Covid And The Rest of Us

[ronandannette]

Thank you to all who shared kind words of support and encouragement.

Just got word the US embassy will be opening for visa appointments which should also mean passport renewals too ,which means my trip to the US in January 21 that has been postponed since April 20 is one step closer to being a go!

If it’s not too personal, could you explain a little what the exact problem is? Are you unable to get into the US or out of Honduras?,

 

[Karin1984]

I love looking at your pictures. And I like (much as I’m trying) that you are trying to live your life as close to normal as possible. It makes me feel I’m not crazy when I’m trying to do the same thing.

I believe that if you can live your life as normal as possible, you should do it. Of course within reason and with precautions the government dictates. And there are exceptions to those with essential jobs and/or are a target group (or their family members/loved ones). I think if there are no extra risk factors, and you are allowed to play sports, go to the movies or go out for dinner, you should do it if that was part of your normal life. Even when it's with measures.
Doing things that are normal to you work wonders for your mental health. I think locking yourself up in your home and wait for everything to be over can be very damaging.

The beginning of lockdown was very hard on me, those first two months. I had a job, but no work and no purpose. I have cried so much and I really couldn't handle seeing all those happy families on social media 'look at us, how well we do in lockdown, #qualitytimewiththefamily!' I was home alone, and the only person I saw was the woman at the register in the supermarket. I was a total wreck.

I know I am privileged at the moment as I live alone, have a non essential job and can work from home. No job loss or loss of income. No contact with risk groups. Being in the Netherlands where we are pretty casual about the whole thing (won't take long ;-) just read up on the news) helps as well. I know I am dealt a good hand of cards in this pandemic. I am aware that I have more options than others.

Yes, the moment I could do normal things again, and I felt safe enough to do so (fear truly cripples people), I jumped on the wagon. I am not going to apologize for it or feel bad about it. Because I am not helping anyone if I stay in with my very low risk life. The only one I am hurting then is myself.

If I can share a sense of normality in this thread, I will Happy Halloween everyone!

Share some joy with Stitch



If I ever get a man, can he look at me like Jack does?



Have a good conversation with Kristoff. Who spoke Dutch. Which always confuses me when characters speak in my native language. It's weird. ;-)


And the rest of the stories of my DLP adventures will be shared on the DLP board when I get home. On the train back home now.

 

[ronandannette]

@Karin1984 - do you celebrate Thanksgiving in Holland? It is Thanksgiving Day here and although for most of us there will have been no holiday travels or large gatherings of family and friends, it’s nice to declare a little break from sorrow and uncertainty and turn our thoughts to the positives in our lives. Turkey dinners and pumpkin pie are awesome too!!

Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

 

[Karin1984]

@Karin1984 - do you celebrate Thanksgiving in Holland? It is Thanksgiving Day here and although for most of us there will have been no holiday travels or large gatherings of family and friends, it’s nice to declare a little break from sorrow and uncertainty and turn our thoughts to the positives in our lives. Turkey dinners and pumpkin pie are awesome too!!

Happy Thanksgiving everybody.

No. We never had the need to be thankful
We have only 2.2 secular holidays in the Netherlands: New Year's day and April 27 which is King's day and our national holiday. And the .2 is for Liberation Day, when we celebrate the end of the 2nd world war, but we only get the day off every 5 years. No idea why. Dutch way of compromising probably! Besides that a handful of Christian holidays and that's it. So today is just a day like any other, but it is the birthday of my Disney buddy so a good reason to play at Disneyland

Oh, today is the 29th anniversary of Sleeping Beauty's castle in Disneyland Paris. It was done 6 months ahead of the opening and they had a little ceremony 29 years ago to celebrate.

https://www.facebook.com/158548457668528/posts/1481352325388128

 

[TLSnell1981]

Where were you headed?

That is an unusual way of reporting it rather than using actual numbers. Based on the most recent data (updated daily) released by the CBC there are about 260 people in hospital amongst your 14-some odd million people. Scroll down until you see a graph with 4 colourful lines entitled “Hospitalizations Rates for Covid in the Four Largest Provinces”. It is a per-million people number.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...tics-numbers-cases-hospitalizations-1.5514947

Austria and Germany. Chances are restrictions may have prevented the trip but they are still booking tickets for our destinations at a higher price point.

 

[Jrb1979]

We must protect the most vulnerable while moving to reopen our economy. It involves relaxing travel restrictions. Otherwise we can't survive. We saw supplies temporarily dry up last spring. What will happen next is much worse and long reaching. Actually it's already happening. Too many businesses and jobs will be gone. There's not enough money to throw at it to make a meaningful difference.

I will add that Canada never stopped supply chains from border crossing. The only ones stopped is non essential travel meaning vacation travel. I know that does hurt a lot of people with that in place. Like I have said many times I'm fine with dropping the mandatory quarantine. It needs to be replaced with better screening or with testing like Air Canada wants.

