CMs saying Merry Christmas?

[Syrreal]

Just a curiosity but isn't our national holiday Thanksgiving...or the 4th of July. As far as I know christmas is not an american concept...

 

[lark]

I think the thing most interesting about this thread is the debate among supporters of liberal use of the term "Merry Christmas" about whether its use is secular or sectarian.

If you get worked up about the fact that some people think "happy holidays" is better usage, ask yourself why you get worked up. It's not an answer just to say, "it's too PC."

Why do you care?

If you want to have a greeting during the holidays that expresses a religious viewpoint -- that is, celebration of the birth of Christ the savior -- and if you say that greeting with that intention to someone you don't know, you're being presumptuous.

It's not evil, or mean spirited, or anything like that. But it is presumptuous.

If you're doing it to recognize the national, secularized holiday of Christmas, then it's not presumptuous. But if that's really what's in your mind or heart, why do you care whether it's "happy holidays" or "Merry Christmas"?

The reality is that many people who get very worked up about the supposed war on the term "Merry Christmas" really like saying "Merry Christmas" in a particular sense -- they are saying, "I'm Christian, so I'm celebrating the birth of the man I believe died for my sins, I want you to know it, and I hope you are too, and I particularly resent anyone trying to take that greating away from me because Christ is so important to me."

If that's your thing, more power to you. IMHO, faith is good. But at least be honest about it. And also be honest about the fact that while many pretend this is a nice greeting said for the benefit of the unknown listener, if that's really your motivation, you're actually saying it for yourself, not for the listener. (Unless, of course, you actually actually know the listener and his or her sensibilities, in which case, it's ok to say whatever you please.)

One other note -- the argument that we elect Presidents by majority so we should select religious observances and conventions by majority is silly. Our forefathers very deliberately decided that one of the costs of our great democracy, and one of the things that could be its ruin, was what they called "tyranny of the majority." So they very carefully selected a handful of things that they decided should never be decided by majority rule. Religioun -- specifically religious exercise and establishment -- should never be one of them.

But, as noted, disney is a private company. They'll do whatever makes them the most money. The day that saying "Merry Christmas" becomes sufficiently controversial to affect the bottom line is the day they'll make sure CMs don't say it.

 

[Nancyg56]

I'll never understand this particular PC war. Sure, Merry Christmas is fine, but if someone chooses to encompass more than one religion in their greeting, then I think that's awfully considerate of them.

I agree. We are supposed to be living in a tolerant society, and yet there are those who are offended if others choose to say "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas". This is a season of joy for many, and if I choose to wish a joyous holiday, I am not trying to offend. I am simply choosing not to assume that all celebrate Christmas. I was never offended if a well wisher does not know that I do celebrate Christmas and offers a seasonal greeting, and hope that when I offer greetings, that my greeting is sincere.

 

[Flyerfan]

But putting "God into schools and state/federal facilities" flies in the face of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which was crafted almost exclusively by God-fearing Christians. Paraphrasing, the First Amendment states that Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion, but also cannot stop people from observing their own religion. In a PUBLIC school, if you teach that God is the unarguable Almighty and you make kids pray to Him, you are establishing a state religion.

MEERY CHRISTMAS!

-- Eric

It didn't bother them years ago when my mother tells me they would read passages out of the bible in school.

 

[PandyPaws]

I worked Parade Control the other night, and after "Wishes" about 8 of us stood up on the train station above the breezeway/tunnel (right side as you exit the park). We held the 4 signs that say "See" "Ya" "Real" "Soon" and wore the big Mickey hands. As we waved goodbye to the guests below, we all said "Goodnight, bye-bye, night, see ya real soon, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Chanukah, Boas Festas, Thank You, Feliz Navidad, see ya tomorrow, pleasant dreams, Boas Festas a Feliz Ano Navo, Mele Kalikimaka...", etc... as the guests passed below us.
When I worked in AK/Africa we were asked to simply use Happy Holidays (although Merry Christmas was OK to reply with if a guest wishes it to us first).

