College: Who Pays - Parent or Kid?

[Elinor Dashwood]

I agree with those of you who point out that retirement money is not so easily regained. Much easier for a young adult to pay off a few student loans rather than have parents who are destitute in their golden years.

I really think this idea that "college is for all" mentality is for the birds. While I fully realize that is a very controversial statement, I think it's true. Not all kids are cut out for college and not all parents can afford to foot the bill, or even 1/2 the bill. Telling your children that they can pick anywhere they want is ludicrous to me, and unrealistic. There's nothing wrong with going to community college for awhile. Just because it's not the full college experience shouldn't matter I think. Paying thousands and thousands of dollars that most kids and parents don't have just to experience dorm life seems crazy to me. But I guess that depends on what you value college to be....I tend to think it's for higher education and not a social life. I'd rather my kids stay local, work part time while in college and graduate without massive debt. Why is living at home so undervalued it seems?

Interesting article and the soaring price of average college tuition:

http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/13/news/economy/college_tuition_middle_class/index.htm

 

[disykat]

Why is living at home so undervalued it seems?

I don't think it's so much that living at home is UNDERvalued, just that living in a dorm is highly valued. I definitely wanted my kids to have that experience. I made choices with that in mind and saved accordingly. I'm willing to make it a priority over other things - partly because there aren't good local options for my kids and partly because I WANT them to be able to go "away" to school if that's what they want.

That said, just because I valued it enough to work hard to make it possible doesn't mean I value it enough to have me or my kids go into massive amount of debt to do it. I think in many cases it's a simple case of "I want it so I do it and worry about the money later."

I also have to chime in on the college isn't for everyone argument. I HATE that our society seems bound and determined to take CHOICES away from people by insisting there's only one route for everyone. How did we get so arrogant that we assume that because it worked for us everyone has to take the same path we did?

 

[westjones]

Why is living at home so undervalued it seems?

Because our generation (the parents) did live in the dorms and they didn't cost so much and we are a society that wants to give our kids MORE than we had not less.

But my girls are living at home because it would cost $17,000 a year for the two of them to be in the dorm. I know of 4 families here that have their kids in the dorms and the really funny part is that the kids are home a LOT, like many times a week.

One of the said they are paying for the dorms so their kids can make friends, but I don't know of a single friend either of my kids have that I think is worth $8500 just to have as a friend. And my girls, are making lots of new friends even though they are at home. Last night my one daughter went with three girls she had met at college to a local concert, and my other daughter is meeting a new group of friends to play ultimate tonight. So somehow they are still making friends and having a great time.

NOW I will say....if we lived far away, like 30-60 minutes it would not be as easy. We are 1 mile away, so my girls are back and forth all day and night. So that does help. My one daughters boyfriend lives 25 minutes away and he is commuting but he comes to our house all the time since we are so close.

So that is something to consider. Our experience living close enough to walk to campus even is probably not a typical commuter experience I guess.

 

[NotUrsula]

Paying thousands and thousands of dollars that most kids and parents don't have just to experience dorm life seems crazy to me. But I guess that depends on what you value college to be....I tend to think it's for higher education and not a social life. I'd rather my kids stay local, work part time while in college and graduate without massive debt. Why is living at home so undervalued it seems?

It isn't that it's undervalued, it is that in some situations, it isn't optimal.

My eldest NEEDS to go away to school. If he had the choice he would live at home with us forever; he likes his comfort zone way too much. Living away at school is a good way to ease into living independently, and he needs that. We prefer that he goes somewhere that is at least a 3 hour drive away, so that he won't be tempted to try to come home at the drop of a hat.

It isn't about friends at all; it's about learning to stand on your own two feet without Mom and Dad.

 

[mommagoof]

I paid my own, dh paid his own.

We have paid over $20,000.00 for sds to go to college multiple times he would go sporadically then stop going and flunk his classes.

Now at 27 he is paying for his own, just started again a month ago. It was either go to College or MOVE OUT.
(before anybody gets upset that we are being mean, he is 27 and never lived on his own always with us. He has worked a total of 2 months this year, not because of the economy or lack of jobs but because of laziness. And Enough is Enough).


