Community College enrollment plunges, this can't be good

[Magical2017]

So what I am to understand is that the schools who pick very expensive books are not doing it because they have to do so. In fact, they are deliberately fleecing their students and their families because if some don't they are opting in.
Guess who will NOT be getting any donations anytime soon :/

I am not sure about other universities, but our department has made it very clear to keep book costs to a minimum. Some professors create their own course packets and make them free or charge a small copying fee if students want a hard copy. Those who select expensive books have to justify the cost and prove they could not find a less expensive option.

 

[AussieFan8]

I have worked at a community college for over 20 years. I can confirm enrollment is down for us, and due to population trends, we expect that it will likely stay down. State funding for colleges is also down, with community colleges seeing more of a decline than public four-year institutions.

I take exception to a comment that the quality of instruction at the community college is generally lower. I have seen some truly outstanding instruction happening at the community college. I think sometimes university faculty have competing interests as far as research, working to get published, etc. This is not typically the case at community colleges, and I've seen many instructors who are very invested in student success and developing interesting and challenging curriculum. Of course there are other classes that are not as great. Having said that, my daughter is at a university, and has had the same experience - some amazing faculty, some not as good.

Someone posted earlier that you have to weigh costs carefully, and that is also true. My daughter has a full merit scholarship at her university. It has stayed the same every year while costs go up, and incoming freshmen are offered a higher amount now for that same scholarship, but the amount for those already receiving the scholarship stay the same. We are fortunate that she was offered enough money that her scholarships still cover all of her costs and she gets money back.

I have seen over and over the effect student loans can have on students at an age where many don't truly understand the long-term impact of owing that much money. Therefore, unless you need to go a specific more expensive college for a specific reason (ie your major is only offered out of state), I firmly believe in getting a college education at the lowest cost possible, and that often means going to a community college first, then transferring. There are of course exceptions for various reasons, but that is the route I would have encouraged my daughter to take had she not received her scholarships.

 

[mrodgers]

Every family has to figure out what works best for them. We are in the midst of shopping for colleges for ODD, who's a high school junior. DH & I have identified how much we can afford to pay per year for tuition, room & board, and that's been a primary driver of which schools we've been looking at. ODD's GPA and test scores also play an important role in determining what schools are on the possibility list.

This is why I posted in that thread about things you hear here but not outside of here and said acronyms and not knowing what people are talking about half the time. What the heck is ODD? Very odd...

 

[mrodgers]

I was in college in the early to mid 90s.. Each semester I was looking at 300-400 USED!!

Same, except not every semester. Only the first semester. After everything being handed out in a zeroxed packet and never opening any of those $300+ books, I waited until after school started the next semesters to see what books we actually were going to open and use. My Chemistry books were the only one I used during my 2 years of Associates degree.

 

[disneyseniors]

We are starting to explore colleges. I want to encourage my ds to look at community colleges. It seems there is a stigma, does anyone know why? Everyone is pushing their kids to 4 year colleges it seems. When I mention CC most just kind of shrug and you can tell they think it's a bad idea. There are other options like CC, apprentice, take a year off to work and save money etc. Also, they can transfer into a 4 year school after CC.

There seems to be a general attitude that 4 year colleges are the only choice and the best choice. Does it really set kids up for better success if they attend a 4 year school? It is just so expensive and most kids I know that went to college are not even in a job that they went to school for.

I get the same vibe too about CC's. Ours is very popular though. They have a successful ADN program with people coming from all over the state to attend. You can transition into the local college if you want further education. The auto mechanic school at the tech is very popular too and is a much needed profession.
I think kids are thinking of more options out in the real world which is great. We need people to work at these jobs which others might look down on. I don't understand this attitude at all.

 

[NotUrsula]

This is why I posted in that thread about things you hear here but not outside of here and said acronyms and not knowing what people are talking about half the time. What the heck is ODD? Very odd...

I'm assuming "oldest dear daughter". Most people here would use the acronym DD1 instead.

 

[Colleen27]

There are downsides to CC. Not all credits transfer,

And even when they do, they don't always knock two years off the enrollment time at university because a lot of universities require all major classes be taken at the uni. When I transferred from CC to uni, it was under a 2+2 agreement... but my first semester at university was a choice between taking just one four-credit class (OOP, because that's not even part time for financial aid purposes) or taking an additional class or two that I didn't really need in order to qualify as part/full time. Because literally every course in my major had that one shared pre-req, which couldn't be taken elsewhere, and that meant anyone transferring into the program was automatically on the hook for taking 5 semesters to finish those last 2 years.

I would not be surprised if declining enrollment is partially due to the mental health challenges many teens are facing.