 

[cindyding0412]

Merry Christmas to every one
enjoy the party

 

[jarestel]

One other note -- the argument that we elect Presidents by majority so we should select religious observances and conventions by majority is silly. Our forefathers very deliberately decided that one of the costs of our great democracy, and one of the things that could be its ruin, was what they called "tyranny of the majority." So they very carefully selected a handful of things that they decided should never be decided by majority rule. Religioun -- specifically religious exercise and establishment -- should never be one of them

lark, you drew many conclusions based on your own speculations in your post, but I'll address this one in particular. I don't believe the poster who alluded to elections ( since it was me ) mentioned anything at all about government sanctioning religions or traditions. The point was to illustrate how a society can't function if 100% approval is required for every question that comes up.

But you're correct when you mention the forefathers intention was to avoid a state sponsored religion. However these forefathers also said that government would make no laws to prohibit religious practices. Individuals then, majority or not, are certainly free to exercise their beliefs however they see fit. Now, in this particular instance, it's not the government per se, who objects to the religious, non-religious or cultural celebrations of the season, but more individual Americans who want to feel injured by the practice of beliefs held by other Americans, and even more absurdly by how people choose to greet each other during a few weeks in December. Hardly seems like the democratic ( or decent ) thing to do, ya know what I mean?

A little more time spent learning to understand we're not all the same and "GASP", that we may be exposed to ideas in our society that we don't personally happen to subscribe to, would go a longer way towards creating a better place than whining and sueing because Jones said Happy Holidays and Smith said Merry Christmas.

 

[joestv]

Thank you.
My feelings exactly.

 

[WillCAD]

Can we still say, "Have a Disney Day" without offending anybody?

 

[cleo]

Absolutely not! The Universal/SeaWorld/Busch Gardnes enthusiasts will be outraged!

Best not to talk to others at all. Actually, now that I think of it, silence can easily be misconstrued as rudeness.

Maybe just a smile will suffice. But no, there are certain tribes for whom a smile as we know it is an aggressive sign.

You could wave! But then, someone is bound to say you waved with too few fingers, or with fingers held at an unpleasant angle and you're likely to become embroiled in a lawsuit for grevious mental harm.

I think you're stuck saying whatever you think is best and let the easily offended stew in their own unhappiness.

 

[crisi]

It didn't bother them years ago when my mother tells me they would read passages out of the bible in school.

It did bother them. Enough that people took action, took their schools to court and had the Supreme Court rule on it. They wouldn't have sued if it hadn't bothered them.

 

[Amphigorey]

It didn't bother them years ago when my mother tells me they would read passages out of the bible in school.

Besides, why would you want the Bible taught in school? Isn't the appropriate place for it at home and in the church? If it's in school, that means the government is teaching it, and specifically their version of it. I should think that that would be inappropriate no matter which denomination, stripe, or flavour of religion (or not) you are. Better to have government and religion completely separate so that people are able to do what they want how they want.

 

[lark]

it's not the government per se, who objects to the religious, non-religious or cultural celebrations of the season, but more individual Americans who want to feel injured by the practice of beliefs held by other Americans, and even more absurdly by how people choose to greet each other during a few weeks in December.

It's kind of hard to take you seriously when you say things like, "who want to feel injured." I think it's a safe bet that very few people who do feel injured want to feel injured.

As for your establishment clause points, there is a healthy debate on whether it's intended to be narrow or broad. Most Christians who have thought about the issue think it's narrow. Not surprising, they are the majority. I'm sure if the majority of americans were Jews, they would think the establishment clause should be interpreted narrowly, and christians who didn't like the recitation of the hamotse in schools would argue that it should be broad to exclude such things. But whatever the answer to the question whether the establishment clause is narrow or broad, you sort of missed my point, which was that the fact that we elect presidents by a majority is irrelevant to the "Merry Christmas" debate. It looks to me like you just seized on that very limited point by me to make your broader argument.

(Interestingly, notwithstanding the above, there is a growing number of Christians who also favor a broad establishment clause, on the basis that the worst thing you can do to religion is get the state involved with it -- render unto God what is God's and unto Caesar what is Caeser's.)

As for the broader points you are making, one either recognizes potential religious exclusion and coercion as a danger or not. Again, this usually depends on one's religion and whether or not they are in the majority. That's a great debate to have, and one with reasonable and serious (and unreasonable and frivolous) well-meaning people on both ends. However that debate might be resolved, I'm still not seeing anyone contradict my primary point -- whether or not use of the term "Merry Christmas" is problematic depends primarily on (1) the speaker's intent, and (2) the speaker's knowledge of the religious views of the listener. And again, by problematic, I mean presumptuous, not nefarious.