 

[ronandannette]

I will add that Canada never stopped supply chains from border crossing. The only ones stopped is non essential travel meaning vacation travel. I know that does hurt a lot of people with that in place. Like I have said many times I'm fine with dropping the mandatory quarantine. It needs to be replaced with better screening or with testing like Air Canada wants.

That is correct, along with a myriad other exemptions that have allowed access. So that being the case, at this point are we not really just playing “security theatre”?

Let’s also look objectively at the information our officials are providing. Practically every provincial CMO points to private gatherings of family and friends as being the chief points of transmission currently. That’s a problem that isn’t affected in the slightest by international travel. There have been virtually no reports of transmission due to air travel or through hotels and restaurants. Very little transmission (since the beginning) reported through retail outlets in either employees or customers.

I’m just sincerely asking you what you think we’re truly and effectively protecting ourselves from? FTR I was very much in support of the border closures early on, before we had the information we have now and after seeing how things have developed. I am all for cautious measures of proven effect but adding layers of restrictions that don’t seem to be working just makes an already difficult situation that much harder.

 

[Jrb1979]

That is correct, along with a myriad other exemptions that have allowed access. So that being the case, at this point are we not really just playing “security theatre”?

Let’s also look objectively at the information our officials are providing. Practically every provincial CMO points to private gatherings of family and friends as being the chief points of transmission currently. That’s a problem that isn’t affected in the slightest by international travel. There have been virtually no reports of transmission due to air travel or through hotels and restaurants. Very little transmission (since the beginning) reported through retail outlets in either employees or customers.

I’m just sincerely asking you what you think we’re truly and effectively protecting ourselves from? FTR I was very much in support of the border closures early on, before we had the information we have now and after seeing how things have developed. I am all for cautious measures of proven effect but adding layers of restrictions that don’t seem to be working just makes an already difficult situation that much harder.

I agree we don't need the strict restrictions now and it's why I have said that the system Air Canada wants to do should be in place of border closures.

 

[ronandannette]

I agree we don't need the strict restrictions now and it's why I have said that the system Air Canada wants to do should be in place of border closures.

Are you talking about the insurance plan? If so, how do you see that making any difference? If it’s something else that I’ve missed, please explain.

 

[Jrb1979]

Are you talking about the insurance plan? If so, how do you see that making any difference? If it’s something else that I’ve missed, please explain.

https://www.nsnews.com/news/here-is...e-14-day-quarantine-for-travellers-1.24217821
They plan to use rapid testing to test people before they get on a plane. If it works that would be the best way to drop the 14 day quarantine. I don't see what's wrong with implementing that for all that come into Canada.

 

[bavaria]

I will add that Canada never stopped supply chains from border crossing. The only ones stopped is non essential travel meaning vacation travel. I know that does hurt a lot of people with that in place. Like I have said many times I'm fine with dropping the mandatory quarantine. It needs to be replaced with better screening or with testing like Air Canada wants.

I'm sorry, but again I must point out that you are misrepresenting the facts. You seem very focussed on your own situation, and your wish to ride a roller coaster on holiday. But the reality is that business travel to closed countries has almost ground to a halt, along with the things I have listed before such as humanitarian aid, etc. Non-essential travel does not equate to just leisure travel. I shared just one example of a multi-million dollar contract apparently being cancelled due to people not being able to enter for work. Or how about the pain of a mother and brother I know, who cannot visit the son who has been told that his last chemo did not work, and to prepare for end of life? How does one prepare for end of life in a country where people cannot enter, and cannot leave? Or how about the many, many people who have their lives split across countries and regions, and who cannot now get home to their partner, or their loved one, or even be with them? Mrs Merkel very early on opened up to 'partners' ie not just married on paper spouses, because she has compassion for the fact that her culture does not usually marry much anymore. I've seen the 'new' compassionate rules for Canada, and it still takes weeks and a lot of paperwork to enter for many of the people who fall into the 'now allowed' category.

Yet every day, thousands of flight crew members are arriving, without quarantine, without testing, and are able to spend several days out and about in the country, with no perceptible spread.

The EU is moving to a green/yellow/red light system like Germany. Over the weekend, there was an explosion of news stories in the Welt and the SZ (the most respected papers) about experts in many fields, including the COVIDmeister Drosten, saying that travel restrictions do not work (like @mousefan73 outlined). They even say now the 50 per 100,000 new cases is not really accurate anymore as an indicator for concern, since the death rate is no longer tied to the case rate. And they were very much against the 'shaming' of people that we have seen here sometimes.

