Couple Arrested for Refusing to Pay Tip

[dbriggsq]

Who are you quoting, because half that text in what you quoted, isn't mine - and it shows as being all mine.[/QUOTE]

It's part of my post 271 - don't know why it hasn't come through in proper quotes.

 

[dbriggsq]

Who are you quoting, because half that text in what you quoted, isn't mine - and it shows as being all mine.

This is part of my post 271 - don't know why the quotes haven't come out properly

 

[SanFranciscan]

I said that me and my DH had just returned to the UK from a 2 week trip to the US and had both noticed, on separate occasions, that quite a lot of people, not all obviously, did seem to treat servers badly and we discussed whether this was due to the tipping culture in the US which maintains the position of the server as more of a 'servant' who needs to perform exactly as the patron wishes in order to 'earn' a tip.

I try to stay away from any personal comments because I would really like to see a structured and interesting discussion on the culture of tipping and if there is any way we can get away from it to a situation which is fair to all - where servers are treated as professionals by being paid a proper wage and patrons know exactly what they will pay at the start of the meal and can have a relaxed meal without the more 'obsequious' servers popping up every five minutes to ask if there is anything they can do for you.

I think that you are right that the tipping system needs to be buried. The profit margin on food is so small that management doesn't want to come out when the server requests it because he knows that the complaining customer's goal is free food. Customers with enough sense to dot an i know that management does not care about a customer's personal problems. Management just wants the flunky to get rid of this complainer without losing any of the company's money in the process so customers stiff the server for something not the server's fault or walk out without paying their bill, and then management will force the server to pay that bill. I worked in a tourist gift shop connected to a restaurant and bar and saw a number of servers quit rather than pay up to keep the job.

People who eat at the same establishment on a regular basis are much more likely to tip out of self interest. Customers who know that they will never see that server again are a whole another story of course, and that explains the much lower employee turnover in neighborhood places than in the places seen along the highway.

Customers eating alone usually tip quite well. When I waited tables years and years ago, I could make as much or more off of someone eating alone as I could off of a large party where the potential for abuse was so much higher because the large parties felt safety in numbers to make demands that couldn't be met by an octopus on roller skates. Even well-behaved customers tipped less, if at all, when part of a group because they couldn't be fingered as the cad. I am sure that is why restaurants started adding the service charge to give servers some incentive to wait on large parties instead of trying to force them onto other servers while the large party was kept waiting because no one wanted that table.

Another can of worms is that certain kinds of customers are known for not tipping and are treated accordingly. I am a woman who feels a certain obligation to remember the women who will follow me when I am dealing with tipped employees. We are known the world over for being much pickier than men and tipping badly. It also breaks down along racial lines with Asians known for tipping well while Blacks, even those in really nice cars and clothes, are known for being extremely cheap. Without the tipping system, servers could afford to treat all customers the same. Those relying upon tips want their tables filled with customers most likely the shell out at the end of their meal because they have to think of their obligations to the families and their creditors and don't want to hear any sociological blather about how "understanding" they should be when they are stiffed by someone they worked hard for.

 

[LUCiD]

*Pinches self hoping this is another wacked dream of hers.* I'm still awake? Darn. Anyways, this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of, and I've heard of a lot of stupid things! A tip is NEVER mandatory! I doubt the judge will really sentence those people to jail. Also, now I highly doubt the restaurant will ever have to worry about such a busy day ever again.

 

[N.Bailey]

Right. The article/s and forum discussions call it a gratuity. However, as I said, I'm sure the wording on the menu is service charge.

I don't recall using or implying 'conspiracy' and refuse to be responsible for what is inferred. Agreed, it's not the restaurant industry's responsibility to create laws. It IS any industry's implicit responsibility to treat its employees and its customers reasonably and fairly.

Common sense can, though.

No disrespect intended your way, but your posts are based on emotion rather than the law.

A service charge IS the property of the establishment and as such is subject to being taxed. A gratuity (and it was stated it was labeled gratuity whether you wish to live in a fantasy world and believe otherwise or not), is the property of the waitstaff. If it's labeled as a service charge and is handed over to the server, it's indeed a gratuity, but it's just a way that the restaurant is trying to curtail the law. I'd highly suggest such a restaurant never call the police on anyone because they may find themselves in some deep doo doo.