There also are outliers. Some say "Merry Christmas" to anyone they come into contact with with absolutely no understanding that December 25 for many americans is no different from December 28th. These people are neither nefarious nor presumptuous. If they are adults, they probably should get out of the house more, but that's not what this thread is about. Then there are people on the other end of the spectrum, who wish to say "Merry Christmas" precisely to those whom the KNOW do not regard Christmas as a special day. These people have different motivations -- some are seeking to prostelytize. Some do so precisely because they intend to remind others who have less popular faiths that they are not in the club. Some are seeking precisely to be divisive or to make others feel left out. These last two actually are more than presumptuous and are closer to nefarious.

The bottom line is that the question whether the use of the expression "Merry Christmas" is or is not problematic is much like the question whether the use of a particular word is racist. Everyone focuses on the words, which are irrelevant. What really matters is what is in the heart and mind of the speaker, which really, only the speaker knows.

 

[CleveRocks]

If you want to have a greeting during the holidays that expresses a religious viewpoint -- that is, celebration of the birth of Christ the savior -- and if you say that greeting with that intention to someone you don't know, you're being presumptuous.

It's not evil, or mean spirited, or anything like that. But it is presumptuous.

If you're doing it to recognize the national, secularized holiday of Christmas, then it's not presumptuous. But if that's really what's in your mind or heart, why do you care whether it's "happy holidays" or "Merry Christmas"?

The reality is that many people who get very worked up about the supposed war on the term "Merry Christmas" really like saying "Merry Christmas" in a particular sense -- they are saying, "I'm Christian, so I'm celebrating the birth of the man I believe died for my sins, I want you to know it, and I hope you are too, and I particularly resent anyone trying to take that greating away from me because Christ is so important to me."

If that's your thing, more power to you. IMHO, faith is good.

Our forefathers very deliberately decided that one of the costs of our great democracy, and one of the things that could be its ruin, was what they called "tyranny of the majority." So they very carefully selected a handful of things that they decided should never be decided by majority rule. Religioun -- specifically religious exercise and establishment -- should never be one of them.

But, as noted, disney is a private company. They'll do whatever makes them the most money. The day that saying "Merry Christmas" becomes sufficiently controversial to affect the bottom line is the day they'll make sure CMs don't say it.

I wish I had written this. Excellent points.

-- Eric

 

[cleo]

If you think people who tend to be 'injured' a lot don't LIKE being 'injured' a lot, I've got a whole boatload of people I'd like you to meet! I think there are a lot of people who are just about dying for a reason to be 'injured'! But we won't go there, especially at the Holidays.

On the subject of intent, isn't it rational to assume someone who wishes you a Merry Christmas (or a Happy-Fill-In-The-Blank) INTENDS to wish you well in some way? It's that tendency to hear a negative in what is clearly a postive that could allow the question to be asked at all. How, in all rational thought, can anyone think being wished a Merry Christmas (or Happy Holiday or Blessed Whatever It Is You Celebrate Even If It's Just Breathing) could have a negative intent? Just because most of us are not mind readers doesn't mean we can't figure out when we are being wished a Merry/Happy/Blessed anything, there is no hidden agenda.

 

[crisi]

A good way for non-Mormon Christians to look at this is imagine if your job suddenly took you to Provo, Utah. You have little choice in the matter as it won't be easy for yo to find a different job. Provo happens to be a great place. Low crime. In the mountains. Low cost of living. Cool community. Its also about 80% Mormon. Which is, in a lot of ways, a neat religion (it isn't mine, but there are things I admire about it). Assume you enroll your kids in the public school, and homeschooling isn't a practical option. And assume every day the teacher reads from The Book of Mormon. Suddenly, your kids want you to explain where Moroni fits into your belief structure - everyone at school believes Moroni was real and a real prophet. Now, unless we are LDS, most of us get to adulthood without being exposed to Mormon theology, much less needing to wonder if the Mormons might be right - but that's confusing to a seven year old who hasn't gotten really comfortable in their own theology yet. And to hear authorities (i.e. teachers) refer to it unquestionly may make it difficult for you to teach him his own faith.

