Covid And The Rest of Us

[MommyinHonduras]

Really appreciated this, really appreciated that at around 20 minute mark they do not forget about my part of the world in the discussion.

 

[Karin1984]

Becoming one of the hotspots in Europe is probably caused by young superspreaders (highschool & college ages, highschools are open, colleges are mainly virtual). They don't feel sick but have more virus particles (?) in their breathe than we saw before. So their chances of spreading it are much higher than before. Also they are not very good at sticking to quarantine. Plus for the college kids it doesn't help that student housing is not very good, old buildings (so no proper ventilation) and lots of people in a small space.

Belgium is reporting the same problem.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Becoming one of the hotspots in Europe is probably caused by young superspreaders (highschool & college ages, highschools are open, colleges are mainly virtual). They don't feel sick but have more virus particles (?) in their breathe than we saw before. So their chances of spreading it are much higher than before. Also they are not very good at sticking to quarantine. Plus for the college kids it doesn't help that student housing is not very good, old buildings (so no proper ventilation) and lots of people in a small space.

Belgium is reporting the same problem.

Basically the same in Ireland. We had a huge surge of numbers after the schools and colleges opened. Also communions and confirmations which were postponed since March all happened in September which resulted in huge clusters in families and homes. The whole country is in now in level 3 restrictions

• Travel only in your county, police checkpoints on highways
• Only have visitors from 1 other household in your home
• No social or family gatherings
• 25 people maximum at weddings
• No indoor events
• No sports events or training except elite sports
• Cafes and restaurants outdoor dining maximum 15 people or take out / delivery only
• Bars in Dublin closed, bars in other counties, outdoor maximum 15 people or take out / delivery only
• Religious services online only

 

[trvlgirlmq]

I’m not sure how Americans are getting into EU countries when we are either totally banned or there is a required 14 day quarantine.

Also, to go to Croatia, which is allowing Americans for leisure travel, you must have a negative PCR test administered no earlier than 48 hours from your time of ARRIVAL. Where are you going to get such rapid results and still be able to fly form the US to Europe. Most travel times from my city would be about 16 hours. Not happening. Using that as an a example is really poor.

 

[bavaria]

I’m not sure how Americans are getting into EU countries when we are either totally banned or there is a required 14 day quarantine.

Also, to go to Croatia, which is allowing Americans for leisure travel, you must have a negative PCR test administered no earlier than 48 hours from your time of ARRIVAL. Where are you going to get such rapid results and still be able to fly form the US to Europe. Most travel times from my city would be about 16 hours. Not happening. Using that as an a example is really poor.

There are thousands of Americans travelling in Europe right now, and entire travel agencies have shifted to arrange this. It's not that difficult to find ways and I've pointed before to Flyertalk.com as one source of good information. Not all countries require a quarantine either, and not all quarantines are 14 days.

Besides Europe, Americans can travel to many countries around the world right now. The media narrative is not the actual reality. Or just ask the American who was bragging in the FRA Lufthansa lounge last week that he was from New Jersey, first time in Europe, and was on his way to the Algarve. There are many ways to travel right now if one has the desire, and studies have shown that airplane travel is extremely low risk.

Edited to add that Turkey is open to Americans, and the test for other countries can be done at the airport there. Turkey is a fabulous country which would take a year to fully explore, so much to see besides Istanbul and I highly recommend it. Weather is still ok now, even Ankara in the cold is good. Outside of Europe, I recommend Tanzania, or the Maldives. And of course Mexico is closer to home. Lots of the world to explore.

 

[ronandannette]

Really appreciated this, really appreciated that at around 20 minute mark they do not forget about my part of the world in the discussion.

This is astonishing - it resonates as being completely credible and is well worth the time to listen. Where is the information like this for North America?!? I've really heard nothing of the kind and I suspect this guy would be chased with torches and pitchforks by many if it were introduced on some of the other Covid-related threads here. I'm not sure if any part of the message would change based on what's happened in the past 6 weeks (it was recorded in early September) but I certainly would be interested to hear any updates if you become aware of them.

 

[ronandannette]

Basically the same in Ireland. We had a huge surge of numbers after the schools and colleges opened. Also communions and confirmations which were postponed since March all happened in September which resulted in huge clusters in families and homes. The whole country is in now in level 3 restrictions

• Travel only in your county, police checkpoints on highways
• Only have visitors from 1 other household in your home
• No social or family gatherings
• 25 people maximum at weddings
• No indoor events
• No sports events or training except elite sports
• Cafes and restaurants outdoor dining maximum 15 people or take out / delivery only
• Bars in Dublin closed, bars in other counties, outdoor maximum 15 people or take out / delivery only
• Religious services online only

Please listen to the video posted by @MommyinHonduras just above your post. It is extremely informative.

