Confused about value of points - why do some think it's cheaper to pay cash for DCL?

Tiger926

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Jun 21, 2000
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We are new DVC members and we're trying to get as much info on maximizing points, weekday/weekend debate, etc... That being said, I stayed up late last night to read old posts (as a teacher, I so love the amount of info that is shared on these boards!) about paying cash for rooms, cruise, etc... and I am a bit baffled. Here is my query:

When I take my purchase price for our 175 points (minus Disney discount) and divide by 50 years, I get an amount that equals $1.80 per point, plus $3.80 for maintenance fees. This equals $5.60 per point (I used current maintenance fees cuz no one knows what these will increase to in the future). Therefore, if I take this and multiple it by 272 points (4 day cruise - cat.8), it equals $1523.00, but the cruise in cash costs approx. $2500.00. What's the deal? The only thing I can figure out is that people who rent the points and then use this cash for cruise, have assigned a value of $10.00 per point, so is that why people pay cash for their cruises? For me, it doesn't seem like a deal at all when it will cost me cash, plus the cash price is more than the point cost. Am I doing something wrong?

My DH and I bought our points to use, and IMHO, I don't feel it's right to rent out points to make a profit and use these for cruise, or anything else for that matter (not making a judgment, we just feel that this is not what points are intended to be used for); therefore, we aren't using the $10.00 value amount because it doesn't pertain to us. Do I think that too many points are required to cruise? Yes! - but if I decide to use my points for this, instead of paying more cash out of my pocket, then this is a greater use of my points for my current situation.

As well, in following the weekday/weekend debate, I don't understand why if we've already paid cash for our points through our purchase, why then would we pay $200, $300 or $400.00 + per night to stay in that room just to save those points?

I guess there are several things that I'm trying to wrap my head around in regards to our DVC membership. The biggest thing that I'm learning is that all family situations are different, but I find that lots of DVC posters tend to generalize and so it's hard to follow some threads as people feel the need to make blanket statements about point values, etc... I read a post last night which I really liked as a someone stated that their DVC membership is valued at whatever works for their family: eg. using points for cruise, not having to move on the weekends, renting out grand villas for family, etc... This is how my DH and I are looking at it!

Looking forward to hearing any and all opinions. Thanks, Tiger
 
We're new in Feb and have ressies for Easter next year. IWe are approaching it exactly as you discribed. The reason we bought was to not think of money when we go away. Its a prepaid vacation so we will never say lets spend the money on something else. The cost of the points is what we paid for them not what we can get by renting.
 
We're new in Feb and have ressies for Easter next year. IWe are approaching it exactly as you discribed. The reason we bought was to not think of money when we go away. Its a prepaid vacation so we will never say lets spend the money on something else. The cost of the points is what we paid for them not what we can get by renting.
 
Tiger,

I know there are others who've looked into the calculations much more deeply than I, but here's my $.02:

1) We bought into DVC for annual (at least :p ) trips to WDW in high-quality resorts. We plan on using our points as best we can. We're NOT into the total maximization thing; I just booked a 1BR at SSR for next May and ::Gasp:: included a Saturday night on points!

2) I believe that a lot of the weekend stay / maximizing is done by people who find that they need to stretch their points. Since 2 weekend nights can equal 4 weekday nights (or more), if you're running out of points, paying for a weekend sure helps.

3) Renting. Disney expressly allows it. We hope to always be able to use up our points, but if a situation arised that we have some that we can use - and will lose otherwise - we'll rent them. Personally, I have no problem with people renting their points to pay for a cruise - that's essentially what DVC does when you pay for a cruise with points.

4) Point valuation. Again, a subject of much debate. You valued yours quite low - your cost - and didn't even take fee increases into account. Others choose to value them at what they can sell them for on the open market. Both approaches have merit (Is your house worth what you paid for it, or what you could sell it for? How about your car?) - but whatever works for you....

It is a pre-paid vacation, not an investment; it helps to remember that some days :-)
 

There is the cost of the points - which you calculated. And there is the fair market value of those points on the rental board, which is about $10 each.

When comparing to DCL, some people (Like me) compare it to what it cost them to cruise. Others compare it to what they could rent thier points for and get cash.

Neither calculation is wrong. Just a difference perspective
 
Valuing the points at cost is how I do it. That is a real value that I have without doing anything extra. To get the retail value of my points I must rent them, incurring the time and risk of doing so.

I consider the points a prepaid vacation and they are a form of "Disney Currency". Sometimes the Disney Currency is favorable to regular US Currency in getting a room or berth or a holiday in far away places; sometimes it is not. You have to make the comparison each time.

However we paid cash and did not even consider using points for the west bound respositioning cruise next May. Figured the best rates for each category would go quickly. And I have an aversion to paying the exchange fee to DCL on principle. DVC should really negotiate better on our behalf there and elsewhere within in the Disney organization.

If we were to exchange in II we would buy another timeshare that costs less for that purpose.
 
I guess I'm wanting to make sure that there are different ways of looking at it, and that we aren't making a mistake by calculating something wrong since we are just new to the club.