I think that is very much a factor. The levels of social anxiety and stress I see in my girls and their peers are alarming, and I have no doubt that it has to do with the lingering impacts of the pandemic. Several of DD21's friends left college during the pandemic or, for those who are a year or two younger, decided not to enroll or not to go away even though that was something they'd dreamed of since elementary school.

I take exception to a comment that the quality of instruction at the community college is generally lower. I have seen some truly outstanding instruction happening at the community college. I think sometimes university faculty have competing interests as far as research, working to get published, etc. This is not typically the case at community colleges, and I've seen many instructors who are very invested in student success and developing interesting and challenging curriculum. Of course there are other classes that are not as great. Having said that, my daughter is at a university, and has had the same experience - some amazing faculty, some not as good.

As one of the people who made a comment along those lines, that's a big part of why I was careful to preface my statement with a disclaimer about it being solely my experience. Our local CC (in a semi-rural Michigan county) has a handful of stellar programs, mostly in the trades where they partner with companies in the auto and building industries, but outside of those programs and their nursing school, virtually all of their instructional staff are adjuncts making a pittance (many of them K-12 teachers in their 'day job') and the core/transfer-oriented classes are absolutely taught to the level of a C-student who is trying to study around a full time job. I'm sure there are excellent CCs out there, but that's not what I've seen around me.

 

[bjscheel]

Community college isn't always the money-saver it is made out to be, especially for students who have the potential to earn decent-sized scholarships.

Yes, you have to be careful with this. DD21 could have attended a cc for free. It was an hour away so living at home not an option. Plus, she had enough DE credit so that she probably could have finished her AA in a year. I felt that really all that would accomplish is putting her behind socially at her 4 year when she showed up as a transfer. She qualified for the top merit at her small public so it wasn't that expensive to just start there with the rest of the class. I will say that her 4 year did offer almost as good merit for cc transfers, but many do not.

 

[AussieFan8]

As one of the people who made a comment along those lines, that's a big part of why I was careful to preface my statement with a disclaimer about it being solely my experience. Our local CC (in a semi-rural Michigan county) has a handful of stellar programs, mostly in the trades where they partner with companies in the auto and building industries, but outside of those programs and their nursing school, virtually all of their instructional staff are adjuncts making a pittance (many of them K-12 teachers in their 'day job') and the core/transfer-oriented classes are absolutely taught to the level of a C-student who is trying to study around a full time job. I'm sure there are excellent CCs out there, but that's not what I've seen around me.

You are definitely right about the adjunct situation. We have gone from very few to quite a few adjuncts in my time there. Some of them are great, but as you mentioned, they typically have other full-time jobs. A student seeking assistance from a full-time faculty member can engage with them in person during their office hours, but a student seeking help from an adjunct often has to wait for an email response when the instructor has time.

But I guess there is a similar situation at universities with TA's/grad students teaching classes, so you're not always getting full-time faculty in the discipline there, either. But there is definitely something to be said for the immersion of the university experience for those who can afford it.

 

[mjkacmom]

Yes, you have to be careful with this. DD21 could have attended a cc for free. It was an hour away so living at home not an option. Plus, she had enough DE credit so that she probably could have finished her AA in a year. I felt that really all that would accomplish is putting her behind socially at her 4 year when she showed up as a transfer. She qualified for the top merit at her small public so it wasn't that expensive to just start there with the rest of the class. I will say that her 4 year did offer almost as good merit for cc transfers, but many do not.

I just read a post on a college Facebook page from a mother of an incoming student. She forced her daughter (her words) to take a gap year, took CC classes, and now mom is upset that her daughter will be housed with transfer students instead of freshmen.

 

[barkley]

so is our area unique with community colleges offering both 3 year programs (with direct transfer agreements for the senior year to our state universities) and full bore 4 year degree programs (i was curious and just saw 7 bachelor's programs at our local as of this year)?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Now it seems like everybody wants to go out of state..

This one depends I think on where you live.

Coincidentally to your post I live in KS.

You've got 2 main major Universities in the state: K-State and University of Kansas (highest enrollment). That's basically it. There's other colleges sure but just the main two really. Sure there's Wichita State but still not quite the big pull. The Community College in my area does get a lot students though. I'm guessing if you mentioned football it couldn't possibly be KU that the person was interested in as they are not good in that. Basketball heck ya but football...not any longer

There's also reciprocal tuition going on depending on the college and field of study you are going for where you can get in-state pricing.

I know it's not exactly what you're talking about with respects to flying across the country but some of that is going to depend on the two things I mentioned: schools available in your state and reciprocity agreements between states, fields of studies and colleges.

