College: Who Pays - Parent or Kid?

[LisaR]

This was an interesting article talking about what parents plan on doing financially regarding college.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/29/pf/college/parents-college-debt/index.html

From the article:

The study found that the average family hopes to pay for 57% of the total cost of college -- saying that the rest will come from loans, scholarships or gifts.

But still many are coming up woefully short, with families reporting that they are only on track to meet 30% of their savings goals.

Thanks to the high cost of room and board, for example, almost half, or 49%, of parents said they are considering having their child live at home and commute to school to save on college costs. That's up from 34% in 2007, when the survey was first conducted.

Another 43% of parents said they will encourage their child to attend a public school.

57% are considering asking their child to work part-time while attending school.

27% will suggest that their child graduate in fewer semesters.

65% said they will require their child to maintain a certain GPA -- and the average family will help pay tuition if their kid earns a 3.1 GPA or higher.

One of the study's more disappointing findings was that only 31% of parents have spoken with their kids about the total costs of college and future job opportunities, earnings potential and possible debt load -- meaning a whopping 69% haven't adequately broached the subject.

 

[Patience]

Do you have a link for that? I've searched and haven't been able to find anything that states that. What I did find is that college graduation rates are very low, period. Surprisingly low. And in some colleges that have higher graduation rates, those numbers are often fudged by the college to make their graduation rate look better.

I also saw drop out rates listed by type of college. Community college had the lowest graduation rate, 4 year state colleges were next, and 4 year private colleges had the highest graduation rate (somewhere between 50 - 60% depending on the year the survey was done).

From what I could find, most colleges track students with "live in college owned dorms" versus "live off campus." That could mean anything from commuting from parent's home, living in an apartment that is walking distance to the campus, or commuting from your own apartment. I couldn't see anywhere where colleges kept track of *where* the student lived but just the fact that it was "off campus."

Students seem to drop out for many reasons and I wasn't able to find anything to confirm that it is statistically higher for those that commute from home.

Edited to add that everything I looked at regarding college graduation rates was older (2000, 2001, 2004 was the latest). I think a lot more students are commuting now due to the economy, and it is way too soon to see how that pans out in terms of graduation rates since this is a rather new phenomenon.

Just google "do students who live on campus at college have higher graduation rates?". There are a lot of articles about it.

 

[LisaR]

Just google "do students who live on campus at college have higher graduation rates?". There are a lot of articles about it.

Maybe I am missing all of them but I haven't found them. What I have found talks about students living in dorms versus off campus. Off campus is all encompassing including those that commute from mom and dad's house to those that live within walking distance to the campus. I'd like to see statistics that talk about a true commuter versus someone living right on or just off campus.

In addition, there are plenty of 4 year universities that are known as commuter colleges. Their graduation rate isn't any worse than the average for their state universities (which is pretty low anyway).

 

[FINFAN]

Students who live on campus do have higher graduation rates than those who don't.

Also, regarding community college, in my area, they are very good if you are in a vocational program. The dental hygenist program, in particular, at our local community college is very good and there is a huge waiting list for it and it's hard to be accepted into it. However, I do not personally know a single child who went to our local community college for two years of general ed and was then able to transfer to a university and graduate. Again, this is at our local community college only and, of course, it only applies to the kids I know personally from my daughter's high school and from my niece and nephew's high schools who have gone to community college stating they were going to transfer after two years as a junior to a university. I believe it can be done but, honestly, at our local community college, I don't think it is all that likely.

I am sure a ton of people are probably now going to post that, on the other hand, they know a ton of kids who went to community college and then went on to successfully graduate from a wonderful university. I believe you. Really. I think community colleges vary a lot and some are good at getting kids ready for a university... and some aren't. It may vary by area and even by state. For my daughter, who was a strong student in high school with very good grades and test scores, I would have been sad if we couldn't send her to university as a freshman and she ended up at our local community college. We saved religiously so she could go to the state school (in state) of her choice. We saw her cheer her first college football game yesterday, by the way, and it was very fun, we were very proud and she is happy and healthy and is thriving at college so far.