I am also very well versed on a POS system since we used it where I worked too. It's up to a server to report their own tips, not the manager to babysit you and make sure you're doing your job by reporting your tips. You tell me where you work, or the restaurant you believe that turns in credit cards tips received on a server's tip report, and I'll gladly give them a call myself so they can set me straight.

 

[CathrynRose]

You tell me where you work, or the restaurant you believe that turns in credit cards tips received on a server's tip report, and I'll gladly give them a call myself so they can set me straight.

Any of the Darden Industries - Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Bahama Breeze.

Another option to call - Outback Steakhouse.

OR - as I told you earlier - any of your national chains (Chili's, TIGF, Applebee's, etc etc etc)

I'm not sure why you're still hung up on this. I promise you - CC tips are reported at 100%. I have no reason to lie to you (or anyone) about this.

 

[CathrynRose]

ON a smaller scale - lets say you have one table - and that table's check was $100, paid on CC, with a $20 tip.

Please tell me how, when your restaurant sends your sales amount of your one check - that is obviously documented, that your tip of $20, could not be kept track of, or lied about, when it's printed off????

 

[N.Bailey]

Silverware, napkins, and drinks are the responsibility of the person/s designated by the restaurant. Since (a) we don't know who in this location is responsible for placing the napkins and silverware on the table and (b) surely in the time this party waited for their food they could have asked someone on the staff for the missing items, we can't say for sure who to 'blame'. Yes, the server is likely responsible for the drinks - but we also don't know how long the person who went to the bar waited before doing that. And since that person directly invoked the services of the bartender - who ultimately was the person to whom the check was given and paid, according to the article - by refusing to pay the service charge, this party was directly 'stiffing', in part, that bartender.

And to be frankly honest, a customer doesn't care whose responsibility it is to bring these things. They ONLY know if they're going to be eating in such a restaurant, they will NEED them.

It's absurd to try and insinuate that a guest is suppose to sit there thinking, I wonder who isn't bringing me all the things that I need? Is it the server's fault? Should I dock their pay? Get real. I don't care who is responsible, if I don't have these things, I fully expect MY server to get them for me.

I waited tables for 12 years and I would NEVER brush my responsibilities off to another employee whether I was at fault or not. I'd just get them and be happy that my guests had them. I would also NEVER go to a message board and defend any server just because they have it all so rough and are entitled.

 

[N.Bailey]

*Pinches self hoping this is another wacked dream of hers.* I'm still awake? Darn. Anyways, this is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of, and I've heard of a lot of stupid things! A tip is NEVER mandatory! I doubt the judge will really sentence those people to jail. Also, now I highly doubt the restaurant will ever have to worry about such a busy day ever again.

Post of the day.

If this is the general feeling, I'd say the restaurant has about all the PR it needs.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/lehigh-pub-bethlehem

 

[Mickey's Minion]

Difference between gratuity and service charge:

Gratuity

Hamburger....$6.00
Fries............$2.00
Drink............$2.00
Food total...$10.00
tax (8%).....$ 0.80

Total bill.....$10.80

Gratuity (18% before tax): $1.80

Total customer gives out: $12.60


Service Charge:

Hamburger..................$6.00
Fries..........................$2.00
Drink..........................$2.00
Food total...............$10.00
Service charge (18%)....$1.80
Total.........................$11.80
tax (8%)....................$ 0.95
Total customer gives out: $12.75

Note the extra 15 cents for the customer with the service charge. This is due to the fact that a service charge needs to be taxed whereas a gratuity does not.

The restaurant would have to claim that $1.80 as profit, collect the 15 cents tax on it, report it and then give the server their $1.80.

What people are trying to say here it that by trying to make a gratuity mandatory, the restaurant is trying to sidestep the law by not charging the tax, therefore not having to include it in their profit reporting.

Gratuities are not mandatory, therefore, when received, it goes directly to the server and the tax reporting falls to the server to report it as income.

A mandatory service charge is taxable and not only does the restaurant have to claim it as profit, but the server also then has to claim their share as income.

The bar might be in big trouble by mandating gratuities and not doing the proper IRS reporting.

 

[N.Bailey]

Any of the Darden Industries - Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Bahama Breeze.

Another option to call - Outback Steakhouse.

OR - as I told you earlier - any of your national chains (Chili's, TIGF, Applebee's, etc etc etc)

I'm not sure why you're still hung up on this. I promise you - CC tips are reported at 100%. I have no reason to lie to you (or anyone) about this.