 

[CleveRocks]

It didn't bother them years ago when my mother tells me they would read passages out of the bible in school.

I understand what you're saying, my fellow native Pennsylvanian. But that's what I call PROGRESS.

It also used to be OK to OWN other people because of their race. It used to be OK for women not to be permitted to vote. It used to be OK for non-whites not to be permitted to vote. It used to be OK for 18, 10 and 20 year olds not to vote. It used to be OK for a qualified accountant (or other worker who does their job sitting down) to be denied a job because he/she uses a wheelchair.

I'm not comparing slavery or race or disability to school prayer!!! I'm making a LOGICAL argument against your stance that just because something was done in the past makes it OK for it to be done now. Society makes progress. We have electricity and indoor plumbing -- the founding fathers didn't have that!

I want my children to have religion. I want my children to love God. I want my children to have a great knowledge of the Bible. But I don't want them to learn all this in public school. It is not the government's responsibility to teach religion to my kids, and it's not my neighbors' responsibility to PAY (through taxes) for my kids to be taught religion. I teach them about such things at home, and also pay for religious education and experiences through tithes and membership dues at my chosen house of worship.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

And by the way, since Disney is not the government, they can say whatever they want and it's OK by me.

-- Eric

 

[mjkaferle5]

Actually, the whole Christmas thing is based on the pagan celebration of yule, the longest night of the year, and how the holy ones of the time liked to wait a few days after calling on the sun to 'come back' (to make sure it worked, LOL!) to have the big celebration of the birth of the 'new sun'. I love how the pagan stuff and the more 'modern' religions are so similar. Actually, almost all of our religions are based on a common theme. It's just how we interpret things over time that messes it all up...

Puffy2, I think you've hit the nail right dead-center on its head. Especially after 9/11 and those "evil-doers of a non-Christian faith", we've seen the PC whining of some uber-Christians, seeing an opportunity to push a certain agenda onto the US. I hope we are smarter than to fall for it.

I wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Channukah (sp?), Peaceful Yule, and Happy New Year. Blessed Be.

Christmas is not based on anything other than the birth of Jesus Christ. It is true there are pagan traditions that over the years have blended into the Christmas celebration. And there is a widely believed theory that Christmas was 'placed' on Dec. 25 to steer people away from the pagan celebration of the time. But none of this is the basis for Christmas.

Pretend no one knew when my birthday was and we decided to celebrate it on St. Patrick's Day. Does that make me irish? No. It just happens to be on the same day. If people dressed in green on my birthday, does that mean I am based on St. Patrick's Day?

On Christmas I celebrate the birth of my savior Jesus Christ. Even if X-mas was on June 5 every year, I would still celebate the birth of my savior. He is the basis of my celebration.

Merry Christmas!

 

[mommyoeo]

Thread Killers!! Well, I like to be non-controversial, but since the topic of schools came up...

I have lived in VA, TX and now GA. My exposure comes from those 3 states alone.

I have no prob with no religion being taught in schools because I don't want my co-workers (I used to teach) teaching my kids about morality because they had NONE! They would sleep around with each other, in spite of being married, all drove drunk, went out of the country on field trips to begin affairs with students, and I could go on. Before anyone claims that I am judgmental, perhaps I am, but most of these things did break laws too! My experience may be extreme, and I really do hope it is!! I have many teacher friends who are great, but that certainly makes my point I hope-- parents ought to be the ones teaching morals to their children because if you leave it to others, you MAY OR MAY NOT not like what they learn!

In case you are wondering, I homeschool now.

 

[curiouser]

Okay, so let me get this straight.. I can go out of my way to wish someone well for the holidays, but since I don't say Merry Christmas (and I should obviously be able to see inside their soul as to whether they are a practising Christian) they might just get offended because I'm obviously neglecting to recognize that its the birthday of their God who I may or may not even believe in?

For future reference, I'll now have to remember to not only tell people to have a nice day but say Happy Birthday to their mom/dad/brother/husband/neice's second cousins dogs half-brother incase its their birthday, too!!

Or I could just say a less than Disney word and offend everyone equally and not have to worry!