 

[ronandannette]

There are thousands of Americans travelling in Europe right now, and entire travel agencies have shifted to arrange this. It's not that difficult to find ways and I've pointed before to Flyertalk.com as one source of good information. Not all countries require a quarantine either, and not all quarantines are 14 days.

Besides Europe, Americans can travel to many countries around the world right now. The media narrative is not the actual reality. Or just ask the American who was bragging in the FRA Lufthansa lounge last week that he was from New Jersey, first time in Europe, and was on his way to the Algarve. There are many ways to travel right now if one has the desire, and studies have shown that airplane travel is extremely low risk.

Edited to add that Turkey is open to Americans, and the test for other countries can be done at the airport there. Turkey is a fabulous country which would take a year to fully explore, so much to see besides Istanbul and I highly recommend it. Weather is still ok now, even Ankara in the cold is good. Outside of Europe, I recommend Tanzania, or the Maldives. And of course Mexico is closer to home. Lots of the world to explore.

Yes, the big issue with travel for Canadians isn't having to quarantine at destination, it's having to quarantine upon return back at home. Adding 2 weeks to a vacation for most employed people is just not viable.

 

[bavaria]

Yes, the big issue with travel for Canadians isn't having to quarantine at destination, it's having to quarantine upon return back at home. Adding 2 weeks to a vacation for most employed people is just not viable.

Ugh I know and that is why Germany still has Canada on the warning list! Not because of cases. It really is time for all these 'safe' countries to open to each other.... Japan and South Korea are doing so but really, a lot of countries (like Canada) should be on the list to each other by this point.

 

[bavaria]

Please listen to the video posted by @MommyinHonduras just above your post. It is extremely informative.

I read today (not sure if a valid source, so won't quote it, but seems to follow the trend...)

Average life expectancy in Ireland 81.5 years.
Average age of someone who died with COVID 84 years.
Ireland does rank 22 globally in deaths per million, but if those figures are correct, it speaks more to issues with eldercare. And in Ireland, the same trend of rising cases but flat death rates ie the death rate is uncoupled from the case rate.

As to your other question, it's been very refreshing to follow this since March, and see some viewpoints change

I think that this comes down to some countries/cultures/societies deciding that the relative risk is low, and that they will not implement measures like in March. That's why we see the Nordic and the DACH countries implementing, light, regional based restrictions only when merited, and not having a full lockdown again which punishes every person and many businesses (oddly, mostly English speaking countries seem to do this, even Spain is doing it regionally) I go back to what I posted earlier about Schäuble, the Bundestag president who negotiated reunification 30 years ago. He was adamant in April that the freedoms of people would not be restricted in violation of the Basic Law, and the government has continued with that approach. The populations in these countries seem to support that and the fear level seems to be much, much lower. There is a strong desire to return to a realistic way of life, with moderate restrictions as required (like those implemented today in some areas)

Generally, what I read here online, as well as a few other places, differs markedly from what I hear in person. And for @MommyinHonduras, we were discussing you in Berlin last week as someone raised the restrictions there. Rest assured that you and the people there are not forgotten, as this was an older, blue collar worker, who had obviously read or heard about life there and was well informed.

The sad reality is though that on this site, and on a few others I read, this viewpoint is considered to be one of those terms which Americans used in their highly politicized discussions about the virus. So it becomes difficult to have any discussion and try and encourage people to consider facts vs what the media shouts out daily.

 

[MommyinHonduras]

I'm not sure if any part of the message would change based on what's happened in the past 6 weeks (it was recorded in early September) but I certainly would be interested to hear any updates if you become aware of them.

I am following his channel too, to learn how he proceeds with the data that comes in over the winter flu season along with continued sarscov2 data.
To both you and @bavaria it's been helpful to have a few friends on the outside just who consider things not "mainstream" for my personal sanity of not feeling alone.

We went to the West Bay Beach yesterday as a whole family, all 13 of us. It was such a huge sigh of stress leaving. We booked day passes as a local resort called Paradise Beach Resort as a way out of the house for my kiddos. My 6 year old said the night before, Paradise sounds like freedom to me! And it was and I'm sorry it has been over 200 days since he and most of his siblings have left the neighborhood. It was good to see a smattering of tourists about who were willing to travel here. The venders and tourist activities employees were in full force on the few of us who were there.
Thankful for my sunkissed family time this week.

 

[MommyinHonduras]

 

[Jrb1979]

I read today (not sure if a valid source, so won't quote it, but seems to follow the trend...)

