Couple Arrested for Refusing to Pay Tip

[N.Bailey]

No, I don't.

And yes - call them. But as I asked earlier, please explain how if a CC report, with your ID, shows total sales - such and such and total tips - such and such, how on earth you could claim less???

I've been messing around online trying to find out the procedure at Outback, but I'm just sick and tired of looking. When I called, they assured me that they follow the law and that servers are required to declare all the tips they make. It was a standard, it's none of your business (LOL) type response.

I had talked to one of my friend's nieces who works at Olive Garden though. She backed up what you said about credit card tips, so I am officially conceding that point. She said that when she cashes out each night, the register makes them report their tips. Credit card ones are automatic, but she said everyone she knows claims such a small percent for their cash tips that they really don't turn in much over 10-12% of total sales per day (and she added that some probably don't turn in that much even). Oh and she said it's customary to tip out X % of gross sales to busser, bartender, etc. She said that's not based on tips at all.

So here is my official apology on that point. I am sorry and am eating crow.

I do want to say however that not every restaurant turns in credit card tips even though they are chain restaurants.

 

[CathrynRose]

So here is my official apology on that point. I am sorry and am eating crow.
.

Tol'ja I wasn't lying.

No apology necessary, however here:

FTR - no matter how good the service was, I would not tip for the above.

 

[CathrynRose]

Oh and she said it's customary to tip out X % of gross sales to busser, bartender, etc. She said that's not based on tips at all.

.

This is what Outback did, but when I was at O.G. (and heck - this was 15 years go) they hadn't implemented this yet. It was whatever the server felt that job was worht, that night (just like the customers) If a busser busted his butt for you, he was getting more than the one standing there, while you cleared a table.

I'm actually happy to hear they're doing it this way, though. Just makes it easier.

 

[N.Bailey]

Tol'ja I wasn't lying.

No apology necessary, however here:

FTR - no matter how good the service was, I would not tip for the above.

Hey, don't knock it till you try it. It's really not as bad as it appears.

 

[N.Bailey]

This is what Outback did, but when I was at O.G. (and heck - this was 15 years go) they hadn't implemented this yet. It was whatever the server felt that job was worht, that night (just like the customers) If a busser busted his butt for you, he was getting more than the one standing there, while you cleared a table.

I'm actually happy to hear they're doing it this way, though. Just makes it easier.

Well, she did tell me it was unofficial at OG, but that's the way it's handled, unofficially.

 

[SanFranciscan]

And this is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. The waitstaff makes an assumption about a person or group that they feel won't tip well. They don't pay them the attention that they should or treat them as well as they should, and therefore aren't tipped well. Then they say, "See I knew that they wouldn't tip well."

So far we have a 27-page debate because the problems caused by the tipping system are inevitable. We have a couple of customers going to trial, allegedly due to the tipping system. That's really terrible. For years after I stopped waiting tables I couldn't even go into a restaurant without apologizing for the fact that I am a woman. As ridiculous as it may sound, I have over-tipped to compensate for that. Customers who don't tip anyone but expect good service want the right to sue any restaurant giving them less than stellar service. We have all seen right here examples of the fights over taxing tips. On and on and on it goes. I believe that these problems are inevitable under the tipping system.

The only way a reward-for-good-service pay system is going to work realistically is if there is a per-head pay system. Then the large parties can get the most experienced servers. If you have been following this thread, you have read why larger parties are more labor intensive. As long as a large party can pull down a server's average in tips while increasing a server's workload and stress levels, the customers most in need of a skilled server will find themselves pretty consistently getting the flustered rookie who ought to be cutting his or her teeth at two tops or maybe counter service if there is a counter. If you are getting terrible service in a large party, the odds are high that you are sitting in the new person's section while you are in need of the senior server. No skin off of management's nose because servers persecuting each other won't be forming unions.