I guess I'll be one of those posters, lol. DH and I both attended CC and transfered to a state school and graduated. DH then obtained his Masters. Our CC is highly rated however, but like any school, if you aren't doing your part as a student, all bets are off. It is financially necessary for many, to go this route just to have the chance at a 4 year degree even if the parents have been saving religously. Life happens and sometimes funding has to go toward other things, like aging parents or a vehicle to get to/from work while attending school etc., job changes or even parents heading back to school themselves to stay marketable in todays world and sometimes funding set away for Jr now has to be shared with Sr. While many will have statistics that do not show CC in a favorable light, I am grateful that it is a viable option for so many who can benefit from it. I am also grateful that on-line classes are becoming more and more acceptable and competitively designed. For thise who need to finish school in 3 years to save $, sometimes over-crowding makes that rough..matter of fact I know families that have kids going 4.5-5 years because they could not get into core classes when needed. Having online availability puts that risk at bay.However, on-line is not for everyone, but again, at least it is an option. Higher education still appears to be beneficial, but having more and more ways of obtaining it is the real success story to me.

 

[dcfromva]

Link to What They Will Learn Website The analysis of schools on this website is a little different than the US News and World Report. They look at across the board graduation requirements based on school catalogs. Not too sure about the conclusions, but they do list overall graduation rates which some might be interesting.

I looked at my state and found 4 of my state's "flagship" public colleges had
graduation rates between 80-93%.

 

[Patience]

Maybe I am missing all of them but I haven't found them. What I have found talks about students living in dorms versus off campus. Off campus is all encompassing including those that commute from mom and dad's house to those that live within walking distance to the campus. I'd like to see statistics that talk about a true commuter versus someone living right on or just off campus.

In addition, there are plenty of 4 year universities that are known as commuter colleges. Their graduation rate isn't any worse than the average for their state universities (which is pretty low anyway).

The studies show that freshmen who live on campus have higher graduation and retention rates than those who don't. Obviously, a lot of kids go from a dorm to off campus apartments at some point during their college careers. The discussion here on these boards has centered on the students starting college and who is responsible to pay. Many posters have said that they plan for their children to live off campus when they begin college or to attend community college for the first two years. Here is a link to one such study:

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/article_6e9d3ae8-011a-11e1-b3d5-001cc4c03286.html


For an interesting paper about extremely low graduation rates and community colleges, go here:

http://www.aei.org/files/2012/04/02...ity-college-graduation-rates_173407573640.pdf

 

[LisaR]

The studies show that freshman who live on campus have higher graduation and retention rates than those who don't. Obviously, a lot of kids go from a dorm to off campus apartments at some point during their college careers. The discussion here on these boards has centered on the students starting college and who is responsible to pay. Many posters have said that they plan for their children to live off campus when they begin college or to attend community college for the first two years. Here is a link to one such study:

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/article_6e9d3ae8-011a-11e1-b3d5-001cc4c03286.html


For an interesting paper about extremely low graduation rates and community colleges, go here:

http://www.aei.org/files/2012/04/02...ity-college-graduation-rates_173407573640.pdf

The original statement that I was questioning was, "However, statistically, the kids who live on campus have significantly higher graduation rates than those who don't."

In the study that you posted, it only looked at one school and only looked at freshman. I'd need to see an across the board consensus that this is the norm for most universities before I can conclude that it is accurate.

I'm arguing something that isn't pertinent to my family. My DD is going away. However, I do believe there are a great deal of generalized statements made regarding college and I do think this is one of them. The makeup of the college student has changed significantly in the past few years since the economy tanked so I am not sure any statistic will factor in the current profile of college students.

Here are the graduation rates for each state shown in a graph. It only goes to 2009. The highest is MA at 69.2%. Overall, the US comes in at 55.5%. 27 states come in under the US average. No matter how you slice it, those aren't high numbers.

