Couple Arrested for Refusing to Pay Tip

[Papa Deuce]

Me too, and if the person who said they thought some of the bill might have been comped is correct, it would imply that they did indeed speak with management.

It just doesn't make much sense. The bottom line for me is, while they may be cheap (assuming they lied about everything and I'm not conceding that at all), this is simply not enforceable and it's very bad PR.

They're wasting the court's time, just like they wasted the taxpayers money by calling the police in the first place.

And the police just flat out acted stupidly. If nothing else, they could have consulted a judge before arresting anybody. I'm pretty sure that these folks were not flight risks or dangerous. If they needed to be arrested, they could be arrested later.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Can I tell you a story?

I served and bartended for many years. One time I had a 12 top - and we also clearly had stated on the menu "18% gratuity added to tables of 8 or more"

I served - very efficiently - a table of 12. When everyone was done, and it was check time, my manager had a custom of doing a drive by. Going out to the table and asking "How was everything? How was the service tonight?" things like that. I passed (of course ) with flying colors. "She was great, it was great, blah blah blah"

They then asked for the check to be split. Everyone wanted their own check. That's fine. But 18% was still getting tacked on to each check.

Long story short - the fit they threw was ridiculous. "We had separate checks!!!" they exclaimed. My manager went back to them "But I thought you said the service was great, everything was great?" It was, but they didn't want to have to tip.

That was what they said. They didn't want to have to tip. I don't want to tip out my busser, my bar and my host - but I have to. Why should I literally pay to have you sit and hog my 2 big tables all night? Because by not tipping me, that is exactly what you're doing.

My manager paid my tip. My manager had to give me his own money, because they didn't want to have to tip.

Do I think they should be arrested? I dont know. I do know that the tip is added to the bill - so in the laws eye's, the patron is not paying their bill. Why can't they be arrested?

Exactly!!!!!

 

[kaytieeldr]

I see you have it in for me because I disagree with you. I tip because I want to, not because I have to. Others agreed with me.



Huh. Now you're putting words in my mouth. Have fun with that.

The comment was directed at the RESTAURANT. If they are forcing people to pay this "gratuity", the comment was made that they should have to claim it along with the price of the meal as part of their profit. I didn't know how that worked, which is why I asked.

Thanks for overreacting, though

So are you advocating the IRS be able to collect twice on the mandatory service charge - once from the restaurant that collects it, and a second time from the server to whom it gets distributed? Not putting words in anyone's mouth, just trying to confirm what's being said.

By the way, it's not a "gratuity". It's a mandatory service charge - a charge for service provided.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I never worked anywhere that reported credit card tips as tips received. It's always been based on % of sales (8%). I honestly cannot even wrap my head around a way a restaurant could keep track of this (unless every tip is on file). There would be no way for the management staff to separate all that.

Then, respectfully, you are severely underestimating the capabilities of both a restaurant's computerized POS system and its office/accounting personnel. To thint that there is no way for the management staff to separate the credit card tip from the actual sale is equivalent to assuming they can't separate the tax from the actual sale. Of course they can - do both. Easily. Everything has to balance.

Cash tips are, of course, entirely different. The tip amount is not indicated on the check, so the server can't ring it in when entering the payment.

You MUST report 8% of sales (in my store you'd get allocated if you didn't).

No. The restaurant must report the tip as being 8% of the check where the tip can't be determined - as in when cash is left for the tip. When the tip is paid by credit card and so rung into the cash register, the restaurant knows and reports the actual amount of the tip.

 

[kaytieeldr]

No her question is that since it was required, the restaurants should have to record it in their gross revenue, just like regular food sales. Your regular tips don't hit the company's income statement and I suspect these 18% fees don't either.

The quoted poster isn't (I think) the only one who thinks this.
The service charge, or the tip/gratuity, should not hit the company's income statement since they are not income for the restaurant. It is income for the server, and is reported as such on their pay statements and to the IRS.

And yes, the IRS does know about these service charges. It's not as if the restaurant is trying to hide anything.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Well happygril you are happy but I fear you are clearly should not be speaking on this subject. If it takes a server spitting in your face for not to leave a tip then you should excuse yourself from this conversation.

It's hyperbole.

 

[kaytieeldr]

So if a restaurant prints on its menu that
Parties of 8 or more will have a mandatory apple pie added to their bill

Then I gotta eat it right?