 

[Blue.Fairy2]

BTW, something is not right, anyway... 18% on $73 is $13.14...

that was the first thing I noticed

Like I said do you think not refil a drink is bad service? I don't

Used to be a server also and YES I think not refilling a drink is extremely BAD service! In fact I believe the diner should not have to wait on a drink (non alcoholic-of course) a refill should be offered or brought before the diner needs it not when the glass is empty!!!!

and YES it is the servers fault when the food order is messed up or takes forever...either stay on the cooks backside and get it done or on the expediter and make sure he/she gets it done!

After all as a server that is your job to serve the patron and make their dining experience enjoyable.

 

[N.Bailey]

I was just reading more at the link I posted upthread. While I'm not changing my opinion on the situation because regardless of the circumstance, I do not believe automatic tipping should be mandated, it does appear that the story has changed somewhat from the time it happened. One of the 2 actually filled out a review for the restaurant quite some time ago (and I certainly have no way of determining if it was indeed posted by one the parties involved).

From the link and if doesn't take you directly to page 4, just click to load the 4th page. The review was posted on 0/30/2009.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/lehigh-pub-bethlehem?rpp=40&sort_by=relevance_desc&start=120

My table of 6 waited over 120 minutes for our food in an EMPTY restaurant. Every time we needed our waitress she was no where to be found. When we wanted to get our check we found her outside smoking a cigarette. After we refused to pay the 20% tip that they automatically charged us, they had us ARRESTED!!! That was the second time i was there. The first time they forgot my order. I will NEVERRRRRR return to that awful place!

It jumped an additional hour, and it looks like the tip increased by 2% (though the actual tip amount doesn't add up using 18 or 20%). I am certainly not suggesting there is any willful deception going on here. Perhaps just more of the story came out over time, or it could even be chalked up to it being reported erroneously on the part of the media.

 

[N.Bailey]

The 2nd point I wanted to address (and this is at the same link on the top of the page), is the photos that IMO, represent a bit of how it played out. I can't really tell if it's the same guy or not, but look how the police may have arrested this guy. I am just stunned.

Again I'll give the caveat that you're trying to view photo 6 of 7 if it's not linked directly to that photo.
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/hnwOUvpdnYDkk46AigEpjw?select=xstvAmBxgp__D-crlmIXbg

If that's the guy, it's downright ridiculous. You'd think he was wanted for 1st degree murder or something.

 

[CathrynRose]

It jumped an additional hour, and it looks like the tip increased by 2% (though the actual tip amount doesn't add up using 18 or 20%). I am certainly not suggesting there is any willful deception going on here. Perhaps just more of the story came out over time, or it could even be chalked up to it being reported erroneously on the part of the media.

I still think they got items comped, and the grat was figured from the original, non-comped bill (which makes it look like more than 18%)

The 2nd point I wanted to address (and this is at the same link on the top of the page), is the photos that IMO, represent a bit of how it played out. I can't really tell if it's the same guy or not, but look how the police may have arrested this guy. I am just stunned.

Again I'll give the caveat that you're trying to view photo 6 of 7 if it's not linked directly to that photo.
http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/hnwOUvpdnYDkk46AigEpjw?select=xstvAmBxgp__D-crlmIXbg

If that's the guy, it's downright ridiculous. You'd think he was wanted for 1st degree murder or something.

That's not the guy. I think it's in the OP - but I saw a news video of the two.

People are just adding pics, now.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Again, as the customer of a restaurant, not my problem as to who is supposed to deliver them. Ultimately, regardless of the restaurants silverware delivery plan, the server is responsible for making sure that a customer has silverware....and drinks...and food.

Valid - IF you had been the customer, instead of an outside observer basing opinions on what is pretty apparently an incomplete, primarily one-sided report.

 

[kaytieeldr]

It was NOT a service charge. All of the articles I've read have quoted an employee of the pub who says that it's a gratuity. NOT a service charge.