In regards to renting, I know that Disney allows this. For us we don't feel it's right in our situation to include this as we have already decided that it's not worth it to us to do so (family/friends are different, if the situation arises, we aren't going to want to make a profit off of our loved ones, so we'll have to cross this bridge when we come to it!). Basically, we then won't be factoring in the $10.00 rental per point as it doesn't pertain to us. So, I'm still not sure if my numbers are correct - especially in respect to the cruise fare? Is this how I should be figuring it out? DrTomorrow mentioned that I valued my points low, but all I did was take an actual cost per point calculation into effect as this is all that seems relevant - is this not correct? I didn't factor in fee increases as I mentioned because I don't know what they are going to be in the future. That's why I posted this thread in the first place (want to make sure we aren't missing something), as for us, we think it will work just fine if we so choose to use points to pay for a cruise every so often - although I don't like the fact that we have to pay a $75.00 fee to do so, but it is what it is!

I guess then based on your replies, that my DH and I are looking at things in the right way - we bought into DVC as a means of securing prepaid vacations in superior accommodations for the next 50 years! We look at it not as a financial investment in which we are going to make money, but as investment in making memories with our family for years to come.

Thanks for your thoughts, Tiger
 
Your calculation of cost is accurate. Each year you will adjust your cost for the new maintenance fees assessed. So for comparing the cost of spending points versus US Currency -- your analysis is fine.

Your cost of using points is cost you calculated plus the exchange fee. Compare that to the best quote you can get form DCL, their website or Dreams Unlimited (a first rate agency we use when we are not booking through MS).
 
$1.80 per point assumes that you place the same value on the points that you will use 50 years from now vs. the ones you might use next week. This simply doesn't work. Think of it this way - if you took the $15,750 you paid for your contract and placed that in a bank in a one year cd earning 3% (after tax) you would be able to withdraw $600 each of the 50 years before you would run out of CD. All I am saying is that you can argue that $16k today is the same as $30k paid in annual installments. So under my assumptions, you really paid $30k for the points ($3.42 per point). A more realistic time value of $ analysis would indicate that (assuming you didn't finance your points) your underlying cost is between $7-$8 per point.

I'll trade my 2042 points for 2004 points any day.
 
I was convinced that I would use my points for a cruise also, until I saw some other advantages to paying cash. First of all you pay the fee to book the cruise, then if something happens and you have to cancel, you have ALL THOSE POINTS that you've used that may not be able to be banked. Also, you can book alot earlierwith cash than DVC allows us to book, giving you a better chance at the room you want. Can't remember if there was any other good points or not. Anyway, the posters convinced me that I could rent out the same points the cruise would cost, and have enough money to also purchase the airplane tickets!
 
Tiger926, enjoy your points the way you want to use them! In '96 DH and I inquired into DVC and we analyzed it to death, and we didn't buy. THAT was the wrong decision.

At Vero this year, we met another DVC family, who were looking forward to using their points to cruise next year. I wonder if they would have thanked me if I went on about renting the points and not using the points directly for cruise. Would anyone here have done that? I would be an ineffective spokesperson because I see the value in getting more by renting the points and then using the money to pay for the cruise and actually have money for excursions, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing it, so I couldn't tell another person to do it either. I did mention the disboard to the family, and told them that these boards were a great way to learn about DVC and "meet" others interested in Disney.

We booked our very first stay over a weekend in December '03 at only 2 months out, we bought in late September, and it was for the VWL! It's probably because we were going on a weekend that the room was available. We were lucky that others didn't want to stay over a weekend, I am not complaining, so far, DVC has worked for us, and we're looking forward to many more trips and cruises in the future.

Bobbi
 
Originally posted by mydogdrew
$1.80 per point assumes that you place the same value on the points that you will use 50 years from now vs. the ones you might use next week. This simply doesn't work.

Why not? I value things my way, you can value things your way. I'm with the OP. My points per year cost me about 1.80 per point + maintenance. FV of money is a nice concept if I were deciding on financial investments. This isn't one of them, so I'd prefer to keep it simple.

-Joe
 
Originally posted by mydogdrew
$1.80 per point assumes that you place the same value on the points that you will use 50 years from now vs. the ones you might use next week. This simply doesn't work. Think of it this way - if you took the $15,750 you paid for your contract and placed that in a bank in a one year cd earning 3% (after tax) you would be able to withdraw $600 each of the 50 years before you would run out of CD. All I am saying is that you can argue that $16k today is the same as $30k paid in annual installments. So under my assumptions, you really paid $30k for the points ($3.42 per point). A more realistic time value of $ analysis would indicate that (assuming you didn't finance your points) your underlying cost is between $7-$8 per point.

I'll trade my 2042 points for 2004 points any day.
Thank you mydogdrew for chiming in here before I had to drag out my "time value of money" lesson.

