Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[GoingSince1990]

What does "friend" even mean these days when many people have hundreds of Facebook "friends", many of whom they have never met?

 

[Mouseforward]

What does "friend" even mean these days when many people have hundreds of Facebook "friends", many of whom they have never met?

Of course all forum members here are friends abet friends who may have heated discussions

 

[Girlstar30]

I promise I'll accept whatever answer they give me

I’d say that they are making an effort to remind owners that DVC is for personal use, using the words family and friends to help support that message, and when renting comes up only using it in relation to them.

You could always rent to family and frriends but what they appear to want is for people to draw the conclusion that it’s only family and friends and you can no longer rent to others.

If renting to someone you don’t know is no longer allowed, due to a rule change, then the CM should have been able to answer that question when directly asked.

And she could not… because DVC hasn’t officially made it a new rule.

I feel bad for them though because they are following scripts given to them for how to answer.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Im wondering if the reason why we haven’t heard of any enforcement is the word “friends”

As others have already said a “friend” can more or less be anyone. Back when DVC was founded SoMe wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t anything. A friend on SoMe could just as well be a friend you know IRL or just a friend on SoMe.

Can DVC define what a friend is or even tell you who is or who isn’t your friends?

 

[Girlstar30]

Im wondering if the reason why we haven’t heard of any enforcement is the word “friends”

As others have already said a “friend” can more or less be anyone. Back when DVC was founded SoMe wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t anything. A friend on SoMe could just as well be a friend you know IRL or just a friend on SoMe.

Can DVC define what a friend is or even tell you who is or who isn’t your friends?

Better not have more than 20 friends

 

[TCRAIG]

Im wondering if the reason why we haven’t heard of any enforcement is the word “friends”

As others have already said a “friend” can more or less be anyone. Back when DVC was founded SoMe wasn’t a thing, it wasn’t anything. A friend on SoMe could just as well be a friend you know IRL or just a friend on SoMe.

Can DVC define what a friend is or even tell you who is or who isn’t your friends?

Just sort of wondering - Maybe ‘Friend or Family’ is another way of saying ‘No Need for a Contract’?

 

[Maistre Gracey]

As @mkatsy would say… still trying to nail jello to the tree.

 

[VGCgroupie]

As @mkatsy would say… still trying to nail jello to the tree.

Commercial renters calling everyone their friend

 

[sndral]

…
Based on what I was communicated to me by MS, the system somehow identifies memberships for potential violations and business affairs division reviews and takes it from there.

She did not know what would get owners flagged because she said, that is not MS's job....there is job is to confirm any reservations in which an owner agrees it is for personal use, and not if they refuse to do so.

…

Based on this it sounds like if an owner refuses to attest to personal use then MS is directed to not confirm the reservation. But, for questions beyond the attestation MS employees have a script & they are sticking to it.
Thus, I doubt that we’ll get much clarity from calling or chatting w/ MS front line workers or their supervisors because they aren’t the ones making the decisions - the folks who could provide more information work in business affairs & I doubt they’re talking. Therefore, I’d hesitate to infer anything from a MS CM’s refusal to be drawn into answering hypothetical questions about what is or is not commercial/personal.
Regarding the language that over 20 is presumed to be commercial - the word ‘presumed’ is the key IMO. The 2011 language placed the burden of proof on the owner w/ more than 20 reservations to prove to DVC that their reservations were for personal use.
However, the next paragraph (as it existed in the past) made it clear that 20 was not the only metric, but, in those other cases there was no presumption of commercial use, so I assume that DVC would be the party that needed to prove that the owner was engaging in commercial use/activity if they decided to take action at under 20.

 

[Girlstar30]

Alrighty my dvc familia, I just woke up and I dont think im ready for this jelly lol. I never thought I would get a clear answer.

Attached as promised, You guys are going to have a field day with this one, dont shoot the messenger, and I love you all

They are telling people you CANNOT rent to ANYONE you dont know, ever. PERIODT.

 

[Sandisw]

Based on this it sounds like if an owner refuses to attest to personal use then MS is directed to not confirm the reservation. But, for questions beyond the attestation MS employees have a script & they are sticking to it.
Thus, I doubt that we’ll get much clarity from calling or chatting w/ MS front line workers or their supervisors because they aren’t the ones making the decisions - the folks who could provide more information work in business affairs & I doubt they’re talking. Therefore, I’d hesitate to infer anything from a MS CM’s refusal to be drawn into answering hypothetical questions about what is or is not commercial/personal.
Regarding the language that over 20 is presumed to be commercial - the word ‘presumed’ is the key IMO. The 2011 language placed the burden of proof on the owner w/ more than 20 reservations to prove to DVC that their reservations were for personal use.
However, the next paragraph (as it existed in the past) made it clear that 20 was not the only metric, but, in those other cases there was no presumption of commercial use, so I assume that DVC would be the party that needed to prove that the owner was engaging in commercial use/activity if they decided to take action at under 20.