And again I say, without having ever seen the restaurant's menu, I'm sure there is an indication at the bottom of each page of the menu stating, "18% service charge will be added to parties of 'x' or more". I don't care what a quoted employee calls it. The restaurant management/owner calls it a service charge.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I am also very well versed on a POS system since we used it where I worked too. It's up to a server to report their own tips, not the manager to babysit you and make sure you're doing your job by reporting your tips. You tell me where you work, or the restaurant you believe that turns in credit cards tips received on a server's tip report, and I'll gladly give them a call myself so they can set me straight.

Thanks, but I choose not to name the restaurant. Note that I don't work there.

However, please explain how one can ring up a sale of $100 and tax of $6.25 and present the check to the customer, who then adds $18 tip to the check and pays with a credit card... and then when the server rings the payment into the register how they can NOT account for that $18 in the system? As far as I know that can't be done.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Difference between gratuity and service charge:

Gratuity

Hamburger....$6.00
Fries............$2.00
Drink............$2.00
Food total...$10.00
tax (8%).....$ 0.80

Total bill.....$10.80

Gratuity (18% before tax): $1.80

Total customer gives out: $12.60


Service Charge:

Hamburger..................$6.00
Fries..........................$2.00
Drink..........................$2.00
Food total...............$10.00
Service charge (18%)....$1.80
Total.........................$11.80
tax (8%)....................$ 0.95
Total customer gives out: $12.75

Note the extra 15 cents for the customer with the service charge. This is due to the fact that a service charge needs to be taxed whereas a gratuity does not.

The restaurant would have to claim that $1.80 as profit, collect the 15 cents tax on it, report it and then give the server their $1.80.

What people are trying to say here it that by trying to make a gratuity mandatory, the restaurant is trying to sidestep the law by not charging the tax, therefore not having to include it in their profit reporting.

Gratuities are not mandatory, therefore, when received, it goes directly to the server and the tax reporting falls to the server to report it as income.

A mandatory service charge is taxable and not only does the restaurant have to claim it as profit, but the server also then has to claim their share as income.

The bar might be in big trouble by mandating gratuities and not doing the proper IRS reporting.

Great explanation and demonstration, Mickey's Minion - thanks! Yes, even though this refutes some of what I've posted I didn't know the restaurant has to tax the service charge, but the profit is offset by the payroll portion - and while the issue hasn't been raised (yet that I've seen), they would also have to report and pay that extra fifteen cents tax to the state's tax department

 

[kaytieeldr]

Well, if it was what you ordered and prepared the way you requested and served in a timely manner - why wouldn't you tip?

 

[curious3069]

Valid - IF you had been the customer, instead of an outside observer basing opinions on what is pretty apparently an incomplete, primarily one-sided report.

Nope, valid ever single time I walk into a restaurant. In fact, valid in every single instance anyone walks into a restaurant. Why would it ever be different regardless if it is this case or any other??

 

[smidgy]

wow, haven't read all 28 pages.

Disney DOES require 18% gratuity on parties of 6 or more. if you have a problem with it, you can speak to a manager.

that being said, where I work, I can't imagine a situation where the police would be called., over a tip. however, if the people were that unhappy, I would drop the automatic gratuity myself! never would I insist on the tip to the point of having the police called. bad, bad PR!!!
either the management dropped the ball here, in which case there is NO excuse for having patrons ARRRESTED over a tip (sheesh!, these people were not happy with their service at all, and, if approaching management about it, should NOT have to pay the tip, no matter the "policy",) or, there is more to this story than meets the eye.

even at Disney, who require an automatic 18% gratuity for parties of 6 or more(even if you are on sep. checks), there is recourse for poor service. speak to the manager. in this case, it seems the manager called the police.
perhaps the customers were hostile. maybe they wee unrully,and drunk, and insisted he whole bill be comped? who knows?
sounds really weird. If a party told me I really didn't deserve the 18% auto., I would drop it and say, "whatever you think is appropriate". as a server, I would write the whole evening off as a BUST before I would involve the police! talk about bad , not just bad publicity, but not a very "welcoming" feeling to the restaurant!
neither I nor my employers would have a party arrested for NOT paying a tip.
(even though it is stated on the menu, for parties of 6 or more). how silly. that's the only word I can think of... silly.
If the facts stated in this story are just as stated,this restaurant will not(and shoud not) be in business long.... or.. there is more to this story than meets the eye.?