Dd 13 also has a College fund

 

[westjones]

It isn't that it's undervalued, it is that in some situations, it isn't optimal.

My eldest NEEDS to go away to school. If he had the choice he would live at home with us forever; he likes his comfort zone way too much. Living away at school is a good way to ease into living independently, and he needs that. We prefer that he goes somewhere that is at least a 3 hour drive away, so that he won't be tempted to try to come home at the drop of a hat.

It isn't about friends at all; it's about learning to stand on your own two feet without Mom and Dad.

Well see....there are different reasons for why parents have to do things that are best for their kids.

We are hoping that our daughters get jobs at a summer camp next summer (they already applied) so they can get some of that 'live away from home' experience.

But so far, the living at home thing is working out well. Tonight one of my daughter is staying over night at the dorms with a friend. So they can always do that....and it doesn't cost me anything

 

[crisi]

I don't just look at college as ROI for a job, but for the average US family it is not an issue that can be ignored, either. The quality of the experience is absolutely worth something, but the question is, how much? And how much debt can you realistically afford to take on for experience' sake? In my mind, spending, say, 3X as much as you would at your second-choice school is probably not worth it if the primary difference is the quality of the experience. 20% more might be worth it, even 60%, perhaps, depending on how much money it is in real terms, but 300%? ... no, not if coming up with the money means taking on more debt than you are likely to be able to pay off in 10 years, or having your parents fail to keep up contributions to a retirement fund.

I think that when it comes to the "experience" of college, a student really needs to parse out what part of the experience will come from the college environment, and what part will come from the instructional resources of the school. One could argue, for instance, that for an architecture student, being in a large city where there are lots of buildings and building styles to study, as well as large firms that might provide internships, is a definite benefit. Does the large city NEED to be NYC, or could it be another city with a lower COL? Are there two schools in that large city that offer the degree you want, and what is the cost differential between them?

Obviously, if you are a native NY'er and your parents are fine with you living at home through school, NYC isn't quite the COL challenge that it would be for the average family from somewhere in Iowa. That counts, of course. Still, the scholarship would have to be pretty sweet to make the experience of getting an MSW from Columbia worth that much more than getting an MSW from CUNY-Hunter, which costs about 1/3 as much.

((BTW, I'm not picking on Social Work; it is a worthwhile profession that is rather thankless to do, and we need those people. Still, there is no denying that is primarily a pink-collar ghetto where in spite of the base requirement of the MSW, the average pay seldom rises above $50K, and is more usually about half of that. I have two very good friends who are veteran social workers (one male and one female, and they work in different states). Both of them are very candid about their financial situations, and will be the first to tell students not to overspend on getting that degree.))

It's a matter of what you value and what you can afford. Many people would say Staying at the Poly is not worth three times the cost of a room offsite. But if you can afford it and if you value it, stay at the Poly. But I don't think it's wise to spend your retirement funds or go into debt to do so.

College is no different. If being near the ski slopes adds enough value to you to make up the difference between instate tuition in Alabama and out of state tuition I Colorado AND you can afford it (and balance skiing and school), why not?

 

[disykat]

Our experience living close enough to walk to campus even is probably not a typical commuter experience I guess.

Not at all! If your kids are getting involved and making friends, they actually ARE getting an "on campus" experience, very similar to students who might have an apartment or rent a room near school.

Around here, people commute go 25 minutes each way to the nearest community college, and about an hour to the nearest 4 year institution.

My son lives on campus at a university that is considered commutable distance and it takes him 1 1/2 hours each way. A three hour commute daily is doable if he needed to, but not the optimal college experience we want for him.

 

[Colleen27]

I don't just look at college as ROI for a job, but for the average US family it is not an issue that can be ignored, either. The quality of the experience is absolutely worth something, but the question is, how much? And how much debt can you realistically afford to take on for experience' sake?