The graph doesn't break it down to commuters, off-campus housing, and dorm dwellers. That is what I have been searching for. I'm not sure that exists.

http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/?level=nation&mode=graph&state=0&submeasure=27

If you click the tab at the top of the link, you can change to the graduation rates for associate degree programs. The numbers are certainly more abysmal than four year universities. Only two states are over a 50% graduation rate and the US average is only 29.2%.

I do believe those numbers will go up overtime (heck, they can't go much lower). I think community college is becoming much more of the norm now compared to 20 - 30 years ago. If colleges costs continue to go up, many good students won't have a choice and we should see a jump in the graduation rates.

 

[lilouisianagal]

Louisiana has a wonderful program called TOPS that pays for full tuition (plus a possible stipend) for students graduating from LA high schools with an acceptable GPA and ACT/SAT score (you are required to take a certain set of classes that aligns very closely with graduation requirements and in-state universities' admissions requirements). It lasts for 8 semesters and pays for public universities or pays the amount public university costs if you want to go to an in-state private school. I stayed in dorms throughout college and my parents specifically asked that I not work at least the first few semesters so that I could focus on academics (my DH had an on-campus job throughout college).

My school district (employer) paid for my courses that applied toward my masters and education specialist degrees though a joint program with the university.

My parents have very kindly offered to pay for vet school (career change) if I get in, otherwise I would have used grants/loans. If I hadn't had TOPS for undergrad that might not have happened.

 

[Patience]

Lisa R, you're right, I only posted one study about students (freshmen) who live on campus but if you google, there are several of them. Regarding college students other than freshmen, I think it would be difficult to find a study like what you are asking about simply because at a lot of universities, only freshmen are guaranteed on campus housing and the majority of upper classmen live off campus in apartments, etc. The studies find that freshmen who live on campus do better than those who live off campus. The poster who stated what you bolded was responding to those who stated that it was not desirable nor necessary for their children to go away to college and have the dorm experience (presumably as freshmen).

I also think you may be right about communitiy colleges and 2 year colleges bringing up their graduation rates as more and more students pick them for financial reasons. However, I think the low graduation rates help illustrate why it is important to save for college if at all possible and to start saving earlier rather than later. The "well, they can just go to community college because I haven't saved nor do I want to" attitude can have a significant effect on a child's future. Again, I do understand that there are families who cannot save. My comments are about those who could save but don't because they have other spending priorities. I do not include retirement savings in that category- the first priority should be retirement saving, then college saving, then saving for everything else, in my opinion and my opinion only.

 

[Colleen27]

However, statistically, the kids who live on campus have significantly higher graduation rates than those who don't. So they may drink and some of them may flunk out (and I know my share who did as well), but if you play the odds, you are better off having your kid live at school.

In any economy you need to pay for what you can afford and not sacrifice your own future, or your children's, for the experience. However, you really sound like you want to justify that what you can afford is best - and it probably is for your family. However, there are lots of people who CAN afford to have their kids stay on campus. If you can, then you have to decide if that is the experience you want them to have. And while they might drink, they are more likely to graduate, more likely to go to graduate school, they build a structured independence, they integrate into the schools social life smoother - making them more likely to stay. Study after study - if you can have your kids live at school, they will be statistically better off.

By the way, I got drunk ONCE in college, enough to get a hangover, hated the hangover, and never got drunk again until I was in my late twenties. I hung with a group of people who didn't drink in college. I also had a steady boyfriend that I married (and later divorced).

Around here the community college has a 30% graduation or transfer rate....70% of the students don't make it through. And only a few of those 30% are prepared for a four year school - although the credits transfer, most simply can't pass the upper division coursework the first time with the background and study skills they have from community college. It can be a smart choice - here it would be a horrible choice if you play the odds.

I don't think "playing the odds' really makes sense in terms of these numbers because success or failure has more to do with the student than the setting. Community colleges accept a lot of students who couldn't handle traditional universities, and that brings down the overall numbers. It doesn't, however, effect the chances of any specific student who is at community college to save money rather than because of a lack of academic ability or the need to balance an adult life with education.

