 10 minutes, then 5, then not at all. During that time, continue to sit next to her bed till she falls asleep, just not touching her. Then once you've gotten it to just sitting next to her bed while she falls asleep, with no physical contact, start to move further and further away from her bed, till eventually you're just putting her down to sleep and leaving the room while she's still awake. They suggested putting a gate at the bedroom door and when she gets out and wlaks to the door and calls for us/cries/whatever, go back in, walk her to her bed and leave, but keep doing that till she falls asleep. When she wakes during the night, we go through the same routine we did to get her to sleep that night. So if we're at the stage of hand on back for 5 minutes then sitting next to the bed, we do the same thing every time she wakes during the night. Each of those steps should be done for about 3 days, though shorter or longer as necessary. They also recommended a noise machine, so we bought the Sound Sleeper which has various options for noises on it.

Is it tiring and a long process? Yes, it definitely is. But Madison is not really crying (there are some tears during the night wakings, but very few, less than 30 seconds of crying) and she's making progress. It's really important to me that she not cry and scream during this process, not to mention that she's one of the babies who will gag and vomit if she cries too hard so that's definitely not worth it to me. The sleep clinic also told us that hours of screaming and crying will simply create a bad association with sleep. Even once she stops screaming and learns to fall asleep by herself, she'll still harbor fears and bad thoughts about sleep so they do not suggest leaving her in the room to cry and cry on her own for hours.

It's really harder for us since she's in our room and can climb out of her own bed and walk to ours, but there's nothing we can do about that right now so we just have to deal with it. She's getting much better about going back to sleep during the night and really the biggest challenge has been from her giving up the pacifier. She simply doesn't want the pacifier anymore, but is having trouble falling asleep without it since that's all she knew for 16 months. Last night was pretty good though, she woke up once at 10 for about 5 minutes and again at 3:45 for 5-10 minutes, so I think the worst of the pacifier trouble is over.

So there it is, our method of 'sleep training' without the tears. True, she's not sleeping all night yet, so I can't say it's proven to work by me, but I have seen great progress so I can only imagine it will continue.

 

[kidshop]

I just don't think there is a way to make my 16 month old stay in her bed all night without some crying. I have tried sitting next to her bed, which made her try frantically to get out. I also have a concrete routine in place every night. She has a blankie and I'm going to try a fan for white noise. I can't get in her bed because she is still in a crib. What did you do differently?
Thanks in advance - I need all the advice I can get!!

I'll just start with what I did from when they went to their own rooms (at 6 months). The room is dark, and I used a fan for noise (I love the noise machine idea) and a CD player. "A Child's Gift of Lullibies" is a beautiful and peaceful cd to help the transition to sleep. I have also used a cd of ocean waves. Both boys had/have stuffed lovies. I always went in within 5 minutes of fussing and did whatever needed to be done...feeding, patting, whatever. As they got older, I might delay a bit longer as long as there was no out and out crying) Nighttime was always dark and quiet and I did the minimum of interaction so as not to disturb them more than necessary. Bedtime is always early, b/c I firmly believe a well rested child sleeps better. I always went to ds2 at night and mostly he just wanted me to be there. I sat by the crib sometimes just patting his back, and as he got older as soon as I came in he would lay back down. I picked him up and held him, sometimes we slept a bit on a futon in his room...just whatever he seemed to need. But I never took him out of his room (this is important, I'll get to it!) and it always ended with him back in his crib sleeping...happily by then. Sometimes I was in there 2 hours, and this was every night until one day he just didn't wake anymore at about 16 months! I just moved him to a toddler bed, he'll be 3 in Oct. And we are in a new house! He does not ever leave his room and waits for me to come get him in the morning and after naps. He loves his room and has always loved his bed! He just knows that he stays there until I get him, I think that may be b/c there was really never any other way! If he calls me, I'm there..so no reason to fear. I'm actually surprised our move with the transition to toddler bed went so well, but I think a firm routine has helped him know what to expect. If he had come out of his room, I would just calmly and gently lead him back as many times as it took until he got the message. There is no need (IMO) for anger or punishment. I think, too, that kids can sense 'wishy-washyness' and will exploit that. In the NCSS book, the advice for when your daughter cries in her crib and tries to get out, would be for you to pick her up until she is calm (patting, rocking whatever helps her), and then put her back down If she cries again, you simply repeat until she 'gives up'. This is done calmly and lovingly, so while there will most likely be crying, it is NOT cio. And it may take 50 times at first, but you would be clear in your message that it is bedtime and time to sleep. I personally think this is much more effective for the long term and much easier on the child. As someone has said, cio methods are not 'permenant' and must be re-done after sickness or developmental stages. I have not experienced that in my case study of 2! I wouldn't do anything different! I hope that helps a little bit. Good luck!