Average life expectancy in Ireland 81.5 years.
Average age of someone who died with COVID 84 years.
Ireland does rank 22 globally in deaths per million, but if those figures are correct, it speaks more to issues with eldercare. And in Ireland, the same trend of rising cases but flat death rates ie the death rate is uncoupled from the case rate.

As to your other question, it's been very refreshing to follow this since March, and see some viewpoints change

I think that this comes down to some countries/cultures/societies deciding that the relative risk is low, and that they will not implement measures like in March. That's why we see the Nordic and the DACH countries implementing, light, regional based restrictions only when merited, and not having a full lockdown again which punishes every person and many businesses (oddly, mostly English speaking countries seem to do this, even Spain is doing it regionally) I go back to what I posted earlier about Schäuble, the Bundestag president who negotiated reunification 30 years ago. He was adamant in April that the freedoms of people would not be restricted in violation of the Basic Law, and the government has continued with that approach. The populations in these countries seem to support that and the fear level seems to be much, much lower. There is a strong desire to return to a realistic way of life, with moderate restrictions as required (like those implemented today in some areas)

Generally, what I read here online, as well as a few other places, differs markedly from what I hear in person. And for @MommyinHonduras, we were discussing you in Berlin last week as someone raised the restrictions there. Rest assured that you and the people there are not forgotten, as this was an older, blue collar worker, who had obviously read or heard about life there and was well informed.

The sad reality is though that on this site, and on a few others I read, this viewpoint is considered to be one of those terms which Americans used in their highly politicized discussions about the virus. So it becomes difficult to have any discussion and try and encourage people to consider facts vs what the media shouts out daily.

Its mindboggling how quick people's opinions change in here. I'm tired with hearing the FEAR garbage. Wearing masks and social distancing is not FEAR. I'm trying to figure out what do people want? Outside of the quarantine, just about everything is back to being open just with lower capacity.

I would be fine with getting rid of the mandatory quarantine but a better screening system and contact tracing has to be in place. It feels like many of you don't want that either and we should be able to come and go as we please cause COUNTRIES NEED TOURISM TO SURVIVE.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Its mindboggling how quick people's opinions change in here. I'm tired with hearing the FEAR garbage. Wearing masks and social distancing is not FEAR. I'm trying to figure out what do people want? Outside of the quarantine, just about everything is back to being open just with lower capacity.

I would be fine with getting rid of the mandatory quarantine but a better screening system and contact tracing has to be in place. It feels like many of you don't want that either and we should be able to come and go as we please cause COUNTRIES NEED TOURISM TO SURVIVE.

I don't *think* the person is referring to social distancing and masks as being fearmongering.

As to your tourism comment that is the reality of some countries, they survive off of tourism. To be in a country that doesn't require that speaks to our privilege (and I rarely if ever use privilege as a descriptor)

 

[bavaria]

I don't *think* the person is referring to social distancing and masks as being fearmongering.

As to your tourism comment that is the reality of some countries, they survive off of tourism. To be in a country that doesn't require that speaks to our privilege (and I rarely if ever use privilege as a descriptor)

I was not going to reply, because I have really tried to restrain myself and understand that in my normal life, I would not be engaging in conversation with many of the people here.

I have said over and over that the issue is that people in places of privilege are making decisions or supporting decisions which are causing a crisis for much of the world. I'll try and make it simple for those who don't understand yet that this is not about the ability to go ride a roller coaster in a theme park.

- with closed borders, NGOs and voluntary organizations had to stop their critical work in much of the world, meaning that poverty and hunger increased. Why do we think that the Nobel Prize went to the World Food Programme this year?! Their job will be even greater in coming years thanks to the reaction to the pandemic.

- people all over the world have lost their jobs. Until now, those were commonly in the service sector, but that will change as now white collar, salaried people in other roles often though 'safe' are losing jobs. This will have a trickle down impact as they cannot spend, and as support systems are ending

- service sector employees in much of the world come from poor countries, live in shared housing, and send almost their entire income back home to India, the Philippines, etc. They started losing their jobs in February, and along with the job of course the work visa. Yet hundreds of thousands could not go home, because of closed borders, so had to find housing and food as often their previous employer did not provide for them. Those that have managed to go home now have no income, and they and their families are starving

- white collar workers are also losing their jobs and having to return 'home'. I heard this week from a friend in Melbourne, who lost their salaried great job, and their visa. They have lived abroad for almost two decades, but have two weeks to leave and return to India, where the job prospects in the family village are almost nil, and the prospects in their industry very slim with so much competition from returning workers

- there is an inequity in 'new' jobs. The jobs which are being made are in certain industries and in certain areas, and just because one loses a job, does not mean that one can easily find another. I will use Canada as an example as we have many Canadian posters, although Germany had a similar issue. In the spring/summer, there was almost a food crisis as the people who work the harvest come from abroad. Restrictions were changed to allow those foreign workers in to do a very difficult, very specialized job, with poor living conditions. Often the cases were amongst this population. Now imagine that @ronandannette loses her office job if her industry is suddenly impacted next year because of decisions made this year. Do we think that she will be able to take a job as a tree planter, or harvesting fruit, living in group housing? Will the poster from Winnipeg who works from home and is very scared because of her medical condition take a job as a grocery store clerk if she loses her current work from home job?