I agree. My middle child wants to be a teacher. It is really hard for me to listen to her talk about the very expensive schools that she's interested in (for some reason she's fascinated with Cornell, though Harvard has come up as well) knowing that she'll be lucky to earn 40K out of college and will likely max out around 60-70K with a masters (in our state - I know there are places where teachers earn more but relative to cost of living I'm not sure there's anywhere that it is a comfortable income). I'll certainly be discouraging her from taking on student loan debt if that remains her career goal when she's actually making college decisions. Large loans can be crippling in a low-paying profession, particularly when that position demands graduate level coursework and continuing education in exchange for that low wage.

I really think this idea that "college is for all" mentality is for the birds. While I fully realize that is a very controversial statement, I think it's true. Not all kids are cut out for college and not all parents can afford to foot the bill, or even 1/2 the bill.

Not to mention, our job market isn't "college for all". Only about 25% of jobs require a degree, and while that percentage is rising it isn't rising nearly as fast as the percentage of young adults going on to post-secondary education. Aside from shortages in specific fields, particularly in the STEM disciplines, we're already on track for an oversupply of college graduates in the workforce... which means a lot of those kids taking out loans because college is just a given will graduate to find getting a job in their field very difficult and the value of their degree not what they counted on when they took out those loans.

I'd rather my kids stay local, work part time while in college and graduate without massive debt. Why is living at home so undervalued it seems?

Because for the parents of the current crop of college students it was a big part of the experience, and parents tend to want to give their children at least the same things they had growing up if not better. For those parents who didn't go to college, they want their kids to have the full iconic college experience that they've only seen second hand. And for some of us, it is simply the only feasible option.

Dorm or apartment life is a given in our college calculations for our children, not because we value the experience all that highly but because commuting isn't practical at all. Community college is at the long end of practical for commuting, about 45min, in good weather but can take 1.5-2hrs in bad because the plows are slow to get to our country roads. There's no university within a decent commute; the closest is 1.5 hours with no traffic in good weather and can easily take twice that at rush hour or in snowy weather. And the cost adds up, not quite to the cost of living on campus but certainly to enough to rethink whether that's a smart place to save - 100 miles round trip every day for classes is a lot of gas money and a lot of wear & tear on a car.

 

[disykat]

I'll certainly be discouraging her from taking on student loan debt if that remains her career goal when she's actually making college decisions.

I think at least one other poster mentioned this as well, but we made it one of our conditions for helping them with school. We told them they could apply anywhere they wanted, but if they're accepted they'd have to realistically evaluate the package they're offered to see if it's an option. We can afford up to xx (in our case it was close to our FAFSA EFC and would cover a state school) and will support taking out up to 20K in loans, total. When they were evaluating their choices, they had to find a school that would fit within that or they knew we wouldn't financially support them going there, period.

They could still go, but we weren't going to enable them going somewhere we felt they couldn't afford.

 

[NotUrsula]

It's a matter of what you value and what you can afford. Many people would say Staying at the Poly is not worth three times the cost of a room offsite. But if you can afford it and if you value it, stay at the Poly. But I don't think it's wise to spend your retirement funds or go into debt to do so.

College is no different. If being near the ski slopes adds enough value to you to make up the difference between instate tuition in Alabama and out of state tuition I Colorado AND you can afford it (and balance skiing and school), why not?

Of course, but affording it is the key, now isn't it? A weeks' splurge at the Poly isn't likely to cost you as much as a car, let alone as much as a 30-yr mortgage debt, but splurging on a high-priced private college education can easily hit that threshhold.

The problem is that many people take on college debt that they cannot afford, telling themselves that it won't be all that difficult to repay the loans with the wonderful job that Junior will land the day after graduation. Problem is, assuming Jr. does manage to get a f/t job that quickly, if it pays a gross of $23K, a debt of $100K is going to take a LONG time to pay down.

All I am advocating here is being realistic about that. If you are going to have to go into debt to finance an education, you need to calculate the real probability of what it will realistically take to repay the debt in a reasonable period of time without living in near-poverty for the rest of your life.

