Commitment ceremonies at WDW

[PghLybrt]

I do not think we hold ourselves out as different , I feel that society makes a target of difference. When Disney has other sanctioned days those groups are never looked upon as wanting special privileges but if gays want something we are looked upon as trying to be different. I mean if we want to go this route I think cheerleaders want special attention from Disney, and Christians, and heck even graduates! All it is about is wanting to go with like minded people…..maybe this will help, take a gay cruise. Seriously see what it is to be the odd one out.

I want to walk in Disney and not have some 12 year old boy point and say to his dad “look at those dykes“ and dad nod his head and laugh, I want to go when we are so numerous in numbers that the rest of the guests do not feel a need to point us out and make fun. How is that inclusive?

(True story…..…we also had people taking our pictures in the beirgarten in epcot as if we were some freak show….and we were with mom and dad..how do you think it made them feel to have their children treated with such a lack of respect?)

 

[Master Mason]

I do not think we hold ourselves out as different , I feel that society makes a target of difference. When Disney has other sanctioned days those groups are never looked upon as wanting special privileges but if gays want something we are looked upon as trying to be different. I mean if we want to go this route I think cheerleaders want special attention from Disney, and Christians, and heck even graduates! All it is about is wanting to go with like minded people…..maybe this will help, take a gay cruise. Seriously see what it is to be the odd one out.

I want to walk in Disney and not have some 12 year old boy point and say to his dad “look at those dykes“ and dad nod his head and laugh, I want to go when we are so numerous in numbers that the rest of the guests do not feel a need to point us out and make fun. How is that inclusive?

(True story…..…we also had people taking our pictures in the beirgarten in epcot as if we were some freak show….and we were with mom and dad..how do you think it made them feel to have their children treated with such a lack of respect?)

The disrespect is wrong, plain and simple. Maybe living in the Bay Area my whole life, where there is a large gay population has effected my thinking, compared to other areas of the country, but why laugh at someone or make fun of them.

you say to take a gay cruise and see how I feel. Well, I have been in a gay bar before, so while it wasn't long term emersion it was similar. What I found was I didn't care everyone was having a good time no big deal.

I still say as long as people want to be 'x' instead of just a person, where x can be a race, a handicap, a sexual orientation etc, then those people are not being just a person. They are adding their own lable to themselves. When you create lables, you create people that don't like those lables.

To use your cheerleader analogy, if they have a cheerleader day, then that allowes everyone that dislikes cheerleaders to have an issue with it....

I am not saying there isn't discrimnation, but by placing self impossed lables on someone, they are creating targets for that discrimination to keep ocurring.

 

[PghLybrt]

I agree discrimination is wrong, but it exists. And maybe being where you live it isn’t a big deal. When we travel to San Diego, its very much the same thing no body cares…but go to the vineyards where the parents live….huge deal. The small town where I live again huge deal…people will not allow their children to trick or treat at our house, no kidding.


And the whole being in a gay bar thing…..I have been in straight bars too (tons of them) and I would never assume that’s how all straight people act ! But my point was that after a while you would start to feel different, you may find yourself editing certain parts of stories you tell or withdrawing all together. Then again maybe not, you may be like me and just be yourself not caring if it make s the person next to you uncomfortable. And I think that’s fine , unfortunately many gay people edit how they act, what they say even how they dress so that the straight world is not made uncomfortable. (not to mention personal saftey)

I have many straight friends and I know that they love me and value me for who I am but even with them every once in awhile things come out of their mouths like “that’s gay” and they do not see it as hurtful.

We didn’t put the labels on ourselves either, we just learn to live with them.

I guess maybe its like a browns fan walking into a Steelers bar in Pittsburgh. Or any team rivals for that matter. We like to be with those that are like us. I do not want to watch the Steelers with browns fans all the time . Every once in a while ,ok, but not all the time. At a local park here had a walmart associate day, probably so people who worked in the same company could hang out with each other. Nobody had a problem if they worked for target and went to the park that day. I think those who have a problem with gay days just have a problem with gay people, if they didn’t then they would not care what we did.