 

[barkley]

There's also reciprocal tuition going on depending on the college and field of study you are going for where you can get in-state pricing.

yes! the western undergraduate exchange program includes over 15 states and u.s. territories such that a student can receive the benefits of in state tuition rates at over 160 public colleges and universities.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Seems Boston is trying to help people sort things out with a free program. Anyone else see similar programs in their city or community?

https://www.boston.gov/departments/workforce-development/tuition-free-community-college-plan

 

[LuvOrlando]

https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/2022/05/24/is-community-college-free/

 

[LuvOrlando]

NY
https://www.ny.gov/programs/tuition-free-degree-program-excelsior-scholarship

 

[MrsPete]

Not everyone needs to go, I get that, but if we had a proportion of people going and the volume drops precipitously, we should be asking graduating HS students and their families why.

Eh, as a long-time high school teacher, I don't think you're going to get truthful answers from high school students /their parents. We in high school can only tell you who was admitted to college. Many of those students are living in la-la land ... I know a whole bunch of seniors who have 2.0 GPAs, who skip school regularly and admit they aren't interested in education, but they're going to start at our local community college, then transfer to (insert competitive university here) and become Neurologists or Chemical Engineers or Unicorns.

If you could check on the kids a year out of college you'd get a more realistic picture of who's actually STAYING in college. By then you'd weed out the students who enrolled because it seemed to be the path of least resistance, etc.

We are starting to explore colleges. I want to encourage my ds to look at community colleges. It seems there is a stigma, does anyone know why? Everyone is pushing their kids to 4 year colleges it seems ...

My youngest was a very strong student in high school, and she chose community college (right choice for her). Her more snobby classmates did look at her as if they wanted to say, "But you're .... smart. I wonder if your parents are poor?" No one actually said this, of course, but that's how she interpreted it.

No, "everyone" isn't pushing for 4-year colleges. Our middle-of-the-road kids are all about community college, but the upper level kids (the ones in AP and Honors classes) do look down on those who go to community college.

And I've heard a bunch of students say they want to go to university for non-academic reasons:
- I'm planning to go to a 4-year party.
- I want to get out of my house /my state.

... Now it seems like everybody wants to go out of state ...

In all fairness, I've been teaching seniors for three decades, and kids have ALWAYS wanted to go out of state:
- Some of the more snobby think our state is not good enough for them.
- Many want to move out of their parents' house and be on their own.
- Some are ga-ga over big name schools for silly reasons: they have such a great football team, they have great Greek life, they're near the beach!

Many parents just won't allow this because of cost, and I think they're right. We have an excellent state school system, and it's pretty rare that a student can't get what he or she needs here.

I remember one student (a bit of a snooty girl), who was absolutely going to go out of state because NONE of the schools in our state are good enough! Yeah, UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke ... not good enough for her, and she had the grades to get into a school of that level. She ONLY applied to one private out-of-state school. She was admitted, and she sat back to wait for the scholarships to roll in ... they didn't. She got zip, nada, nothing (this is not rare). Her parents were upper-middle-class, so no financial aid either. Her parents sat her down and explained that they simply could not afford it, especially as they had two other daughters to put through school, but it was too late to apply to a more reasonably priced school. She threw a temper tantrum for the ages. She never considered community college, but she suddenly picked up a huge desire to take "a gap year".

I've seen a lot over the years teaching seniors.

There are downsides to CC. Not all credits transfer, if you transfer to a 4 year college transfers aren’t usually eligible for FA ...

It's true that not all credits transfer. My husband started in community college, and he had only two options for university (because only two universities in our state offered Engineering at that point ... we're talking about the 80s). The one he really wanted said, "Nope, we will accept none of your community college credits". The other said, "We will accept 90% of your community college credits." It wasn't even a real choice.

When my youngest was in community college, she had already chosen her future university, and we were able to CAREFULLY choose community college classes based upon information on the university website ... but not every student understands that this will be an issue, and not every student knows where he or she intends to land after the Associate degree. They tend to just think 2 years + 2 years = graduation, when the reality is a whole lot more complicated.

Transfer students are absolutely eligible for financial aid!

... As someone who was a nurse ... From what I hear, even a 4 year degree isn't enough. It's a Masters now ...

My oldest is a nurse (finished college in 2016, so she's not all that far into her career). She went straight to university and has a BSN, but she says her co-workers at the hospital and later at the Urgent Care were split about 50-50 between BSNs and community college degrees.

She has now left what she calls "bedside nursing" and is in Nurse Management; that is, with a team of five, she staffs, trains and supervises all the RNs who work in 30-something Urgent Cares ... again, she has a BSN (Bachelor of Science in Nursing).