The next 10 days are critical. For the last 30 days in DACH+FL, the case rate has risen but the death rate has stayed flat. There are 22,000 extra ICU beds open in Germany, and 300-500 people in ICU. If these figures continue for the next 10 days, then I think it is clear that this is not the situation we had in March. Even little Portugal, with the lowest ICU bed rate per capita in Europe, and a country I know well, has had rising cases but not rising deaths (ok, more so than the other ones I listed, but when they are under 20/day and of an average age of mortality, it is difficult to see that as an alarming trend)

It's now seven months since the world shut down, and in those seven months things have changed. Yet many places still have the same restrictions and rules and are not adapting, or learning from each other.

 

[bavaria]

And on a side note, whenever you post @Karin1984 I have to check because it looks like you are posting promotional DLRP photos with a model (nope, just Karin!) And @MommyinHonduras, I hope that you don't mind but when you post I always place you in an AJ Cronin or Pearl Buck novel. (That is meant as a compliment, not that I think that you are born in the 1920's!)

@TLSnell1981 hopefully the airfare goes down as there are some very, very low prices out there (and some very high ones too as some flights/routes are full although of course fewer flights/day) The other day I was walking through MUC and a flight from Canada was deplaning. It was great to see so many families with children who I assume were coming on holiday.

 

[mousefan73]

https://www.nsnews.com/news/here-is...e-14-day-quarantine-for-travellers-1.24217821
They plan to use rapid testing to test people before they get on a plane. If it works that would be the best way to drop the 14 day quarantine. I don't see what's wrong with implementing that for all that come into Canada.

I assume this will be part of the United/Lufthansa/Air Canada joint venture.. I know UA/LH have been working for months on this...

 

[Jrb1979]

I'm sorry, but again I must point out that you are misrepresenting the facts. You seem very focussed on your own situation, and your wish to ride a roller coaster on holiday. But the reality is that business travel to closed countries has almost ground to a halt, along with the things I have listed before such as humanitarian aid, etc. Non-essential travel does not equate to just leisure travel. I shared just one example of a multi-million dollar contract apparently being cancelled due to people not being able to enter for work. Or how about the pain of a mother and brother I know, who cannot visit the son who has been told that his last chemo did not work, and to prepare for end of life? How does one prepare for end of life in a country where people cannot enter, and cannot leave? Or how about the many, many people who have their lives split across countries and regions, and who cannot now get home to their partner, or their loved one, or even be with them? Mrs Merkel very early on opened up to 'partners' ie not just married on paper spouses, because she has compassion for the fact that her culture does not usually marry much anymore. I've seen the 'new' compassionate rules for Canada, and it still takes weeks and a lot of paperwork to enter for many of the people who fall into the 'now allowed' category.

Yet every day, thousands of flight crew members are arriving, without quarantine, without testing, and are able to spend several days out and about in the country, with no perceptible spread.

The EU is moving to a green/yellow/red light system like Germany. Over the weekend, there was an explosion of news stories in the Welt and the SZ (the most respected papers) about experts in many fields, including the COVIDmeister Drosten, saying that travel restrictions do not work (like @mousefan73 outlined). They even say now the 50 per 100,000 new cases is not really accurate anymore as an indicator for concern, since the death rate is no longer tied to the case rate. And they were very much against the 'shaming' of people that we have seen here sometimes.

The next 10 days are critical. For the last 30 days in DACH+FL, the case rate has risen but the death rate has stayed flat. There are 22,000 extra ICU beds open in Germany, and 300-500 people in ICU. If these figures continue for the next 10 days, then I think it is clear that this is not the situation we had in March. Even little Portugal, with the lowest ICU bed rate per capita in Europe, and a country I know well, has had rising cases but not rising deaths (ok, more so than the other ones I listed, but when they are under 20/day and of an average age of mortality, it is difficult to see that as an alarming trend)

It's now seven months since the world shut down, and in those seven months things have changed. Yet many places still have the same restrictions and rules and are not adapting, or learning from each other.

I understand all of the that. They are lifting restrictions here so families can get together. I do get what you saying in that since cases aren't coming from people traveling that we should drop everything. I disagree that everything should be dropped. What's wrong with implementing what Air Canada has proposed in using a rapid test?

 

[bavaria]

I understand all of the that. They are lifting restrictions here so families can get together. I do get what you saying in that since cases aren't coming from people traveling that we should drop everything. I disagree that everything should be dropped. What's wrong with implementing what Air Canada has proposed in using a rapid test?

Who has said 'everything should be dropped'? I don't see anyone saying that in this thread ,but I do see that misrepresented here and on another thread claiming that I and a few other are saying that.

We are not saying that.

