Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[DonMacGregor]

According to the contract between each member and DVC they are allowed to rent. DVC or Disney if you prefer are excused from not being allowed to commercially rent.

Interesting. You may be the very first person to make mention of that....

 

[Mouseforward]

Just saw a FB post about some Disney pin release that sold out in seconds, everyone bemoaning resellers….

Guess every Disney group has its issues with scalpers.

 

[Kingkonig]

Just saw a FB post about some Disney pin release that sold out in seconds, everyone bemoaning resellers….

Guess every Disney group has its issues with scalpers.

Yeah, but I would argue that speculative renters aren't scalping. It is a similar(ish) practice, but it is directly undercutting retail value vs buying out limited quantities to create (even more) artificial scarcity and demand.

Both are due to Disney misinterpreting market value of their product however.

 

[Mouseforward]

Yeah, but I would argue that speculative renters aren't scalping. It is a similar(ish) practice, but it is directly undercutting retail value vs buying out limited quantities to create (even more) artificial scarcity and demand.

Both are due to Disney misinterpreting market value of their product however.

I consider spec renters the ones that are charging greater than $20 a point- so in essence, they are scalpers buying up the supply and jacking up the price. That is, if you consider the cash room a different product ( I can go either way on that one)

 

[Genie+]

I consider spec renters the ones that are charging greater than $20 a point- so in essence, they are scalpers buying up the supply and jacking up the price. That is, if you consider the cash room a different product ( I can go either way on that one)

Yeah, if at 11m I book 5 nights BW standard and at 6 months decide to add an extra night… the most likely place I’m going to find it is being sold as a $500/nt confirmed reservation. Commercial spec res people are holding ghost inventory hostage. They scoop this stuff like candy knowing the odds are very high someone will come along and pay whatever price to complete the trip they want.

 

[Brianstl]

The crazy thing is how much one company is able to direct the conversation about everything DVC. They directly influence 90% of the the most popular podcasts/youtube shows either through directly running them through one of their multiple divisions or by financing them through advertisement.

I will never forget how a huge DVC show changed when they took over as the advertiser before they flat out bought it. Went from a really balanced discussion about the pros and cons of everything DVC to a complete shilling show for resale DVC.

They really have a control over the conversation of all things SVC in ways we don’t realize if we aren’t paying attention.

 

[muppets3d]

The crazy thing is how much one company is able to direct the conversation about everything DVC. They directly influence 90% of the the most popular podcasts/youtube shows either through directly running them through one of their multiple divisions or by financing them through advertisement.

I will never forget how a huge DVC show changed when they took over as the advertiser before they flat out bought it. Went from a really balanced discussion about the pros and cons of everything DVC to a complete shilling show for resale DVC.

They really have a control over the conversation of all things SVC in ways we don’t realize if we aren’t paying attention.

cui prodest? or, who stands to gain?

 

[Genie+]

Yeah, but I would argue that speculative renters aren't scalping. It is a similar(ish) practice, but it is directly undercutting retail value vs buying out limited quantities to create (even more) artificial scarcity and demand.

Both are due to Disney misinterpreting market value of their product however.

My theory is it’s less about misinterpretation and more about market manipulation.

DVC underprices the points needed for studios to make entry into DVC look more attractive, knowing that a common path is to bigger rooms. 1BRs are overpriced, yet 2BR are relatively economical. Early birds are rewarded with nicely pointed studio and 2BR, and 1BR leaves availability for people late to game. I'm pretty sure intentionally under or over pointed is to help steer certain things.

 

[Mouseforward]

My theory is it’s less about misinterpretation and more about market manipulation.

DVC underprices the points needed for studios to make entry into DVC look more attractive, knowing that a common path is to bigger rooms. 1BRs are overpriced, yet 2BR are relatively economical. Early birds are rewarded with nicely pointed studio and 2BR, and 1BR leaves availability for people late to game. I'm pretty sure intentionally under or over pointed is to help steer certain things.

I could really go tinfoil hat, and say the deluxe hotel room rack rates are falsely inflated to sell more DVC.

Who in their right mind is paying over $900 a night for a Riviera studio?

 

[Brianstl]

cui prodest? or, who stands to gain?

The one specific company does of course. They directly have not only a control over the conversation, but they have huge control over a member’s ability to make a coveted reservation, the rental market and most every step of the resale market (the broker, lender, title company are all them). Between the huge amount of contracts they own or act as brokers for they can even spike/crash the resale market (for a period of time) if they would chose to.

 

[Mouseforward]

common path is to bigger rooms. 1BRs are overpriced, yet 2BR are relatively economical

I was looking at some of the other timeshares in the area, and they all seem to have a more linear increase as the size of the room increases.

 

[muppets3d]

I was looking at some of the other timeshares in the area, and they all seem to have a more linear increase as the size of the room increases.

Many other timeshare systems do not have as much demand for studios as Disney does. The "Disney Bubble" is just too darn effective I guess. Which seems to suggest to me that Disney is really under-pricing the studios. Frankly at this point it's probably too late to do anything about it. If they made studios more expensive across the board they would have an absolute riot on their hands.

 

[lowlight]

The crazy thing is how much one company is able to direct the conversation about everything DVC. They directly influence 90% of the the most popular podcasts/youtube shows either through directly running them through one of their multiple divisions or by financing them through advertisement.

I will never forget how a huge DVC show changed when they took over as the advertiser before they flat out bought it. Went from a really balanced discussion about the pros and cons of everything DVC to a complete shilling show for resale DVC.

They really have a control over the conversation of all things SVC in ways we don’t realize if we aren’t paying attention.