For most Americans, a "why not?" splurge on the order of the cost of a house is something not to be entered into lightly, and in my case, not at all. I make a decent living, but I cannot afford that. My children won't be doing it on my dime, and I'm going to caution them against doing it on their own dimes, either.

 

[dr&momto2boys]

DH and I both paid for (actually are STILL paying for) college ourselves...$60K for him/ $160K for me! There was no question about who was going to pay since our parents were essentially poor. The situation will be different for our kids though. Since we make a good living (due to our education!), our kids will not qualify for as many student loans as we did. Therefore, while I think it is good for kids to be accountable for investing in their own education, it is also not fair not to help if our income level disqualifies them for some loans. We have put 20K into each of our 4 kids college funds by the time they were 3 years old. Hopefully that will grow into at least enough to pay for their undergraduate educations. If they do not go to college, they do NOT get this money. I will also encourage them to apply for scholarships. They will be held responsible for some aspects of their college expenses so they don't goof off too much and waste the money.

 

[Colleen27]

I think at least one other poster mentioned this as well, but we made it one of our conditions for helping them with school. We told them they could apply anywhere they wanted, but if they're accepted they'd have to realistically evaluate the package they're offered to see if it's an option. We can afford up to xx (in our case it was close to our FAFSA EFC and would cover a state school) and will support taking out up to 20K in loans, total. When they were evaluating their choices, they had to find a school that would fit within that or they knew we wouldn't financially support them going there, period.

They could still go, but we weren't going to enable them going somewhere we felt they couldn't afford.

We haven't put a firm number on it yet but likely will do the same when our kids are applying to college. As much as I would like, in theory, to be able to offer unconditional support and finance any dream school they might have in mind our reality comes from a far more practical place. I don't want the kids to mortgage their futures for a dream school only to end up having that debt dictating every other major decision of their young adult lives as it has for some of my friends. That college that seemed like the be-all, end-all at 18 doesn't look so good when they're 30 and worrying about if they can afford a house or a baby while still making their student loan payments.

 

[MrsPete]

I agree with those of you who point out that retirement money is not so easily regained. Much easier for a young adult to pay off a few student loans rather than have parents who are destitute in their golden years.

I don't think either one of these options is better than the other.

Parents who mortgage their retirement (perhaps even literally) so that their kids can go to college are jeopardizing their golden years, and they don't have the years left to regain the magic of compound interest. These parents may find themselves forced into selling their homes and over-crowding their childrens' homes, or they may find themselves forced to choose between this necessity or that necessity. No one wants any of that.

However, young people who have "a few student loans" are going to face a different but equally negative set of challenges. They may be forced to move back home, postpone marriage or home ownership, or wait to begin saving for their own retirement. With those loans to pay, they may not have as many options available to them: The loans may remove the option of grad school, staying home with small children, etc. And these kids have to do it in a more difficult economy than we faced when we were their age. They may have more years in which to "make up the difference", but it's so much easier to accumulate a good retirement package for yourself if you start in your 20s -- loans pretty much mean the recent grad will give up those best years.

Yes, shoving the responsibility onto the kids' shoulders is absolutely easier for the parents, but is it the best option? The best option is to live beneath your means when the kids are young and begin saving. Then help the college student choose something that's within the family's means, even if it isn't the student's first choice. If that still isn't enough, you come to the really tough questions. Personally, if forced to do so, I'd look into splitting the difference in whatever way makes most sense -- I'd expect the student to make inexpensive choices AND I'd plan to work a few more years AND I'd expect the student to come up with some cash on his own.

Because our generation (the parents) did live in the dorms and they didn't cost so much and we are a society that wants to give our kids MORE than we had not less.

And many people consider living in the dorms to be "the full college experience". It is a once-in-a-lifetime experience that can't be had later in life. It is a great way to meet people, and it's a way to immerse yourself completely in your education.

And they aren't all as expensive as your kids' options. My daughter is LOVING living in the dorms, and her dorm + meal plan are a tad over $3,200 per semester. The dorm is $2000 of that ('cause she'd have to eat, no matter where she lives). She could've chosen to live at home and could've commuted to a nearby college; however, we would've spent almost the cost of the dorm on a car, maintenance, gas and parking.