I have friends that work at Olive Garden and Red Lobster and neither ever automatically turned in credit card tips for the server. I will gladly make those 2 calls though.

You're just naming restaurants. I could have done that. I was asking SPECIFICALLY for ones that turn the tips in, not simply asking for chain names. I have friends at TGIF's and Applebee's too.

 

[bethbuchall]

Another can of worms is that certain kinds of customers are known for not tipping and are treated accordingly. I am a woman who feels a certain obligation to remember the women who will follow me when I am dealing with tipped employees. We are known the world over for being much pickier than men and tipping badly. It also breaks down along racial lines with Asians known for tipping well while Blacks, even those in really nice cars and clothes, are known for being extremely cheap. Without the tipping system, servers could afford to treat all customers the same. Those relying upon tips want their tables filled with customers most likely the shell out at the end of their meal because they have to think of their obligations to the families and their creditors and don't want to hear any sociological blather about how "understanding" they should be when they are stiffed by someone they worked hard for.

And this is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. The waitstaff makes an assumption about a person or group that they feel won't tip well. They don't pay them the attention that they should or treat them as well as they should, and therefore aren't tipped well. Then they say, "See I knew that they wouldn't tip well."

 

[CathrynRose]

The bar might be in big trouble by mandating gratuities and not doing the proper IRS reporting.

How do you know they're not, though?

 

[N.Bailey]

ON a smaller scale - lets say you have one table - and that table's check was $100, paid on CC, with a $20 tip.

Please tell me how, when your restaurant sends your sales amount of your one check - that is obviously documented, that your tip of $20, could not be kept track of, or lied about, when it's printed off????

The restaurants expect you to turn a tip report in once a week (1 dive in our town did it daily years ago, but aside from that, it was weekly reports or amounts off the register's sales, 8%).

They don't keep track of every credit card tip you have for the week, then compare it to your tip report at the end of the week. While they may keep track of ALL credit cards tips to some capacity (but I'd even question that), they're not going to pull your weekly credit card statements out and compare them to your weekly tip report making sure you did the job you were supposed to do. Yeah, they have time for that!!! Let's compare 60 tip reports every week to make sure our servers aren't cheating the IRS.

Turning in tips has always been on the honor system. Now, if a certain % isn't claimed by the waitstaff, allocation can occur at the end of the year. If however, you keep track of your hours and tips for the entire year, the IRS cannot make you pay on that allocation. Of course, we ALL know, the waitstaff claims 100% of the tips received.

 

[LuvCuteBoys]

Difference between gratuity and service charge:

Gratuity

Hamburger....$6.00
Fries............$2.00
Drink............$2.00
Food total...$10.00
tax (8%).....$ 0.80

Total bill.....$10.80

Gratuity (18% before tax): $1.80

Total customer gives out: $12.60


Service Charge:

Hamburger..................$6.00
Fries..........................$2.00
Drink..........................$2.00
Food total...............$10.00
Service charge (18%)....$1.80
Total.........................$11.80
tax (8%)....................$ 0.95
Total customer gives out: $12.75

Note the extra 15 cents for the customer with the service charge. This is due to the fact that a service charge needs to be taxed whereas a gratuity does not.

The restaurant would have to claim that $1.80 as profit, collect the 15 cents tax on it, report it and then give the server their $1.80.

What people are trying to say here it that by trying to make a gratuity mandatory, the restaurant is trying to sidestep the law by not charging the tax, therefore not having to include it in their profit reporting.

Gratuities are not mandatory, therefore, when received, it goes directly to the server and the tax reporting falls to the server to report it as income.

A mandatory service charge is taxable and not only does the restaurant have to claim it as profit, but the server also then has to claim their share as income.

The bar might be in big trouble by mandating gratuities and not doing the proper IRS reporting.

 

[N.Bailey]

How do you know they're not, though?

I don't have a clue. I do know however that the courts have said in the past that a gratuity is a gift and cannot be automatically imposed. Now granted, this has never went to the US Supreme Court (ROFLMAO), so until that time, another court may rule differently, but as it is now, it just can't be enforced.

A service charge is NOT the property of the server. It is the property of the establishment. If that establishment is trying to curtail the law, then they themselves should face prosecution, IMO. Time will tell on that, but if it were stated as a service charge and I was that couple (though there is no indication that's the case), I'd have my lawyers on that like flies on you know what.