Except I asked if any of the those currently exist in terms of not being an exhaustive list when I sent my info and my response was that right now, all that is in place is the 2011 policy

Remember, the POS states they have a definition on file and that you can request it. So, whatever is sent should be all the documents related to it.

So, until we see DVC come out with something else or we get evidence that DVC interprets the way you think they do, then it comes down to each owner having to decide how to interpret what it means and go from there.

 

[Sandisw]

Alrighty my dvc familia, I just woke up and I dont think im ready for this jelly lol. I never thought I would get a clear answer.

Attached as promised, You guys are going to have a field day with this one, dont shoot the messenger, and I love you all

Another data point!

This is widely inconsistent messaging to owners and DVC needs to update the offical rules and language if they are attempting to define commercial based on your relationship to the renter.

The follow up question then is what evidence will DVC require for owners to now prove reservations are family and friends vs no personally known.

For others, in cause you are wondering, I have followed up with another email about all of this because owners deserve to have the T & C match whatever rules are in place.

If they want it to be "family and friends only" that count for rentals, then they need to actually provide us with written rules that support that.

 

[Girlstar30]

Im pretty good at extracting info but im not sure if can handle a follow up question this morning, this has me in a twist right now

 

[Girlstar30]

Another data point!

This is widely inconsistent messaging to owners and DVC needs to update the offical rules and language if they are attempting to define commercial based on your relationship to the renter.

The follow up question then is what evidence will DVC require for owners to now prove reservations are family and friends vs no personally known.

I mean if this is true wont all the online rental stores go out of business?? (Davids, dvc rental store)

 

[Sandisw]

I mean if this is true wont all the online rental stores go out of business?? (Davids, dvc rental store)

It will all depend on how DVC intends to enforce something like this...which, IMO...is going to be an uphill battle for many reasons.

But, they could also take the approach that if you say the reservations in the names of others are family or friends, then they may simply agree.

Who knows? But, my emial was quite blunt...and asked if this is the case, how does it not fun afoul with FL 718.111

 

[Girlstar30]

It will all depend on how DVC intends to enforce something like this...which, IMO...is going to be an uphill battle for many reasons.

But, they could also take the approach that if you say the reservations in the names of others are family or friends, then they may simply agree.

Who knows? But, my emial was quite blunt...and asked if this is the case, how does it not fun afoul with FL 718.111

You emailed them already please share with me what they say

 

[MyDogTink]

I am so tempted to call my guide and tell her I’m thinking of adding on a small contract provided I get clarity on this issue. Honestly, I like having a buffer points but will only do so if I know I can rent them out occasionally through a rental company.

T&C says: personal use may include allowing use of any reserved Vacation Home to friends and family on occasion. Additionally personal use means the member does not regularly or frequently rent/selll reservations booked using their membership.
=> this doesn’t not say renting to non-family/non-friend is prohibited.

Furthermore, the chat @Girlstar30 had with MS is conflicting. In one sentence MS says it’s not condoned. Follow up is that it’s prohibited. To not condone something is different than to prohibit something.

 

[jennypenny]

While I would agree with this policy wholeheartedly if it had been in place all along, renting was definitely allowed as long as it wasn't a business. For years, guides suggested renting part of your points to cover dues (this was back when minimum point purchases were much higher). Maybe they plan on claiming such suggestions were all hearsay since it was back when guides refused to use email?

I hate renting, but this whole thing really stinks and makes DVC look really bad. Harassing members over a policy that's allowed per the POS is not the way to solve a problem DVC created for itself.

 

[Mouseforward]

I am so tempted to call my guide and tell her I’m thinking of adding on a small contract provided I get clarity on this issue. Honestly, I like having a buffer points but will only do so if I know I can rent them out occasionally through a rental company.

T&C says: personal use may include allowing use of any reserved Vacation Home to friends and family on occasion. Additionally personal use means the member does not regularly or frequently rent/selll reservations booked using their membership.
=> this doesn’t not say renting to non-family/non-friend is prohibited.

Furthermore, the chat @Girlstar30 had with MS is conflicting. In one sentence MS says it’s not condoned. Follow up is that it’s prohibited. To not condone something is different than to prohibit something.

I got ya - just posted that exact question and follow up on the other thread

https://www.disboards.com/threads/e...r-chat-for-reservations.3970408/post-66258654

 

[MyDogTink]

I got ya - just posted that exact question and follow up on the other thread

https://www.disboards.com/threads/e...r-chat-for-reservations.3970408/post-66258654

I read that. So where are you adding on??