Sometimes I just want to have a good time with other people who understand me and know what it feels like to live in my skin , and like it or not a straight person will never know what that fels like, no matter how hard they try.

 

[Master Mason]

I do understand what your saying, and hopefully you can understand where I am coming from. I don't have to live the discrimination, and will never be one of those that says "I understand" because I don't. But I also am not one of those that is contibuting to the problem either.

I am a big advocate of live and let live, treat everyone in a manner that they have shown me they deserve to be treated. If your good people I treat you well, if your a scumbag, i'll treat you like a scumbag. What your color, religion, orientation etc are of no concern to me.

I don't want to be in WDW and see ANY two people doing things in public that shouldn't be done in public, but who you want to put your arm around or give a kiss to, shouldn't matter one bit to anyone.

And it won't happen in my lifetime, but hopefully one day we can get to the point where the lables are gone.

 

[PghLybrt]

I must say I do enjoy chatting with you ....usually we get the whole god thing .

 

[Master Mason]

I must say I do enjoy chatting with you ....usually we get the whole god thing .

Too many people hide behind religion to satify their own personal prejudices.... I belive in a loving god myself, he created us, and made us who we are... religion should be inclusive, not a club used to beat people over the head. my church is currently upsetting most of the cristian world by ordaining gay bishops.... but their doing it anyways, because they are judging the person as a person. Which is what I have always advocated.

 

[Psychometrika]

Is it "stood behind" or "stood with"? I'd say I have the weight of history on my side. Since humankind began to worship one entity or another, that worship has been the cause of suffering on massive scales. Civil war in England. The inquisition in Spain. The puritans in the Americas. The crusades. Islamic militants/terrorists. Pick a decade... pick a religion or creed... I can point to the bodies of thousands of innocents.

If hate mongers were truly hiding behind religion and religion itself was a love-filled woodstock, then why haven't the churches done anything beyond the individual acts of people of conscience? A priest here or there helped rescue victims in Nazi Germany - but where was the church? They speak out about abortion, gay marriage and anything else that suits their fancy - yet virtual silence in a war barely half a decade past. I guess the trouble with religion is that it depends on people.

You mention your church. Sure - it's ordained a gay bishop and a priest or two. See the reaction. The majority of the communion is about to leave the "communion". To save the union, the Archbishop, who had appeared to support the US church, has largely caved into the pressure. Will the few churches in the NE continue this practice and leave the mother church - maybe and good for them, but these piecemeal victories cannot change the inbred hostility of organized faiths over the millennia.

The biggest difference in the U.S. and some other countries - I can generally exist as a gay person without being killed. In much of Africa, South America and the Middle East the right to live isn't guaranteed. I guess I should be thankful I can breathe, eat and go to WDW - our brothers and sisters abroad are not always so lucky.

Think about the blood that has been spilled for 4000+ years in the name of and by "religious people" - and the deaths continuing on a daily - then try and account for the "Night of Joy".

 

[SeattleRedBear]

One comment above suggested it was the archaic laws in Florida that prevented them from allowing ceremonies. Wrong. They wouldn't be legal (as in a piece of paper) but they could be performed nonetheless. Such ceremonies are performed all over the state every day.

Okay. To bring it back on topic just a little....

I agree completely that WDW & DL should provide commitment ceremony services to same-sex couples. But they don't (yet). I didn't mean to suggest they couldn't because the state of Florida doesn't allow gay marriage (ie, it would be illegal).

Though it isn't necessarily right, social laws often reflect cultural norms. IMO, longstanding legal recognition of gay relationships (through marriage or civil unions) will reflect a change in cultural acceptance (once it's been around for awhile). My point was that legal gay marriage/civil unions is a big indication that it is "safe" for Disney to offer this service (a service that should have been offered all along) and that there will likely not be the economic consequences that might result otherwise.