2) Community college isn't always the money-saver it is made out to be

Sometimes, sometimes not. So many moving parts:

- As I said, our youngest started in community college, and she ended up staying 3 years. She changed her major, so a bunch of classes she took as a freshman suddenly turned into useless electives, and she "found herself" and became comfortable in community college in a way she never was in high school. She finished her degree and stayed /took a bunch of art classes in that last semester. She was happy. Once she hit university, she had grown up a great deal, and she did great (started and finished her major-specific classes in 2 years with a 4.0) ... but she was in colleges 3 + 2 years. Our financial mistake was deducting her college expenses all 3 years of community college ... we should've skipped those deductions one year so we could've deducted both years of university.

- MANY students don't plan their transition from community college to university well ... and, admittedly, none of their advisors help them with this, so if their parents don't "get it", they're likely on their own. If they take a bunch of "wrong" classes, they'll end up staying in college more than 4 years. My daughter's roommate was a perfect example: she entered with a community college degree and (in theory) could've graduated from university in 2 years. She had taken all the classes to graduate from community college, but those classes didn't all match up with the requirements to enter her university major ... so she spent most of her first year qualifying for her major. Then she stayed 2 1/2 more years at university because she didn't plan her class load particularly well. So she did 2 + 3 1/2 years at her two colleges. Poor kid, she didn't have a mother, and her father paid for her school but rarely spoke to her ... but community college didn't save her anything.

- Some students will get lots of financial aid and scholarships, making university essentially free, but they are in the minority. Over the years I've seen scholarships especially dry up.

- And, of course, location of the potential schools makes a difference in your cost. Some students can easily live in their parents' home while attending university, etc.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

In all fairness, I've been teaching seniors for three decades, and kids have ALWAYS wanted to go out of state:
- Some of the more snobby think our state is not good enough for them.
- Many want to move out of their parents' house and be on their own.
- Some are ga-ga over big name schools for silly reasons: they have such a great football team, they have great Greek life, they're near the beach!

Many parents just won't allow this because of cost, and I think they're right. We have an excellent state school system, and it's pretty rare that a student can't get what he or she needs here.

I remember one student (a bit of a snooty girl), who was absolutely going to go out of state because NONE of the schools in our state are good enough! Yeah, UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, Wake Forest, Duke ... not good enough for her, and she had the grades to get into a school of that level. She ONLY applied to one private out-of-state school. She was admitted, and she sat back to wait for the scholarships to roll in ... they didn't. She got zip, nada, nothing (this is not rare). Her parents were upper-middle-class, so no financial aid either. Her parents sat her down and explained that they simply could not afford it, especially as they had two other daughters to put through school, but it was too late to apply to a more reasonably priced school. She threw a temper tantrum for the ages. She never considered community college, but she suddenly picked up a huge desire to take "a gap year".

I've seen a lot over the years teaching seniors.

I'd say that's more or less a different point being discussed. Distance from parents doesn't mean needing to be across the country, it can be doesn't always mean that. I went to college 30 miles from my mom's house but it was it's own niche area. Plenty of students were from my area but when you were in that town you were in your own little world.

Like I mentioned and another poster verified there are quite a list of colleges that will allow for in-state tuition to be applied. Cost is def. a concern but wouldn't be a good discussion if we ignored that it's not always the case that someone is paying more just because they are going to a college not within the confines of their state lines nor does it mean that the colleges within the state lines are bad ones where a student is trying to escape from either.

As far as the student you knew that was a failure on behalf of the parents 100%. If the parents had had the frank discussions earlier on with their daughter that they should have had the expectations would have been there. The daughter could have had the opportunity to put forth some of her own money (and I'm guessing from the tone of your comments perhaps the parents didn't even let her work to earn that money) to go to a college she wanted (or at least give her more independence to choose from). The having 2 other daughters to pay for college is a weak excuse on behalf of the parents. Parents don't need to be obligated to pay for college but neither should siblings be responsible for their siblings college either.

 

[tvguy]

. Our CC is $10,000 a year so not a huge cost savings.

That's crazy expensive IMHO. In California Community College has been free since 2017 if you meet certain requirements.
California State University tuition is $7,392 per academic year by comparison.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Not that an 'n' of 2 is statistically valid, but DH and I both work at Universities (different universities). Enrollment is WAY down for next fall at both schools. "Way down" meaning departments have been asked to evaluate their staff positions to see what can be reduced or cut, salary lines for hiring replacement faculty have been eliminated, etc. They are also saying that any course with fewer than 12 students enrolled will be canceled. This sounds reasonable until you realize that some programs (physics, for example) don't have 12 majors at every level. If too many courses are canceled/postponed (like only offered in fall of even numbered years), current students are going to need to take an extra year to finish their degrees. The general chemistry program has cut 10 lab sections, from 32 to 22. This is telling, as the chem department teaches gen chem as a service course, to students from all majors, campus-wide. I am not sure why this is happening, but it's real.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...N-traditional-degrees-including-THEOLOGY.html