However, parents who can easily afford college (let's put aside the question of type of college and just say-local state school) and refuse are doing their children a huge disservice.

I don't personally know anyone who can "easily afford college". Lots of my friends (and I'm in this situation too) are able to write the check every semester, but they can do it because they made sacrafices year after year after year as the children were growing up. They lived in a house smaller than they could afford. They wore the same old jeans and the same old coat winter after winter. They drove the car a year longer than they really wanted to. But having the money now doesn't mean it was "easy" to accumulate it.

Having generous intentions is one thing, abetting foolishness is another, and telling a 17 yo to "pick whatever school you want and we'll find a way to pay for it" is foolishness unless you are VERY well-off.

I agree. We gave our oldest some guidelines, and told her that everything would be much better financially if she chose within those borders: We told her to look at state schools in our own state. We told her that we can pay for four years (tuition, fees, dorm, meals), we will not pay for her to re-take failed classes, and we will provide a car when she's a junior and needs to do student nursing. She's responsible for books and supplies, meals and entertainment off campus, and -- when she takes a car to campus -- gas and parking. We told her we cannot fund the overseas semester that she wants, nor can we pay for more than four years (she does have a younger sister, and we wouldn't give her less than we're giving the first child).

This turned out very well for us. She didn't find the geographical restriction constraining; in fact, she fell in love with two schools that "fit the bill" and had a hard time choosing between them. She listened with attentive ears and completely bought into the concept that leaving school without the burden of debt was worth giving up the "anything you want" fantasy.

 

[MrsPete]

If they do not go to college, they do NOT get this money.

That goes without saying! I've saved for their educations, but if they were NOT to go to college, they don't get the money -- not even for a good reason, like the downpayment on a house. If my oldest were to quit college or my youngest were to choose not to go, I'd hold the money in reserve for a while -- perhaps 'til they're 25 or so? -- and after that point I'd buy another time share or something else to enhance MY LIFE.

I'm willing to sacrafice so they can have a degree that'll support them and their families for the rest of their lives. I didn't do without things so that they could drive a tricked-out Mustang or so they could have a stupendous honeymoon.

That college that seemed like the be-all, end-all at 18 doesn't look so good when they're 30 and worrying about if they can afford a house or a baby while still making their student loan payments.

Oh my, you are so right. So many of my students are in love-love-love with this or that college, and they don't really have a solid reason. Just today I asked one of my kids where she's applying, and she listed a couple schools but added, "What I really want is Alabama". We do not live in Alabama. Her parents did not go to school there. She has no family in the area. In fact, she has never set foot in the state of Alabama and is uncertain about what she wants to study. In reality, she's a lower-tier college type of girl -- the academics at any state's flagship school would be solidly beyond her ability. I asked her what attracted her to that particular dream school, and she looked at me like I"m the biggest idiot on the face of the earth as she replied, "Well, it's ALABAMA". Beyond "Roll Tide", she knows nothing about the school. Falling in love with an image, a fantasy, an idea is so 18-years old, and it's our job as parents to make sure they choose something realistic.

 

[crisi]

Of course, but affording it is the key, now isn't it? A weeks' splurge at the Poly isn't likely to cost you as much as a car, let alone as much as a 30-yr mortgage debt, but splurging on a high-priced private college education can easily hit that threshhold.

The problem is that many people take on college debt that they cannot afford, telling themselves that it won't be all that difficult to repay the loans with the wonderful job that Junior will land the day after graduation. Problem is, assuming Jr. does manage to get a f/t job that quickly, if it pays a gross of $23K, a debt of $100K is going to take a LONG time to pay down.

All I am advocating here is being realistic about that. If you are going to have to go into debt to finance an education, you need to calculate the real probability of what it will realistically take to repay the debt in a reasonable period of time without living in near-poverty for the rest of your life.