Disney recognizes the fact that it is "good business" to offer DP benefits (as they retain employees) and it is "good business" to be sensitive to GLBT guests (which means not questioning when two men ask for a king bed or not asking "Well, which one of you is the mother?" or not reacting negatively if two people of the same gender are holding hands or walking arm in arm). It became obvious after the unsuccessful Southern Baptist boycott, that most people could really care less about DP benefits or about the occasional gay guest in the park, or even about gaydays (as my general sense of most threads is that people are curious but when they find out nothing lewd and lascivious happens in the parks, really don't care, it's just another crowded day).

However, show a picture of two men in tuxedos and top hat mouse ears or two women in formals and veil mouse ears (or any combination of same sex couples wearing whatever formal wear along with whatever mouse ears) and I can guarantee the uproar will be HUGE! IMO, the majority of Americans are not yet comfortable with that image. Many people intellectually get that it is wrong to provide legal rights/recognition to committed families that follow traditional gender lines but not to provide those same rights/recognition to non-traditional families. But it's the image that is foreign to them (esp. considering that gender roles are socially cultivated practically from the day of birth).

Personally, I'm not going to penalize Disney because they're not there yet, because American society, as a whole, isn't there yet. I will actively boycott organizations and businesses that are clearly discriminatory or support discriminatory causes. I will support organizations and business that show evidence of "family" friendly policies. But in my mind, the way I can make the most difference is to live my life as a comfortably 'out' person. To refer to my 'partner' 'boyfriend' or 'husband' (in Massachusetts or Canada) rather than my 'friend'; to have pictures of my family in my cubicle (including pictures of husbear, step-children and grandchildren), to wear matching rings, to kiss him when I drop him off at work, to quarrel with him in public in a way that is obviously a couple having a quarrel. If all GLBT people stopped self-censorship, the image of gay Americans would become a part of more people's experience and gays would be just another person instead of something different.

 

[Master Mason]

Is it "stood behind" or "stood with"? I'd say I have the weight of history on my side. Since humankind began to worship one entity or another, that worship has been the cause of suffering on massive scales. Civil war in England. The inquisition in Spain. The puritans in the Americas. The crusades. Islamic militants/terrorists. Pick a decade... pick a religion or creed... I can point to the bodies of thousands of innocents.

If hate mongers were truly hiding behind religion and religion itself was a love-filled woodstock, then why haven't the churches done anything beyond the individual acts of people of conscience? A priest here or there helped rescue victims in Nazi Germany - but where was the church? They speak out about abortion, gay marriage and anything else that suits their fancy - yet virtual silence in a war barely half a decade past. I guess the trouble with religion is that it depends on people.

You mention your church. Sure - it's ordained a gay bishop and a priest or two. See the reaction. The majority of the communion is about to leave the "communion". To save the union, the Archbishop, who had appeared to support the US church, has largely caved into the pressure. Will the few churches in the NE continue this practice and leave the mother church - maybe and good for them, but these piecemeal victories cannot change the inbred hostility of organized faiths over the millennia.

The biggest difference in the U.S. and some other countries - I can generally exist as a gay person without being killed. In much of Africa, South America and the Middle East the right to live isn't guaranteed. I guess I should be thankful I can breathe, eat and go to WDW - our brothers and sisters abroad are not always so lucky.

Think about the blood that has been spilled for 4000+ years in the name of and by "religious people" - and the deaths continuing on a daily - then try and account for the "Night of Joy".

I agree, and as I said in my very first post on this thread, to compare the "night of joy" and a gay day is not a good comparison....

and to clarify a bit when I said they hide behind it, what I meant was they use it as a cruch to justify something that couldn't be justfied by a right thinking person... that can be hatred of gays, people of other religions, races... you name it. The Clan claimed to be a deeply religous group.... That it is used that way doesn't make religion bad, it makes the people that use it in the manner bad.

 

[Master Mason]

Seatle,

Dead on accurate IMHO

 

[Psychometrika]

You are of course correct Mason, that the people behind it rather than the set of religious beliefs are to blame. The books are lovely. Love, peace, brotherhood and all that. Who could be against that? Yet the human race hasn't seemed to get it right in 4000 years. Thus I maintain it is the religious organization that is at fault. If peace, love and brotherhood are the cornerstones of such a faith then it is up to the membership and leaders to "excommunicate" those who violate it, rather than excommunicating gay priests.