What's really going to bake your noodle is when you notice the consensus cracking and narrative control that happens every time a thread on commercial renting starts picking up speed. You'll notice the same people saying the same thing over and over and over again, ignoring critical points and redirecting the conversation until the thread collapses upon itself with a "well I guess we'll see what DVC does, it's up to them in the end" and the thread is closed. There is a lot of money in commercial renting, it's not going to go down without a fight.

 

[muppets3d]

What's really going to bake your noodle is when you notice the consensus cracking and narrative control that happens every time a thread on commercial renting starts picking up speed. You'll notice the same people saying the same thing over and over and over again, ignoring critical points and redirecting the conversation until the thread collapses upon itself with a "well I guess we'll see what DVC does, it's up to them in the end" and the thread is closed. There is a lot of money in commercial renting, it's not going to go down without a fight.

I for one am hoping for a bloodbath.

 

[tx911]

I for one am hoping for a bloodbath.

That's going to take a heaping helping of baked noodles

 

[DonMacGregor]

What's really going to bake your noodle is when you notice the consensus cracking and narrative control that happens every time a thread on commercial renting starts picking up speed. You'll notice the same people saying the same thing over and over and over again, ignoring critical points and redirecting the conversation until the thread collapses upon itself with a "well I guess we'll see what DVC does, it's up to them in the end" and the thread is closed. There is a lot of money in commercial renting, it's not going to go down without a fight.

This is why I never state my opinion on any of this. I ask questions, make comments, share information as I come across it, but I never pitch in with an “I think” or “In my opinion”.

Not to be too rude, but I honestly can’t be bothered sharing my opinion when I know what half of the other opinions already are (and I quite frankly don’t care about them anyway). No sense in getting worked up by the same circular pedantry and gaslighting. I’ll just sit and wait to get Disney’s opinion.

No matter what, someone is going to be righteously indignant and personally offended, and the pearl clutching will be thoroughly entertaining.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

This is why I never state my opinion on any of this. I ask questions, make comments, share information as I come across it, but I never pitch in with an “I think” or “In my opinion”.

Not to be too rude, but I honestly can’t be bothered sharing my opinion when I know what half of the other opinions already are (and I quite frankly don’t care about them anyway). No sense in getting worked up by the same circular pedantry and gaslighting. I’ll just sit and wait to get Disney’s opinion.

No matter what, someone is going to be righteously indignant and personally offended, and the pearl clutching will be thoroughly entertaining.

Hear! Hear!

 

[lowlight]

This is why I never state my opinion on any of this. I ask questions, make comments, share information as I come across it, but I never pitch in with an “I think” or “In my opinion”.

Not to be too rude, but I honestly can’t be bothered sharing my opinion when I know what half of the other opinions already are (and I quite frankly don’t care about them anyway). No sense in getting worked up by the same circular pedantry and gaslighting. I’ll just sit and wait to get Disney’s opinion.

No matter what, someone is going to be righteously indignant and personally offended, and the pearl clutching will be thoroughly entertaining.

We've talked about this before, and I think that's a good way to handle it to keep your sanity. My concern is that people use silence as proof of a consensus and say things like "not many people have an issue with this...". Even the auto AI responses in Google and other search engines scrapes this website primarily, as I imagine it's the biggest Disney fan website, for information used in responses, and if enough people don't push back on the narrative, it becomes a fact in some ways.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I tend to agree with @lowlight — is it the best use of our time and energy to argue with the same people over and over? Maybe not— but the problem has definitely gotten worse over the past few years and I think it will continue to snowball with more people discovering how profitable it is to rent certain room categories and certain times of year (that are also desirable for owners) unless Disney decides to take action, and it doesn’t appear they are going to do much more than they need to to keep the membership copacetic.

 

[DonMacGregor]

The problem begins and ends with this (as close to an opinion as you’ll ever get from me): there is virtually zero chance that Disney, or anyone else for that matter, can tell you right now, with metaphysical certitude, that the “problem” is or isn’t “widespread”. Not until they fully identify and quantify how much commercial renting is actually going on.

The “problem” being how much commercial renting affects the ability of other members to fully utilize their points on a first come, first served basis, but on a fully level playing field. That’s the “effect” of commercial renting. It’s not the number of commercial renters, it’s the number of other members who aren’t fully enjoying the use of their points. One commercial renter with 20-30 confirmed reservations may be negatively affecting several dozen or more other members. A hundred commercial renters could affect several thousand other members. THAT is the issue and even a relatively small number of commercial renters can have a disproportionately larger negative affect on the membership as a whole.

The closest Disney could even come to finding out just how many people are affected would be the so-called “failed reservation” or “failed search”, wherein Disney logs every reservation search made, and flags every search that comes up empty, and then cross-references those failed searches with known commercial reservations. Or, every partial reservation that is accompanied by a waitlist request for subsequent or preceding days. Even then, how many of those are just people noodling with the search engine, or folks who just picked bad days and happened to lose out to other members just doing their own thing?

It’s virtually impossible right now to fully quantify how many people may, or may not, be “affected” by commercial renting, and therefore it’s impossible to determine how “widespread” the problem might be. Can you figure out who is commercially renting? Most likely. Can you identify which reservations are for purely commercial purposes? Also quite likely. Can you determine how many other members are affected by the practice? Not unless and until you can identify every single person who tried to make a reservation for days and room types you’ve already flagged as clogged with commercial rentals. If they haven’t gotten a handle on the latter yet (which reservations are or aren’t commercial) then they can’t begin to quantify how many other members have been affected.

I think Disney is definitely working on identifying commercial renters and the reservations made by those people/entities, but “working on” isn’t the same as knowing. Yet. Until that happens, everything else is just noise.