For most Americans, a "why not?" splurge on the order of the cost of a house is something not to be entered into lightly, and in my case, not at all. I make a decent living, but I cannot afford that. My children won't be doing it on my dime, and I'm going to caution them against doing it on their own dimes, either.

Absolutely, I'm just making the case that you shouldn't judge that MSW candidate at Columbia, her Mom might be a Kennedy and Columbia might be a perfectly reasonable choice where no one in the family needs to stretch or take on debt (and making a living as a social worker really isn't the point, the living is made off the trust fund).

 

[ssawka]

Paying thousands and thousands of dollars that most kids and parents don't have just to experience dorm life seems crazy to me. But I guess that depends on what you value college to be....I tend to think it's for higher education and not a social life. I'd rather my kids stay local, work part time while in college and graduate without massive debt. Why is living at home so undervalued it seems?

It depends on where you live. In my family, I was the only one to go away to school. My brother and sisters stayed at home and went to private schools (all 4 year schools in the area are private). I went to a large well respected public school three hours from home. The thing is, my room & board plus tuition was about the same as their tuition.

I should also add that going to a large school offered many other advantages besides a great social life. For example, for my first job I was recruited on campus where as my siblings had very few job offers after an extended search in the area. Granted some of that was also due to the field I selected. (Information Technology)

 

[christineann]

Mrs. Pete, glad to hear your daughter loves school! Which dorm is she in?

 

[delilah]

I haven't read the entire thread, but, I wanted to share my experience. I am a physician. I was fortunate enough to be a National Merit Semi-finalist. My parents really didn't want me to go away to school, and so, I stayed at home and commuted during my undergraduate years. My parents let me stay at home, and fed me meals during my undergraduate years. They didn't pay anything at all toward my tuition and books, etc. I had multiple scholarships and grants during that time. As part of my financial aid package, I had a $400 student loan--that was all I borrowed for undergrad.

For medical school, I was on my own. I attended medical school during the 1980's. I borrowed money to pay tuition and books, but, since I was married, my husband and I lived on his income for living expenses. We took the city bus to work and school. My third year of medical school, I finally had to buy a car to use because I had to travel to other locations besides the medical school campus. I had to be at the hospitals early, usually 6:30 am, and would stay late, usually no earlier that 8pm. The buses didn't run reliably at those times, and the medical campus was still a several block walk to the nearest bus stop that was on my route. During this time, I didn't qualify for any subsidized loans, and so my interest rate was 12-14%. I had to start paying my loans after internship, and then my loan payment was more than my take home pay as a resident. I borrowed a total of $28,000 over the 4 years of medical school, and because of the high interest rates, I still owe over $7,000. I graduated in 1988. Now, because it was a variable rate loan, my interest rate is only 3% or so, and so, I am not in a hurry to pay it off.

My son is in 9th grade now, and, I don't want him to be my age and still owe student loans 25 years after graduation. I don't want him to owe more money for loan payments than he has after taxes. So, I have money saved for him, so that we can pay for his college. Obviously, we won't be able to pay for an expensive school, but, we live in a state that has a high quality state university system.

It was very good of my parents that they let me live at home while an undergraduate, and that they didn't make me pay room and board, although, if that had been the case, I might have moved out. Do I appreciate my education "more" because I paid for it largely on my own? It's hard to say. I have a very great appreciation, however, for the need to help my son pay for his education.

 

[Callie]

My mom was blessed with having her college education paid for (that was wayyyyy back when, before it sky rocketed) and now she is passing that on to my sister and I. She's a public school teacher, and yet is able to do it, which I think is amazing.

My dad never paid a cent to support us either. I will never be able to thank her enough. She pays for tuition and board (I actually stayed in town to go to school, but she's paying for my apartment so I can learn to live on my own).
I do have to purchase my textbooks, and even that is so expensive! Right now my sister is in grad school to become a doctor of PT, and while my mother is paying for that right now, along with her apartment and expenses, that will have to be paid back. I hope to be able to pass down this gift to my children. She is actually the only of her siblings to be able to do this as well, which makes me feel even more blessed and proud of my mom.