Eat it? No, but you have to accept it AND post the name and location of the restaurant!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Silverware, napkins and drinks are the servers responsibilities though! I am a former waitress, and tips are optional....TIP (To Insure Promptness). I have left a few dirty upsidedown pennies (that's considered an insult) for other waitstaff when I was not given good service. In this economy, no establishment should be providing paying customers bad service.

I can't believe they called the police over a tip, talk about chasing away your customers!

Silverware, napkins, and drinks are the responsibility of the person/s designated by the restaurant. Since (a) we don't know who in this location is responsible for placing the napkins and silverware on the table and (b) surely in the time this party waited for their food they could have asked someone on the staff for the missing items, we can't say for sure who to 'blame'. Yes, the server is likely responsible for the drinks - but we also don't know how long the person who went to the bar waited before doing that. And since that person directly invoked the services of the bartender - who ultimately was the person to whom the check was given and paid, according to the article - by refusing to pay the service charge, this party was directly 'stiffing', in part, that bartender.

 

[kaytieeldr]

No. We are not talking about a service charge. We are talking about a GRATUITY

No. If we were talking about a gratuity, it would be labeled 'gratuity' on the menu. It's a charge for service, i.e. service charge.

BTW, does anybody else see this happening? 8 people go into a restaurant and ask for 2 tables, side by side, so that they can have 2 different checks and avoid all the 18% gratuity nonsense that is not imposed on tables of 4?

Disney already addresses this, so it's not unreasonable to expect that other restaurant companies do as well:
Parties of six or more seated at one table are assessed the 18% service charge.
Parties of six or more seated at separate tables which have the same server are assessed the 18% service charge.
Parties of six or more seated at separate tables which have different servers* are exempt from the 18% service charge - unless one or more of those tables has six or more Guests seated at it.

*Likely that separate tables with different servers would not be adjacent to each other, making group interaction difficult/impossible.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Actually, I looked into this as best I could last night and did indeed say a gratuity, not a service charge.

Right. The article/s and forum discussions call it a gratuity. However, as I said, I'm sure the wording on the menu is service charge.

I don't think there was a conspiracy out there that declared large parties don't tip or under tip. It's also not the restaurant industry's job to create laws.

I don't recall using or implying 'conspiracy' and refuse to be responsible for what is inferred. Agreed, it's not the restaurant industry's responsibility to create laws. It IS any industry's implicit responsibility to treat its employees and its customers reasonably and fairly.

I do agree it would be nice if they'd speak to the manager, but again, the law can't mandate the customer do that.

Common sense can, though.

 

[curious3069]

So are you advocating the IRS be able to collect twice on the mandatory service charge - once from the restaurant that collects it, and a second time from the server to whom it gets distributed? Not putting words in anyone's mouth, just trying to confirm what's being said.

By the way, it's not a "gratuity". It's a mandatory service charge - a charge for service provided.

Um, The IRS does collect twice, every single day...they collect tax on the income a business makes and then collect tax in the form of payroll taxes from that businesses employees. If it's truely a service charge, not a gratuity, then it's the business' income, just as the markup on food would be income. It sounds, however, that this is a "service charge" which is really a mandatory gratuity.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I think the whole 'tipping' culture is completely outdated and oldfashioned in a modern society. It maintains a 'master/servant' relationship when we should be looking for a 'client/professional' relationship.

We live in the UK and have just returned from a 2 week trip to Florida and we both noted how a lot of patrons in restaurants treat servers quite badly - barely even looking up to say thank you when food is presented and being quite demanding. These 2 comments show both sides of the relationship.



Originally Posted by CathrynRose
Because we are the only ones who know and have experienced how hard it is, how it is looked down upon and how absolutely foul people can be to us.

I'm 36 and been in an office environment for 10 years, now. I can tell you I've never seen any of my office workers, cry. HOWEVER, I have seen each and every single one of my female servers, break down after a customer was just plain ugly, to them.

It surely is time that restaurant workers were paid a proper wage and treated like professionals - I don't believe service would suffer - the management should be able to make sure their staff did a good job.

Yes restaurants can charge a service charge - but I think this should be per head and not a percentage of the spend - why should it cost more to serve expensive food than cheaper food - or pull the cork out of a $50 wine than a $30.

I believe that in New Zealand tipping is still very rare and only ever for exceptional service - my Aunt in NZ tells me that eating out is a pleasure.

So I now treat servers poorly through my whole meal b/c I stated that I stiff servers to teach them a lesson.