You tend to find similar numbers for any school that attracts a large percentage of adult/returning students as well as for any that offers remedial programs to bring students up to college level. Those groups are simply less likely to complete their program than traditional students. The two universities that I could transfer to (based on geographic limits) have 31% and 40% graduation rates; both are 4 year state schools that offer on-campus housing, but because of their urban/suburban locations and non-selective admissions they both have large non-traditional student bodies.

 

[BubMunkeyBles]

The studies show that freshmen who live on campus have higher graduation and retention rates than those who don't. Obviously, a lot of kids go from a dorm to off campus apartments at some point during their college careers. The discussion here on these boards has centered on the students starting college and who is responsible to pay. Many posters have said that they plan for their children to live off campus when they begin college or to attend community college for the first two years. Here is a link to one such study:

http://www.iowastatedaily.com/news/article_6e9d3ae8-011a-11e1-b3d5-001cc4c03286.html


For an interesting paper about extremely low graduation rates and community colleges, go here:

http://www.aei.org/files/2012/04/02...ity-college-graduation-rates_173407573640.pdf

Makes sense to me. I was actually an RA at a mostly commuter university (USF) and they were starting to make freshmen live on campus if they were not from the immediate surrounding counties.

My kids will be living on campus if they want any help from us financially, at least for the first year. It was so much easier to go to class living on campus. It's right there, no excuses. My grades were much better the years I was living on campus than the couple I lived off.

 

[Colleen27]

I also think you may be right about communitiy colleges and 2 year colleges bringing up their graduation rates as more and more students pick them for financial reasons. However, I think the low graduation rates help illustrate why it is important to save for college if at all possible and to start saving earlier rather than later. The "well, they can just go to community college because I haven't saved nor do I want to" attitude can have a significant effect on a child's future. Again, I do understand that there are families who cannot save. My comments are about those who could save but don't because they have other spending priorities. I do not include retirement savings in that category- the first priority should be retirement saving, then college saving, then saving for everything else, in my opinion and my opinion only.

But those rates aren't predictive - they are simply a snapshot of the school's student profile. I graduated from a CC on my second go-round. In that time, I had classmates who dropped out because of everything from car problems to divorce - adult students often have to put supporting a family above finishing their education. There's nothing about the school or campus environment that would get in the way of a traditional student on a 2+2 plan and most that I've known who were on that track did go on to university, but only 35% of students are traditional, under-25, dependent students and that skews the overall rate.

 

[Patience]

I don't think "playing the odds' really makes sense in terms of these numbers because success or failure has more to do with the student than the setting. Community colleges accept a lot of students who couldn't handle traditional universities, and that brings down the overall numbers. It doesn't, however, effect the chances of any specific student who is at community college to save money rather than because of a lack of academic ability or the need to balance an adult life with education.

You tend to find similar numbers for any school that attracts a large percentage of adult/returning students as well as for any that offers remedial programs to bring students up to college level. Those groups are simply less likely to complete their program than traditional students. The two universities that I could transfer to (based on geographic limits) have 31% and 40% graduation rates; both are 4 year state schools that offer on-campus housing, but because of their urban/suburban locations and non-selective admissions they both have large non-traditional student bodies.

Colleen, the study I referenced compared students who lived on campus with students who lived off campus at the same university. In other words, it compared students with similar academic backgrounds. The study found that freshmen who lived on campus did better in the long run than those who did not. It did not compare kids living on campus at a four year university to those living at home and going to a community college. Again, the poster you quoted was responding to those who felt wanting your child to have the "dorm experience" and live on campus (presumably as a freshman because that is the usual sequence of events) was all about drinking and partying and is worthless. It's not and the statitistics show it's not.

 

[Patience]

But those rates aren't predictive - they are simply a snapshot of the school's student profile. I graduated from a CC on my second go-round. In that time, I had classmates who dropped out because of everything from car problems to divorce - adult students often have to put supporting a family above finishing their education. There's nothing about the school or campus environment that would get in the way of a traditional student on a 2+2 plan and most that I've known who were on that track did go on to university, but only 35% of students are traditional, under-25, dependent students and that skews the overall rate.