Why does Mother Theresa stand out in the crowd (and those like her)? Precisely because, in the affective taxonomy, she could be said to have lived her life characterized by a value. Why should she be so unique? If organized religion is indeed itself sound, she should simply be one of many, and therefore not at all unique. Marx, oft misquoted, and even more oft misunderstood, had it right - it is the organization that is without merit.

Our republic was founded by protest. If the people of faith truly believe in love and equality - then let them stand up and demonstrate it. There are many out there. Many of my friends consider themselves to be religious. Yet, they are sadly either (a) the minority or (b) in a majority unwilling to fight for justice. The agnostics and the atheists in the U.S. aren't trying to squash my rights - the christian establishment is. It is up to the religious themselves to demonstrate through actions that their creeds and faiths are more than printed words and potlucks in church basements.

BTW - try living in small town Ohio. CA isn't even in the same country as Ohio - and I don't just mean the color of it's electorate. I was a happy, healthy Unitarian who supported all faiths and religious freedom until I moved to Tallahassee, Florida and Ohio. Now I'm surrounded by Wal-mart churchs and people who have tried to get us to move in several unfortunate ways. I see these same folks parked at the catholic, methodist and wal-mart churches on sunday when I go shopping. What did I do to deserve their wrath? Gay days on my lawn? Hardly. Our crime was - we moved in. We mow the grass, keep up the house, make improvements. All those nasty things gays do to drive down property values and the morality of the world. Pardon me if I'm cynical now about most of the US. Luckily, I travel enough to places where people of intelligence reside that I still have hope for us (and U.S.) and try to regain my friendly demeanor.

 

[SeattleRedBear]

BTW - try living in small town Ohio. CA isn't even in the same country as Ohio - and I don't just mean the color of it's electorate. I was a happy, healthy Unitarian who supported all faiths and religious freedom until I moved to Tallahassee, Florida and Ohio. Now I'm surrounded by Wal-mart churchs and people who have tried to get us to move in several unfortunate ways. I see these same folks parked at the catholic, methodist and wal-mart churches on sunday when I go shopping. What did I do to deserve their wrath? Gay days on my lawn? Hardly. Our crime was - we moved in. We mow the grass, keep up the house, make improvements. All those nasty things gays do to drive down property values and the morality of the world. Pardon me if I'm cynical now about most of the US. Luckily, I travel enough to places where people of intelligence reside that I still have hope for us (and U.S.) and try to regain my friendly demeanor.

I'm glad you still have hope. Don't let go of that. There are a lot of nasty people out there who espouse hate in the name of god and religion, but maybe you've got neighbors or just people you know in the neighborhood who have a different opinion of gay people since they know one more (or even one). You won't necessarily know what affect you have in living an open, honest life. Yeah, it's hard really really hard to be the object of hate and I think that's why most gay people leave small towns. But IMO for real, long-lasting change to happen, it has to be achieved person by person in the livings rooms and kitchens and family rooms and churches and grocery stores (and theme parks ) of America.

 

[Master Mason]

Unfortunately religion has been used to control the "ignorent' masses as long as we know in recorded history. But look at it this way, 200 years ago, there was still an inquisition, 150 years ago there were still slaves, 60 years ago there was a mad man killing jews, gypsies and gays in mass murder, 50 years ago there was still seperate but equal, look at where we are today.

Things are improving, it is slow yes, and unfortunately you recieve treatment you should never have to endure, but it is improving, enlightened people are showing igorent people how to accept others that are diffent from themsleves. Think about what it was like when you were a kid, isn't it better now? Don't you see improvement in your life time, I know I do in mine.

My hope is that by the time my grand kids are adults (not even born yet) that we will live in a colorblind society, and will accept people for who they are, instead of trying to judge them because of what they do.