Perhaps you missed my 3 examples:

1. A server OINKED at me in his good humor, insulting and ruining my meal. Sure he cannot be resposnible for my low self esteem--but hello, I'm sure he learned to never do it again. I opted to not report him b/c I really didn't want him fired.

2. A server who didn't serve my table at all. Another server and mgmt got invovled as we didn't know who our server was. I tipped the server who helped us. I wanted to tip the "real" server zero, my DH left her something minimal. I whole heartedly disagreed. Tipping for no work is asenine.

3. On our honeymoon cruise due to a humiliating experience that I'm not going to go into as I'm sure others might not see it a big deal, but WE did and us being embarrassed is all that is important.

In all 3 instances, were were nothing but polite customers. Not rude at all. We do say please, we do say thank you.

Presuming that I'm part of the demanding crowd? Please.

You know know what they say about those who assume.

How did you get out of ANY of my posts that *I* treated servers badly?

It seems that folks need to look up "tip"/"gratuity" in the dictionary and remember what it's purpose is.

It isn't "stealing" as another poster put it when someone provides BAD service. They didn't earn anything.

All we want is a nice meal--and we expect to be treated nicely. We will treat the server nicely regardless and then adjust our tip accordingly on the rare occasion that the server's work ethic is sadly lacking.

And I sleep well at night.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Restaurant industry in the U.S. as a whole has determined that, generally, large parties undertip. Everybody thinks somebody else got the tip, or when they split the bill either people undercalculate the tip or just don't take it into account, etc. Mandatory service charge listed on each - or even just one - menu page, with its conditions, is designed to avoid this problem.

Just as when one orders a $7 appetizer or a $16 entree or a $2 soda or a market-price lobster, one expects to have pay the amount listed on the menu or quoted by the server, parties consisting of the indicated number of diners or more should reasonably expect to have to pay the posted percentage as the service charge.

It doesn't make it the law of the land though.

They can be expected, but it is not legally enforceable. Hence calling the cops--poor judgement, and likely the final nail in the coffin of this establishment.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Reading the article, it doesn't appear the server had any issue with the lack of service charge. The person who took the check and the money - i.e. the bartender - did, and is the one who called the police when the customer refused to provide enough money to cover the entire check total.

The quote of me that you included in your post regarding ENTITLEMENT issues, pertained to some posters on this thread and was in no way reflective of those in the restaurant since I wasn't there to know.

I.e. the poster who actually thinks it is a good thing that the cops were called--a good thing the couple got arrested.

The restaurant can have whatever on their menu that they want, but it doesn't make it legally enforceable.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No. If we were talking about a gratuity, it would be labeled 'gratuity' on the menu. It's a charge for service, i.e. service charge.

Disney already addresses this, so it's not unreasonable to expect that other restaurant companies do as well:
Parties of six or more seated at one table are assessed the 18% service charge.
Parties of six or more seated at separate tables which have the same server are assessed the 18% service charge.
Parties of six or more seated at separate tables which have different servers* are exempt from the 18% service charge - unless one or more of those tables has six or more Guests seated at it.

*Likely that separate tables with different servers would not be adjacent to each other, making group interaction difficult/impossible.

Disney will also allow you to reduce that tip and not have you arrested if you did not feel service was up to snuff.

They cannot legally obligate you to pay for it and it certainly can be reduced.

 

[curious3069]

Silverware, napkins, and drinks are the responsibility of the person/s designated by the restaurant. Since (a) we don't know who in this location is responsible for placing the napkins and silverware on the table and (b) surely in the time this party waited for their food they could have asked someone on the staff for the missing items, we can't say for sure who to 'blame'. Yes, the server is likely responsible for the drinks - but we also don't know how long the person who went to the bar waited before doing that. And since that person directly invoked the services of the bartender - who ultimately was the person to whom the check was given and paid, according to the article - by refusing to pay the service charge, this party was directly 'stiffing', in part, that bartender.

Again, as the customer of a restaurant, not my problem as to who is supposed to deliver them. Ultimately, regardless of the restaurants silverware delivery plan, the server is responsible for making sure that a customer has silverware....and drinks...and food.

 

[LuvCuteBoys]

I don't particularly like those people, and I do think they may be the bottom feeders, but legally, they have no obligation. Morally, yes, they should tip, but legally, they just don't have to. No one ever promised us that life is fair. IMO though, karma is alive and well and they will get their due.

ummm, I think you should read my posts. I think you're misinterpreting something I might have said. I am 100% against mandatory tipping and will quote the law to back my position up if need be.