 

[smidgy]

The examples you gave are not the server's fault, but the way the server reacts to the problems are the things I base my tip on. If the server never swings by to see if the food is okay, I won't be happy and I won't tip well. On the other hand I've tipped before after getting food that was raw in the middle because the server handled the situation so well. I've sat for 20 minutes waiting for the server to acknowledge me as she rushed back and forth to the other tables. Other times I've had to wait that long, but the server stopped by long enough to say she was sorry for the wait and would be back soon. You can guess which one got the better tip. To me, the communication is the most important thing. If the server is doing the best she can and acknowledges it when there's a problem or an excessively long wait, I'll be happy with the service even if I'm not happy with the food or restaurant. But an inattentive server who doesn't communicate is not going to get a good tip from me even if the restaurant and food are great.

.)

bless you!!!!!!

 

[smidgy]

If it's labeled as a gratuity, it's not the property of the business, so no, they should not be held liable for the tax burden on the tip.

IF however they want to get around the law and call it a service charge, that would then would make it the property of the business and should be fully taxable as profit for said business.

That's what they're going to try to do, IMO and some already have. They label it a service charge because the courts have said automatic tipping is illegal. So, they want to add the service charge, but then want to hand it off to the wait staff and bypass the law. It will be curious to follow it thru the years as cases come up, but a very strong argument could be made that they are trying to defraud the customer.

wow, this is a more heated arguement than even I expected! but as to this particular point..just curious...

how does this automatic 18% gratuity, and all these laws,figure in to Disney's "policy" of applying an 18% gratuity to parties of 6 or more? just check the "tipping info thread". just asking......
are you guys saying Disney is doing someting illegal? it has been clearly stated that parties of 6 or more will have this gratuity applied. right or wrong, this is Disney's policy.
(personally, I usually choose NOT to add the "auto" tip. I "risk" it. )usually, I end up getting more anyways. once in a while, I can "just tell", that I should add it (you get to read people after a while) then I do, but only if that large group took up so much of my time that I couldnt ethically take any other extra tables ( I want the other servers to make money too, and I want customers to be happy. even if they are not MY customers tonight, I want them to come back... they might be my customers next week).

so, it's a risk... I give up other tables, to spend time on this one big one. even if I kill myself tending to their every need... how do Iknow they don't have an "I don't need to tip much, not my job, their employer should pay them more" philosophy?which is becoming more pervasive). well, many times,I take the risk.
apparently, Disney doesn't want their servers to take this risk, and wants all their customers to be happy. so.. Is Disney wrng.. or worse,,illegal? in applying the auto. 18% for parties of 6 or more? (I would think if it were illegal, Disney would have researched this)

 

[MIGrandma]

You have got to be freaking kidding me?!

Please tell me, how is it the server's fault when she has written down the order as follows: Burger, well done, with ketchup, mustard, lettuce and tomato. And the cook puts a slice of cheese on it. You go to pick up the order and see there is cheese on it. The customer did not order cheese. You tell the cook, he then has to cook a whole new burger because you really can't just scrape the cheese off and serve it. Please tell me how, on God's green earth, can that be the fault of the server???

And now this order is going to take even longer because of having to cook another burger. Thick, fat burger patties take awhile to cook when the customer wants it well done. And if a mistake was made, BY THE COOK, then it's going to take even longer. Please tell me how THIS is the server's fault???

Yes, this happened to me at work. And many other orders were messed up by the COOK even though I had written the order correctly (and yes, my handwriting is legible). The only thing the server would be at fault for in these cases, would be if she didn't go to the table and explain what was going on. I always tried to inform my customers when something happened like that, and 99% of the time they were understanding and just appreciated being informed. But occasionally there was the customer who still held it against me, the server. For something that was NOT my fault.