I can't even think of a valid argument that the restaurant could make to get a court to rule on their side.

EDIT: I am talking about a legal argument, not simply an argument of any kind.

 

[CathrynRose]

I have friends that work at Olive Garden and Red Lobster and neither ever automatically turned in credit card tips for the server. I will gladly make those 2 calls though.

You're just naming restaurants. I could have done that. I was asking SPECIFICALLY for ones that turn the tips in, not simply asking for chain names. I have friends at TGIF's and Applebee's too.

No, I'm not. I worked at Olive Garden, I worked at Outback - I also worked at a privately owned Steak/Chop House - and my tips were reported - nightly. And at 100% of CC tips.

Again - how can you say "I only got $3" when your CC print out shows $10?

And what (not aimed at specifically you) is this fixation with servers scamming the IRS?

The restaurants expect you to turn a tip report in once a week (1 dive in our town did it daily years ago, but aside from that, it was weekly reports or amounts off the register's sales, 8%).


Of course, we ALL know, the waitstaff claims 100% of the tips received.

No, nightly. When you cashed out. Did you keep your cash and CC slips with you, all week? Didn't you get your CC tips deducted from the total sales of cash, you needed to turn in - that night?


And I'm not sure about you, or anyone else - but many servers, myself included claimed all of my tips. I had no reason, not to.


ETA - The bars I was at, turned in those CC tips, too.

Where did you work?

 

[N.Bailey]

No, I'm not. I worked at Olive Garden, I worked at Outback - I also worked at a privately owned Steak/Chop House - and my tips were reported - nightly. And at 100% of CC tips.

Again - how can you say "I only got $3" when your CC print out shows $10?

And what (not aimed at specifically you) is this fixation with servers scamming the IRS?



No, nightly. When you cashed out. Did you keep your cash and CC slips with you, all week? Didn't you get your CC tips deducted from the total sales of cash, you needed to turn in - that night?


And I'm not sure about you, or anyone else - but many servers, myself included claimed all of my tips. I had no reason, not to.


ETA - The bars I was at, turned in those CC tips, too.

Where did you work?

I will be phoning both Olive Garden and Outback later on this afternoon and will reply back to the thread once I do.

My fixation with scamming the IRS? Really, I don't care who turns in what, but to try and insinuate that most waitstaff reports ALL of their income is silly. I think we both know that's not true.

 

[CathrynRose]

I will be phoning both Olive Garden and Outback later on this afternoon and will reply back to the thread once I do.

My fixation with scamming the IRS? Really, I don't care who turns in what, but to try and insinuate that most waitstaff reports ALL of their income is silly. I think we both know that's not true.

No, I don't.

And yes - call them. But as I asked earlier, please explain how if a CC report, with your ID, shows total sales - such and such and total tips - such and such, how on earth you could claim less???

 

[brucec32]

I didn't read all the posts, but it occured to me that the police may have a problem if those arrested have a good lawyer.

Were the suspects still at the restaurant? If so, they made no effort to avoid paying, were simply in the midst of a negoation over a CIVIL MATTER. It is not the police's function to adjudicate civil disputes. They might have a wrongful arrest suit here. Getting arrested and booked is pretty traumatic and potentially expensive.

Sometimes bar owners have "friends" on the force who they use as their muscle. Sounds like it's possible an officer got overzealous and arrested someone. I used to run an operation where we had drunks and other complainers who'd get out of hand and we would simply call over a friendly officer who ALWAYS took out side. They'd have a legit complaint sometimes, but the officer always threatened THEM with arrest if they didn't either pay up, leave, or shut up. (I was limited by my bosses in what I could do to satisfy their demands, and eventually I left because of this sort of thing). These same officers were given food, invited to parties we threw, and some even dated our female staffers. So obviously they were "homers" for our side.

The devil is in the details of course. If they gave them one last chance to pay and they refused to do so and refused to leave, etc, then you might have a case where you'd need to arrest them.

Still, in the end, "mandatory" gratuities are obnoxious and is asking for hard feelings with your patrons. Part of the cost of doing business sometimes is just getting a bad tip from a large party. My wife was a waitress. She said she didn't mind large parties as per-hour, she made more for the work. Some wait staff just find them a hassle and want a huge tip, which is understandable. But on average, they do ok.