I agree that community colleges have a very different student profile than most 4 year colleges or universities. The evidence, however, tends to show that living on campus as a freshman has benefits that a student will not have if they do the first two years at community college. Of course there are students who will do well no matter what but we are talking about planning and saving and paying for college for our kids. I wanted to do what I felt gave my child the best possible chance at success so I saved for her and her sister's college educations at four year universities.

 

[LisaR]

But those rates aren't predictive - they are simply a snapshot of the school's student profile. I graduated from a CC on my second go-round. In that time, I had classmates who dropped out because of everything from car problems to divorce - adult students often have to put supporting a family above finishing their education. There's nothing about the school or campus environment that would get in the way of a traditional student on a 2+2 plan and most that I've known who were on that track did go on to university, but only 35% of students are traditional, under-25, dependent students and that skews the overall rate.

I agree. My DD is dual enrolled. She really feels for so many people in her classes that are juggling so many different things (single parent, multiple jobs, sick kids, cars that break down). Our community college is really good. That isn't the problem. Life just gets in the way of so many people who attend CC.

On the plus side, it certainly makes DD realize just how lucky she is; free education, a good car, and absolutely nothing to interfere with her learning. Dual enrolled students do very well at our CC and our state makes it a very simple process to get into our 4 year universities after getting your AA. I would also venture to guess that those on the younger side without all of the extra responsibilities do very well. Unfortunately, that isn't the overall makeup of most CC populations.

 

[LisaR]

Lisa R, you're right, I only posted one study about students (freshmen) who live on campus but if you google, there are several of them. Regarding college students other than freshmen, I think it would be difficult to find a study like what you are asking about simply because at a lot of universities, only freshmen are guaranteed on campus housing and the majority of upper classmen live off campus in apartments, etc. The studies find that freshmen who live on campus do better than those who live off campus. The poster who stated what you bolded was responding to those who stated that it was not desirable nor necessary for their children to go away to college and have the dorm experience (presumably as freshmen).

I also think you may be right about communitiy colleges and 2 year colleges bringing up their graduation rates as more and more students pick them for financial reasons. However, I think the low graduation rates help illustrate why it is important to save for college if at all possible and to start saving earlier rather than later. The "well, they can just go to community college because I haven't saved nor do I want to" attitude can have a significant effect on a child's future. Again, I do understand that there are families who cannot save. My comments are about those who could save but don't because they have other spending priorities. I do not include retirement savings in that category- the first priority should be retirement saving, then college saving, then saving for everything else, in my opinion and my opinion only.

I agree. I'm always shocked by the number of people who don't even have kids yet, but have already decided they aren't going to save for college once they have them. It is their money but I just couldn't do it that way.

 

[dcfromva]

Colleen, the study I referenced compared students who lived on campus with students who lived off campus at the same university. In other words, it compared students with similar academic backgrounds. The study found that freshmen who lived on campus did better in the long run than those who did not. It did not compare kids living on campus at a four year university to those living at home and going to a community college. Again, the poster you quoted was responding to those who felt wanting your child to have the "dorm experience" and live on campus (presumably as a freshman because that is the usual sequence of events) was all about drinking and partying and is worthless. It's not and the statitistics show it's not.

I wonder how much economics have to do with this? One reason for going to CC and/or commute from home is to save money. It would seem that not having enough money to stay in residence may be the same reason someone may not be able to continue and finish college.

 

[tnd]

We will pay for our children's undergraduate education in full, though we will likely to expect them to have a part-time job to pay for extras. We expect/hope they will go to a small private college and live on campus, hopefully far away from us, though we do have very good state schools where we live now, so I would not be upset if they went to one of those. Living on my own and not being able to go home other than at long breaks was a great experience and taught me a ton about managing things on my own.