Surely by this point people can try and understand that this is not about leisure but about the massive inequity we had in the world, and the impact that decisions made now are having on people globally, and the impact it will have for years to come.

This is not about 'killing grandma' because we won't stay home. This is about 'killing people in Africa, Asia, Latin America' etc.

 

[Jrb1979]

I was not going to reply, because I have really tried to restrain myself and understand that in my normal life, I would not be engaging in conversation with many of the people here.

I have said over and over that the issue is that people in places of privilege are making decisions or supporting decisions which are causing a crisis for much of the world. I'll try and make it simple for those who don't understand yet that this is not about the ability to go ride a roller coaster in a theme park.

- with closed borders, NGOs and voluntary organizations had to stop their critical work in much of the world, meaning that poverty and hunger increased. Why do we think that the Nobel Prize went to the World Food Programme this year?! Their job will be even greater in coming years thanks to the reaction to the pandemic.

- people all over the world have lost their jobs. Until now, those were commonly in the service sector, but that will change as now white collar, salaried people in other roles often though 'safe' are losing jobs. This will have a trickle down impact as they cannot spend, and as support systems are ending

- service sector employees in much of the world come from poor countries, live in shared housing, and send almost their entire income back home to India, the Philippines, etc. They started losing their jobs in February, and along with the job of course the work visa. Yet hundreds of thousands could not go home, because of closed borders, so had to find housing and food as often their previous employer did not provide for them. Those that have managed to go home now have no income, and they and their families are starving

- white collar workers are also losing their jobs and having to return 'home'. I heard this week from a friend in Melbourne, who lost their salaried great job, and their visa. They have lived abroad for almost two decades, but have two weeks to leave and return to India, where the job prospects in the family village are almost nil, and the prospects in their industry very slim with so much competition from returning workers

- there is an inequity in 'new' jobs. The jobs which are being made are in certain industries and in certain areas, and just because one loses a job, does not mean that one can easily find another. I will use Canada as an example as we have many Canadian posters, although Germany had a similar issue. In the spring/summer, there was almost a food crisis as the people who work the harvest come from abroad. Restrictions were changed to allow those foreign workers in to do a very difficult, very specialized job, with poor living conditions. Often the cases were amongst this population. Now imagine that @ronandannette loses her office job if her industry is suddenly impacted next year because of decisions made this year. Do we think that she will be able to take a job as a tree planter, or harvesting fruit, living in group housing? Will the poster from Winnipeg who works from home and is very scared because of her medical condition take a job as a grocery store clerk if she loses her current work from home job?

Surely by this point people can try and understand that this is not about leisure but about the massive inequity we had in the world, and the impact that decisions made now are having on people globally, and the impact it will have for years to come.

This is not about 'killing grandma' because we won't stay home. This is about 'killing people in Africa, Asia, Latin America' etc.

I understand that part of it but my issue and concern is back when this all started is the original cases came from people traveling to Canada. Its why I of the belief that to open the borders that some form of contact tracing or better screening has to be in place before the quarantine is dropped. Yes the borders should be open again soon but you can't just open them up and let it be a free for all.

 

[bavaria]

There are so many examples I could share. I spoke before about a Maasai school in Kenya which I have supported, and how the decision to close schools until next year means that these girls are at a great risk of child marriage and female mutilation. There is a forecast of 2,5 million additional child marriages globally due to the pandemic decisions. To tie into my India example above:

Gabrielle Szabo, senior gender policy adviser at Save the Children UK and author of the report, told The Lancet that the pandemic threatened to reverse 25 years of progress on child marriage, fuelled by school closures and economic destitution.

The charity is particularly concerned about the effects of COVID-19 on efforts to end child marriage across south Asia—a region home to countries with high rates of child marriage and large populations. An additional 200 000 girls in south Asia are expected to be forced into marriage this year.