What we are saying is that there has to be an ongoing review and assessment of risk and balance. The problem is that it is difficult to have a discussion when people only see in black and white ie open or close. There are many different ways countries have tried to implement a guideline, measurement, testing, etc which has been effective for the last many months. Closing borders entirely (and yet again, let's take the US out of this), and implementing a quarantine of 14 days on arrival, and keeping many state/provincial borders closed is a very heavy handed, across the board approach. It is killing economies, and having a severe impact on health. Many countries have taken the risk to open with some measure in place, without a significant negative impact. Testing on or before arrival, reducing quarantine to fewer days, and implementing a case per 100,000 measure are just some examples which have worked around the world. So has opening to select 'safe' countries like Japan and South Korea are doing. There are many options besides 'open' and 'closed', and the discussion is not so simplistic.

 

[Jrb1979]

Who has said 'everything should be dropped'? I don't see anyone saying that in this thread ,but I do see that misrepresented here and on another thread claiming that I and a few other are saying that.

We are not saying that.

What we are saying is that there has to be an ongoing review and assessment of risk and balance. The problem is that it is difficult to have a discussion when people only see in black and white ie open or close. There are many different ways countries have tried to implement a guideline, measurement, testing, etc which has been effective for the last many months. Closing borders entirely (and yet again, let's take the US out of this), and implementing a quarantine of 14 days on arrival, and keeping many state/provincial borders closed is a very heavy handed, across the board approach. It is killing economies, and having a severe impact on health. Many countries have taken the risk to open with some measure in place, without a significant negative impact. Testing on or before arrival, reducing quarantine to fewer days, and implementing a case per 100,000 measure are just some examples which have worked around the world. So has opening to select 'safe' countries like Japan and South Korea are doing. There are many options besides 'open' and 'closed', and the discussion is not so simplistic.

Which again is why I have been saying all along that I'm fine with the rapid testing system Air Canada wants to put in place. I think why they are hesitant to do that here is due to the US.

 

[ronandannette]

I understand all of the that. They are lifting restrictions here so families can get together. I do get what you saying in that since cases aren't coming from people traveling that we should drop everything. I disagree that everything should be dropped. What's wrong with implementing what Air Canada has proposed in using a rapid test?

Not sure what you mean by this - who is suggesting it? Anyone in Canada (regardless of where they are from or how they got here) is subject to all the
local restrictions for masking, distancing and gathering sizes. I don’t recall anyone saying they should be abandoned part-and-parcel.

 

[bavaria]

Not sure what you mean by this - who is suggesting it? Anyone in Canada (regardless of where they are from or how they got here) is subject to all the
local restrictions for masking, distancing and gathering sizes. I don’t recall anyone saying they should be abandoned part-and-parcel.

And I think that we have all agreed that we follow local rules and guidelines, like wearing masks when required, distancing, etc.

Now, that may not be the same everywhere, and some of you may not like the fact that masks are not required in a lot of Europe, or that the distance is 1 metre instead of 2 metres, and that we can swim/sauna etc. But we respect the rules. And often we go above and beyond the rules, depending on personal comfort. My partner has a much lower comfort level than me (and has since last year with this virus), and he sometimes gets annoyed with me. A few weeks ago we met some Germans in a parking lot, and I had a good conversation with them. But I was reprimanded for being one metre apart, outside, and not wearing a mask. And he sometimes wears a mask inside when it is not required, because that is his comfort level.

But none of us have said we disobey local requirements.

(and I forgot @DisneyDebbie - YES I am so concerned about the arts. I used to go to galleries and museums and concerts several times a week, and will fly to London for theatre if there is a play I want to see, etc and I am so sad to see how many places around the world have had to shut down and may never reopen. Even places which educate children like the Vancouver Aquarium have said that they must cease to operate to the public. The same holds true for some fantastic restaurants both tiny hole in the wall and Michelin star - many have already closed permanently. Culture and knowledge are severely impacted already, less than a year into this)

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

https://www.nsnews.com/news/here-is...e-14-day-quarantine-for-travellers-1.24217821
They plan to use rapid testing to test people before they get on a plane. If it works that would be the best way to drop the 14 day quarantine. I don't see what's wrong with implementing that for all that come into Canada.

Who pays for that? The Canadian Government?

 

[TLSnell1981]

And on a side note, whenever you post @Karin1984 I have to check because it looks like you are posting promotional DLRP photos with a model (nope, just Karin!) And @MommyinHonduras, I hope that you don't mind but when you post I always place you in an AJ Cronin or Pearl Buck novel. (That is meant as a compliment, not that I think that you are born in the 1920's!)

@TLSnell1981 hopefully the airfare goes down as there are some very, very low prices out there (and some very high ones too as some flights/routes are full although of course fewer flights/day) The other day I was walking through MUC and a flight from Canada was deplaning. It was great to see so many families with children who I assume were coming on holiday.

My frustration is they cancelled my flight instead of moving us to alternate itinerary. The current fares are almost double our original.