 

[jodifla]

I'll just start with what I did from when they went to their own rooms (at 6 months). The room is dark, and I used a fan for noise (I love the noise machine idea) and a CD player. "A Child's Gift of Lullibies" is a beautiful and peaceful cd to help the transition to sleep. I have also used a cd of ocean waves. Both boys had/have stuffed lovies. I always went in within 5 minutes of fussing and did whatever needed to be done...feeding, patting, whatever. As they got older, I might delay a bit longer as long as there was no out and out crying) Nighttime was always dark and quiet and I did the minimum of interaction so as not to disturb them more than necessary. Bedtime is always early, b/c I firmly believe a well rested child sleeps better. I always went to ds2 at night and mostly he just wanted me to be there. I sat by the crib sometimes just patting his back, and as he got older as soon as I came in he would lay back down. I picked him up and held him, sometimes we slept a bit on a futon in his room...just whatever he seemed to need. But I never took him out of his room (this is important, I'll get to it!) and it always ended with him back in his crib sleeping...happily by then. Sometimes I was in there 2 hours, and this was every night until one day he just didn't wake anymore at about 16 months! I just moved him to a toddler bed, he'll be 3 in Oct. And we are in a new house! He does not ever leave his room and waits for me to come get him in the morning and after naps. He loves his room and has always loved his bed! He just knows that he stays there until I get him, I think that may be b/c there was really never any other way! If he calls me, I'm there..so no reason to fear. I'm actually surprised our move with the transition to toddler bed went so well, but I think a firm routine has helped him know what to expect. If he had come out of his room, I would just calmly and gently lead him back as many times as it took until he got the message. There is no need (IMO) for anger or punishment. I think, too, that kids can sense 'wishy-washyness' and will exploit that. In the NCSS book, the advice for when your daughter cries in her crib and tries to get out, would be for you to pick her up until she is calm (patting, rocking whatever helps her), and then put her back down If she cries again, you simply repeat until she 'gives up'. This is done calmly and lovingly, so while there will most likely be crying, it is NOT cio. And it may take 50 times at first, but you would be clear in your message that it is bedtime and time to sleep. I personally think this is much more effective for the long term and much easier on the child. As someone has said, cio methods are not 'permenant' and must be re-done after sickness or developmental stages. I have not experienced that in my case study of 2! I wouldn't do anything different! I hope that helps a little bit. Good luck!

But your child didn't sleep through the night until 16 months? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[kidshop]

Yeah, 16 months. I am happy with that! Ferber and the others even note that it is developmentally expected for a child to wake once at night to be fed until around 12 months. I had one that didn't didn't to be fed at night after 6 months, and one that needed me a bit longer, different kids have different personalities and needs. So, while you imply that not sleeping through (12 hours in a row) until 16 months is a BAD thing, I think it is normal baby behavior. I hardly remember those days now, but I will never regret being there at night.

 

[jodifla]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that being normal.

By the way, I was "there" at night, too. But my son didn't need me as a crutch to go to sleep, and I made sure he got all the food he needed during the day.

 

[becca011906]

heck i don't sleep through the night... i often wake to pee or get drink, so when my kids night wake i tend to their needs quickly and back to sleep we go. DS is old enough if he wakes he goes to the restroom get a drink of water form the cup in the bathroom and then gets himself back to bed. DD who is 3 y/o wakes at night about 2--3 times so nights crying b/c of a dream maybe, I'm not sure but i just rub her back and she sooths back to sleep. Often she will wake at night b/c her diaper is wet (yes she still wears a diaper to bed at 3 y/o but has been day time potty learned since 20 months so no complains)... i get her a nice dry daiper, or take her to the potty and she goes right sleep (again this isn't every night). Most nights she will sleep thorugh the night but there are some nights she will wake... same as i do and dh (and most adults i think). DD2 is 11 months old and wakes 2-3 times a night to nurse. she gets about 90% of her nutrition from Breastfeeding so i'm not going to denyer at this young age. She does a long streach of sleep usally 6-8 hours and i think that is pretty much "all night sleeping" b/c i only sleep that much but it's just not at the same time she does... ya know what mean? Like she goes to sleep about 9, then i spend time with dh till about 11 then she wakes about 4 or so and again about 7 usally for the day....