Before the pandemic, India, which accounts for one in three child marriages globally, had become a world leader in working to reduce child marriage, through education and awareness. But a harsh, long lockdown, which was implemented with just a few hours' notice, left millions of daily labourers and migrant workers without any work, pushing millions more into poverty. India's economy contracted by almost 24% last quarter and schools remain closed across the country as tens of thousands of new COVID-19 cases continue to be recorded daily. Millions of families have been forced to consider child marriage to alleviate poverty.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32112-7/fulltext

 

[bavaria]

I understand that part of it but my issue and concern is back when this all started is the original cases came from people traveling to Canada. Its why I of the belief that to open the borders that some form of contact tracing or better screening has to be in place before the quarantine is dropped. Yes the borders should be open again soon but you can't just open them up and let it be a free for all.

With due respect, I don't believe that you do really understand, or perhaps you simply value your own personal self above all else (That is understandable, but exactly what the other poster meant about our privilege impacting others, and sometimes blinding us to reality)

Borders have opened. Yes, cases have risen, but in many areas deaths remain flat. There are only a handful of cases reported due to flights (I myself was on a flight recently which had someone test positive, and I am not concerned)

The fundamental question remains risk assessment. In Germany, just like in Canada, the majority of deaths were over age 80, and the average age of death around or even higher than the average mortality rate. This is a trend in much of the world, and the issue becomes if it is realistic to continue to impose restrictions to protect a few. Look to Montreal and to Melbourne - they both had/have strong restrictions, yet they had most deaths in the elderly population in care homes. Should the focus be on restricting the entire global population, or on improving conditions for the elderly?

Because we have never at any other time had a daily, global 'ticker' of cases and deaths for any other disease, people take the numbers without reference. I have pointed out that in many developed countries, 30x more people die daily from cancer than from COVID. (And that was at the height of the pandemic, the figure is much higher now of people dying daily from cancer vs COVID) Yet there is not any discussion about them. Frankly, if my years are limited due to my cancer, I don't want to be in a place which is restricting me (And I am very, very grateful that I did not take a job in Melbourne I had considered last year) Many older people feel the same way ie they have only a few months or years left and want to enjoy them. They know as we with cancer know that we will die at some point, and have had to face our mortality when many others are only now facing it (albeit with a much lower chance of dying from COVID than we have of dying from cancer, or old age)

 

[Jrb1979]

With due respect, I don't believe that you do really understand, or perhaps you simply value your own personal self above all else (That is understandable, but exactly what the other poster meant about our privilege impacting others, and sometimes blinding us to reality)

Borders have opened. Yes, cases have risen, but in many areas deaths remain flat. There are only a handful of cases reported due to flights (I myself was on a flight recently which had someone test positive, and I am not concerned)

The fundamental question remains risk assessment. In Germany, just like in Canada, the majority of deaths were over age 80, and the average age of death around or even higher than the average mortality rate. This is a trend in much of the world, and the issue becomes if it is realistic to continue to impose restrictions to protect a few. Look to Montreal and to Melbourne - they both had/have strong restrictions, yet they had most deaths in the elderly population in care homes. Should the focus be on restricting the entire global population, or on improving conditions for the elderly?

Because we have never at any other time had a daily, global 'ticker' of cases and deaths for any other disease, people take the numbers without reference. I have pointed out that in many developed countries, 30x more people die daily from cancer than from COVID. (And that was at the height of the pandemic, the figure is much higher now of people dying daily from cancer vs COVID) Yet there is not any discussion about them. Frankly, if my years are limited due to my cancer, I don't want to be in a place which is restricting me (And I am very, very grateful that I did not take a job in Melbourne I had considered last year) Many older people feel the same way ie they have only a few months or years left and want to enjoy them. They know as we with cancer know that we will die at some point, and have had to face our mortality when many others are only now facing it (albeit with a much lower chance of dying from COVID than we have of dying from cancer, or old age)

Let's all do what Sweden did for their older population so the rest of us can go back to normal. They pretty much locked up their seniors and you have to have special permission to visit them. Is that what you want? Cause it sure sounds like it. I frankly have no problem with how Canada and Ontario has handled this.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

Let's all do what Sweden did for their older population so the rest of us can go back to normal. They pretty much locked up their seniors and you have to have special permission to visit them. Is that what you want? Cause it sure sounds like it. I frankly have no problem with how Canada and Ontario has handled this.

You continue to miss her point. It’s your privilege that allows you to say that. Just like I can handle the restrictions I’m under here. We haven’t lost our jobs and are still able to pay our bills. We still have access to our medical care, including routine vaccinations. That is not true of many in the world, especially in 3rd world countries and countries that survive because of tourism. @bavaria clearly laid out the many ways people around the globe are being affected and you either are choosing to ignore it or will never get it.