 

[ConcKahuna]

Just want to chime in about Night of Joy and Gaydays. Night of joy is not run by Disney. It is a special-ticket event, because it is paid for by a coalition of businesses. Gayday its self is not paid for by anyone, it just happens. HOWEVER, during the gaydays festivities, there ARE special-ticket events that occur in the parks. "Beach Ball" at Typhoon Lagoon, as well as "One Mighty Party" at MGM are both similar to Night of Joy.

As for the Gaydays themselves, Disney doesn't officially sponsor them, since it would be very controversial (I assume). If you go onto the website however, you will notice that one of the sponsors is gaywebmonkey.com. Go to THAT site and you'll see that it's part of Hyperion Interactive. Hyperion is owned by Disney. So yes, they do support it, albeit in a kind of "under the table" way.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Psychometrika]

Couldn't agree more RedBear and Mason. In Freud's Civilization and It's Discontents he discusses the notions of eros and thanatos throughout society. Originally, his work ended in a somewhat depressing fashion. In a later edition, he added the final two sentences.

The fateful question for the human species seems to me to be whether and to what extent their cultural development will succeed in mastering the disturbance of their communal life by the human [drive towards] aggression and self-destruction. It may be in this respect precisely the present time deserves special interest. Men have gained control over the forces of nature to such an extent that with their help they would have no difficulty in exterminating one another to the last man. The know this, and hence comes a larger part of their current unrest, their unhappiness and their anxiety. And now it is to be expected that the other of the two 'Heavenly Powers', eternal Eros, will make an effort to assert himself in the struggle with his equally immortal adversary. But who can foresee with what success and with what result?

Freud wrote the original in 1930. BTW, for those who recoil at the mere mention of Freud, I'd ask you to throw out virtually all of the English translations of his work. You'll note I've substituted a word above [drive towards]. The English translation uses "instinct". That is not true to the original in German. If you want to hate all Freud represents, read the German first ... then hate him if you wish. The English translations completely and utterly destroy most of his real intentions and replace them with ideas many love to hate or dismiss.

 

[Psychometrika]

Conc - Interesting. Didn't realize that. But why does Disney have a full page add for the "Night of Joy" in its quarterly publication for passholders? Everything else in there is sponsored by Disney, so it sure looks like they sponsor this as well.

 

[ConcKahuna]

I think it's just more socially acceptable (at the moment) for them to support Night of Joy. Disney is a company that has a huge focus on Diversity (talk to any CM, they can tell you, and they've also been in several business magazines about their Diversity focus). I mean with groups like the America Family Association boycotting Disney because they offer domestic partner benifits, imagine all the groups that would turn against them if they started publicly supporting Gaydays. They still do support it, in their way (there was a great thread with the various pins that have come out on Gayday somewhere around here), but let's face it, they are a business. They have to try and keep everyone as happy as possible, and when you cant please everyone, you have to go for the masses

I think they get away with more than a lot of companies could...just look at Pleakly from Lilo & Stitch...

 

[Psychometrika]

I always thought Bugs Bunny was the original cartoon drag queen. Think about the number of times he seduced Elmer Fudd in a dress! From Brunhilda to "It's Duck Season!"

Musta been the cotton tail.

 

[iankh]

I wonder if it ever occurs to anyone that there are those who find "Night of Joy" offensive?

I tire of having Christianity shoved down my throat as regularly as aspirin.

I also wonder if there aren't those who wonder at having religion Disneyfied? I mean, isn't there something a bit offensive about that too?

Thankfully, Disney has had little success in the Disneyfication of Jewish holidays. They've made attempts at Disneyfying Chanuakah, a very minor Jewish holiday I might add. If they wanted to go for the motherload, they should have tried Mickey Matzos. I mean, traditional matzo is round, would it be that hard to add two more circles?

But I digress, there were some attempts at Chanukah merchandise. A Pooh Chanukah menorah, but I don't think it went over well. I guess that Jew Pooh just didn't float.

 

[ConcKahuna]

I've also seen Disney Kwaanza stuff. Disney actually has gotten a bit more Channukah (I cant spell it) stuff at the Disney Days of Christmas store at Downtown Disney (ironic, isnt it). Christmas just sells better.

I love Matza btw, Mickey Matza soup would be the best!