Both my parents and in-laws paid for my husband and my undergrad degrees, which has been a huge boon to both of us when we were pursuing advanced degrees (MD for my husband, JD for me). Not having the undergrad debt made it possible to get these more easily and start our lives. It was a wonderful gift and the only thing they have asked of us is to do it for our children.

I do not believe we slacked off or did not appreciate our educations more because our parents paid for them. If anything, especially for me, knowing what a huge sacrifice it was for my very middle class parents to send me to one of the most expensive schools in the country at time time, motivated me to work harder. I actually finished my degree in 3 years rather than 4 because I wanted to save them the money. Like most things in life, it depends on the people involved.

 

[crisi]

I wonder how much economics have to do with this? One reason for going to CC and/or commute from home is to save money. It would seem that not having enough money to stay in residence may be the same reason someone may not be able to continue and finish college.

Its probably a big part of it.

Anecdotally, a friend of mine teaches at a local community college where she founded a program to try and increase the abysmal graduation rate. She has young adults coming to school who live in their cars. Lots of single parents. (I knew a few of them when I went to the University of Minnesota twenty years ago too, both homeless students (they slept in the student union, showed at the rec facilities, and worked midnight to 8am as security guards to have somewhere to be in the middle of the night).

But it also has to do with expectations and the amount of support both available and accessible. Being on campus 24 hours a day means that there are more opportunities to work with tutors, meet up for study groups, and hit the library. When I commuted into school, if study group met Tuesday night and my only Tuesday class was 10-11am, I wasn't driving back in half an hour to go to study group. When I lived on campus, I had nothing better to do on Tuesday night (well, except drink ) and study group was a chance to meet more people.

And it has to do with the peer group. At a four year school you can find the party crowd, but it isn't hard to find the pre-med/pre-law/engineering crowd. And its easier to find those people when you have the social network of the dorms available. Commute, and you get isolated, those people are harder to find, and can be (in my experience) much more cliquish if many of them live on (or very near) campus. Go to a community college, and they are rare.

I did college four ways - I started at 16 at a community college. At 17 moved into the dorms eight hours from home, moved back home after a year (there was a boy involved ), commuted for a year, then moved into an apartment close to school. As an adult, I went back and commuted at a commuter school while working full time with two kids. The most difficult experiences where the community college (because it was a long commute and no one was serious), and being a commuter at a four year school. By far the easiest was going back at 40 with two kids and a full time job (education is so wasted on the young) - but I can't recommend waiting that long. The other easy way was living on campus. I had so many contacts.

 

[Angie789]

I wonder how much economics have to do with this? One reason for going to CC and/or commute from home is to save money. It would seem that not having enough money to stay in residence may be the same reason someone may not be able to continue and finish college.

You are exactly right and the author of the one quality study (using multiple campuses, controlling for housing options and looking at demographic variables) I could find confirms it. Here is an interview with the author - it summarizes what she found & is much shorter than the published articlehttp://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Sociologist-studies-whether-dorm-life-key-to-1705236.php

Students who live on campus are FAR more likely to be white & come from higher socio-economic families. THOSE are the factors that (unfortunately) truly predict graduation rates. It is missing the bigger issues to say that simply living on campus predicts higher grad rates.

And although it doesn't have the weight of a peer reviewed study, I'll share my own experiences. I am a professor at a mid-sized faith-based university where a large percentage of the student population lives on campus - it's just the culture of the school. Most of the off-campus students are local so they are living with their parents. I went back & looked at my class rosters from several years, and I see no difference between on & off campus students in terms of graduation rates. Of course, the school I teach at is quite expensive, so there is definitely a socio-economic variable to be considered even with my casual observations.

ETA: I just realized I missed something else from that article. Some on this thread have argued that if you can afford it & you want what's best for your child, you'll have them live on campus. But according to that study, that is wrong-headed. If you can afford it & you can provide an environment for school success, then it really doesn't matter whether they live on campus or not. (In terms of grades/graduation rate - I do know that there are social aspects to living on campus that aren't addressed in this study). The students who would most benefit from living on campus are the ones that can't afford it & don't live in an environment that is giving them all the tools to succeed.