 

[kidshop]

Did you breastfeed? Night feedings are important to maintain milk supply. Check out the AAP policies for normal. What age is a baby 'supposed' to sleep through (12 hours) in your opinion and where did you get that information? I was no crutch! Just a mom!

 

[chobie]

If all the co-sleeping works for you, great. Personally, having DS never worked for us because my DH is such a light sleeper he couldn't sleep at all, even when our DS was in the room in his basinette.

We had the issue of him coming to our room when he got his own big boy bed, but we firmly led him back to his room. We also had the issue when we just moved...he wanted to sleep with us. DH let this go on because he and DS had been separated for a bit...But, after a few nights of us being up for hours each night, we nipped it in the bud. Now, I lead DS firmly back to bed, with the instructions, "if you get up, I'm bringing you IMMEDIATELY back to your own bed. It is nigh-nigh time." It's worked, becaues he knows he can't play me. Now we are all sleeping an 8 hour stretch again, and even if DS needs to get up to go potty, and gets us up to help him, he knows it's time to go back to bed.

OP was asking for info on getting her child to sleep in her own room in her own bed. Not for thejoys of co-sleeping.

Also, "in the olden days" people tended to sleep in one room.

But again, if it works for your family, great. But lots of us DON"T LIKE IT! ANd we are not "child abusers" because of it.

No you certainly are not a child abuser and I pointed that out in my first post.

I think its just as ridiculous to call CIO parents child abusers as it is to say that about co-sleepers(and we hear that all the time,too).

I realize in the olden days people tended to sleep in one room, but if someone is going to pine for those days they should know what they are pining for.

As far as what the OP wanted. Everyone knows that once you start a thread its fair game where it goes. The OP is free to have it closed, but she cannot demand people only post what she wants to hear.

 

[chobie]

Interesting, I hadn't heard about that being normal.

By the way, I was "there" at night, too. But my son didn't need me as a crutch to go to sleep, and I made sure he got all the food he needed during the day.

You know if you want people to respect your parenting choices and would like to see more of an YMMV attitude, perhaps you should avoid using provocative words like "crutch". I know one poster called you a child abuser and she was out-of-line IMO, but you are trying to make those of us who chose a different method then you to look as bad as one poster tried to make you look.

 

[jodifla]

Did you breastfeed? Night feedings are important to maintain milk supply. Check out the AAP policies for normal. What age is a baby 'supposed' to sleep through (12 hours) in your opinion and where did you get that information? I was no crutch! Just a mom!

I breastfed, but only for four months (another long story). What's AAP? Also, since you were breastfeeding, I can see how that changes the equation. Honestly, I don't remember when he slept through for 12 hours. I was happy with 8 hours at 7 weeks. I guess he went the 12 hours closer to six to eight months.

And if you like your method, that's great. But OP was up at 4:30 in the morning and unhappy about it. It also didn't sound like it was to be fed. It was a power play between them (at least, that's how it sounded to me.)

 

[jodifla]

You know if you want people to respect your parenting choices and would like to see more of an YMMV attitude, perhaps you should avoid using provocative words like "crutch". I know one poster called you a child abuser and she was out-of-line IMO, but you are trying to make those of us who chose a different method then you to look as bad as one poster tried to make you look.

What's a YMMV attitude? I don't know the abbreviation...

 

[chobie]

What's a YMMV attitude? I don't know the abbreviation...

Your Mileage May Vary.

And I do think it was wrong for that poster to call you a child abuser.

 

[kidshop]

I breastfed, but only for four months (another long story). What's AAP? Also, since you were breastfeeding, I can see how that changes the equation. Honestly, I don't remember when he slept through for 12 hours. I was happy with 8 hours at 7 weeks. I guess he went the 12 hours closer to six to eight months.

And if you like your method, that's great. But OP was up at 4:30 in the morning and unhappy about it. It also didn't sound like it was to be fed. It was a power play between them (at least, that's how it sounded to me.)

AAP is the American Academy of Pediatrics. All babies (people) are different, not all do the same things at the exact same time and all can be in the range of normal. My point is that there are ways to help the OP without doing cio and getting the same results...sleeping at night in her bed. I think the poster who explained about the sleep clinic was an excellent resource! There are many ways to acomplish the same goal, and some people do prefer a gentler approach.