As a finance wonk by profession:teacher:, I had to run spreadsheets to figure out what each year's points were costing us at thye time of purchase, and since DVD was offering us $10 a point for the first year's points, that seemed like a good starting point. So in 2003, our current points cost us $10, 2004 points cost $7.55, 2005 cost $6.80... ... and the final year about 2 cents. Of course this was for BWV points at $84 per point. Add in opportunity costs, and out 2004 points should be worth us$7.55 times the cost of money (prevailing interest rates, we use the cost of our mortgage), so maybe us$8 each on a cost basis, plus maintenence fees; it could be that you're losing money if you were to rent them out at us$10 per pt. There are all sorts of ways to figure it, but it is important to include the time value of money.
:scratchin As mydogdrew pointed out so well "I'll trade my 2042 points for 2004 points any day."

But also, the cost of your points is not really a relevant consideration here either. It is managing your resources to maximize your vacations. So for example, if the prevailing rental price is us$10 per pt, and weekend point costs are 29 pts a night (for VB ocean view Inn room), vs rack rate of us$180, guess what I'm gonna choose? Plus I'll get housekeeping for those weekend days, and we'lll have those 29 points extra (to use or rent) for each weekend night we paid cash.
::yes::
Using cash instead of points isn't cheating, sometimes it's using the more efficient currency.

Then again, you are free to use your resources as you see fit. If it is easier just to use the points, then by all means do it. My DW doesn't want to know how I have our vacation covered, she just needs to know that she can do what she wants to do for what she wants us to pay (and she lets me figure it out for us:hyper:, which is fine).
 
Tiger, you're working through a good thought process.

Points can be valued at cost or market value; there is a difference.

We bought into DVC never intending to rent (and never have) and to use our points solely at DVC resorts, and MAYBE take a Disney cruise.

Well, now, I'm leaning on that "maybe" for the cruise, so I started looking at it.

Points for what we would want are 278. I have a cash quote from a travel web site, same cruise, category, and dates for $1576.

I can take the 200 points I currently have available, rent them for $10 (or maybe more) and pay for the cruise plus a good chunk of the airfare. So now I'm out 200 points but I have a flight and a cruise. If I stuck to using the negotiated rate for DCL, I have to use the 200, borrow 78 more and pay for the flight for the same vacation.

You will find that the non-DVC Disney options are not always the best value, but everyone will have circumstances where points make sense and those where cash makes sense.

Good Luck!
 
Originally posted by goofy4dvc
I was convinced that I would use my points for a cruise also, until I saw some other advantages to paying cash. First of all you pay the fee to book the cruise, then if something happens and you have to cancel, you have ALL THOSE POINTS that you've used that may not be able to be banked. Also, you can book alot earlierwith cash than DVC allows us to book, giving you a better chance at the room you want. Can't remember if there was any other good points or not. Anyway, the posters convinced me that I could rent out the same points the cruise would cost, and have enough money to also purchase the airplane tickets!

To add to the list - not all cabin categories are available to you if you are using points. I know the very top categories are not.


I see nothing at all wrong with using points to cruise if that is how you want to spend your points.

IMHO, people underestimate how hard it can be to rent and how much time it can take. My time and effort are worth something to me.

Best wishes -
 
Also, depending on when you travel and what sort of deal you get, cruising is not always as good a deal as it was for you.

Our four day cruise would have run the family around 450 points. The cruise itself only cost us about $2400. I figure my "cost" at about $6 a point - $2700 - plus I'd have to pay the booking fee ($75?).

Plus we'd then be in a position of NOT being able to go to Disney - or needing to rent points to do so. If you are cruising instead of WDW, using points may make sense - but then you have extra points, and should probably use the rental value. We were cruising in addition to WDW.

For each cruise date and cabin type you need to do the math - value the points for yourself - and consider what other use you have for your points.
 
Oh, and a small number of cabins are available to cruise on points - sometimes you plan to pay in points, but the only cabins left are cash cabins.
 
chrisi- are you sure about limited cabin available on points? My sis recently inquired about the point cabin vs cash cabin availability. MS told her that any cabin in the categories available on points could be paid for with points. No quotas.

Tiger- we cruised on points and felt it was a good deal, but that was before the point charts got as steep as they are now. I would shop the cash price with a good TA before making your decision.
Good stuff about cash bookings: it is easy to book and pay slowly. With points if you owe any cash on your ressie over and above your points you have to come up with the cash when you book all at once (no credit cards either!) AND you may be eligible for a deal like onboard ship credit.

Good stuff about booking on points: you will probably be invited to DVC events onboard and have DVC goodies placed in your cabin. We got hats and lanyards....Best of luck!
 
Someone recently posted here that they'd tried to book on points and there were no cabins available, but they were able to book on cash. That matches with what we were told by the CM doing bookings on the cruise - limited cabins available on points. But I could be wrong.
 
We've been thinking about the cruise, too. Use points/rent points....we're still kicking around that option. Renting seems very attractive....as long as we're ready for any potential headaches.
I didn't know that there was a limit on cabins for DVC point use; if we wanted the higher cabin rating we could not book it w/points?
What if you wanted to do one person on points and the rest as cash....is there still a limit? :boat: :boat:
 



















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