That's all I'm saying... that nobody is under any obligation to tip. I tip... because I WANT to. Not because I feel like I have to. I went out with friends last night... my bill (with tax) came to $10.09. I gave the waitress $15.

Thank you for being reasonable. And thanks for answering the question about the tax

But in this case - at all restaurants with similar policies - and without even seeing the menu, THIS 18% service charge for large parties is printed on the menu. The diners see it before they order; by being part of a large party and ordering from the menu, the diners agree to the service charge.

It was NOT a service charge. All of the articles I've read have quoted an employee of the pub who says that it's a gratuity. NOT a service charge.

I'm still at a loss as to why it was $16. As I mentioned earlier, the "tip" should have been just about $13.


18% of $73 is $13.14....

Apparently that was one of the complaints of the customer. That the 18% gratuity was actually 20%.

So are you advocating the IRS be able to collect twice on the mandatory service charge - once from the restaurant that collects it, and a second time from the server to whom it gets distributed? Not putting words in anyone's mouth, just trying to confirm what's being said.

By the way, it's not a "gratuity". It's a mandatory service charge - a charge for service provided.

No, I'm not ADVOCATING anything. I was wondering if a fee is mandatory if the restaurant should be the one with the tax burden. I asked it several times, someone else repeated it for me, and then it was answered.

And again, it WAS a gratuity. A pub employee confirmed that.

 

[OceanAnnie]

It was NOT a service charge. All of the articles I've read have quoted an employee of the pub who says that it's a gratuity. NOT a service charge.

I read the same thing.

 

[dbriggsq]

So I now treat servers poorly through my whole meal b/c I stated that I stiff servers to teach them a lesson.

Perhaps you missed my 3 examples:

1. A server OINKED at me in his good humor, insulting and ruining my meal. Sure he cannot be resposnible for my low self esteem--but hello, I'm sure he learned to never do it again. I opted to not report him b/c I really didn't want him fired.

2. A server who didn't serve my table at all. Another server and mgmt got invovled as we didn't know who our server was. I tipped the server who helped us. I wanted to tip the "real" server zero, my DH left her something minimal. I whole heartedly disagreed. Tipping for no work is asenine.

3. On our honeymoon cruise due to a humiliating experience that I'm not going to go into as I'm sure others might not see it a big deal, but WE did and us being embarrassed is all that is important.

In all 3 instances, were were nothing but polite customers. Not rude at all. We do say please, we do say thank you.

Presuming that I'm part of the demanding crowd? Please.

You know know what they say about those who assume.

How did you get out of ANY of my posts that *I* treated servers badly?

It seems that folks need to look up "tip"/"gratuity" in the dictionary and remember what it's purpose is.

It isn't "stealing" as another poster put it when someone provides BAD service. They didn't earn anything.

All we want is a nice meal--and we expect to be treated nicely. We will treat the server nicely regardless and then adjust our tip accordingly on the rare occasion that the server's work ethic is sadly lacking.

And I sleep well at night.

I think perhaps you missed the point I was trying to make. I wasn't accusing anyone - I just picked out 2 statements from posts which seems to illustrate the point I was trying to make from both sides. I should have made sure I deleted the names from those quotes.

I certainly did not say that you personally treated servers badly - I said that me and my DH had just returned to the UK from a 2 week trip to the US and had both noticed, on separate occasions, that quite a lot of people, not all obviously, did seem to treat servers badly and we discussed whether this was due to the tipping culture in the US which maintains the position of the server as more of a 'servant' who needs to perform exactly as the patron wishes in order to 'earn' a tip.

I try to stay away from any personal comments because I would really like to see a structured and interesting discussion on the culture of tipping and if there is any way we can get away from it to a situation which is fair to all - where servers are treated as professionals by being paid a proper wage and patrons know exactly what they will pay at the start of the meal and can have a relaxed meal without the more 'obsequious' servers popping up every five minutes to ask if there is anything they can do for you.

 

[CathrynRose]

I'm still at a loss as to why it was $16. As I mentioned earlier, the "tip" should have been just about $13.


18% of $73 is $13.14....

My thought on this - is this: I read a few articles that stated the restaurant DID comp meal(s) off the bill - making much more send of that total bill. Which would then make sense why that percentage seemed higher, as that gratuity charge was on the TOTAL of the bill - pre-comp. KWIM?

So I now treat servers poorly through my whole meal b/c I stated that I stiff servers to teach them a lesson.

.

Who are you quoting, because half that text in what you quoted, isn't mine - and it shows as being all mine.