CMs saying Merry Christmas?

[CNMooner]

Your post reminds me of what is going on in DD's Kindergarten class. There's one boy who, in her words, "doesn't celebrate any holidays except for Halloween, so he gets to play by himself whenever we talk about the holidays." I asked her if they talk about Hannukah, Kwanzaa, or even Ramadan (in case that inclusion would allow this boy to participate in "holiday" activities), but she said, "No, just Christmas." I'm pretty shocked. Yes, we are in Alabama, where the population is primarily Baptist or Methodist, but still. This is a public school and there is a student who is having part of his school day wasted every day this month because there is classroom discussion about a celebration which his family does not participate in. I feel very sad for this innocent 5yo, who was simply born into a family that does not celebrate Christmas.

Whenever I'm unsure if it crosses a line between church and state, I try to imagine what I would feel it the holiday/culture/religious discussion was one in which we did not participate. For example, if all the children in DD's class were to make a menorrah for a class project and we were the only Gentiles in town, how would we feel? (Yeah, I'm a bleeding heart.)

On another note: When I was a CM at TDS, I did say "Happy Holidays" because we were located in a very diverse area. We were to say it from Black Friday to Dec. 31 (because New Year's Day is a holiday too). I slipped once Christmas Eve, wishing a mother and daughter a "Merry Christmas," and they jumped down my throat about how they celebrate Hannukah. At the time, I thought it was safe because who else shops on Dec. 24 besides people shopping for last-minute Christmas gifts? (It was a year when Hannukah was already over by the 24th.) Guess I shouldn't have assumed. Never again.

Anyway, if the OP encountered lots of "Happy Holidays," it may have been from other "once-bitten-twice-shy" CMs. To change your standard December greeting, uttered 500 times a day, just for the nights of MMVCP is not as easy as it sounds. CMs try so hard to make everyone happy, they're bound to fail somewhere. Like a previous poster, I think it best to fail on the side of inclusion rather than exclusion.

Is this what is going on in American classrooms now? Wow. I'm really horrified. I grew up in New York, in a town that was mostly christian, but there were some Jewish people, too and other nationalities/religious backgrounds. I remember making dreidels and learning about Chanukah and eating Latkes and also making christmas ornaments and Santa-based crafts. I remember doing activites for Kwaanza as well. If we had kids of other backgrounds in our class, our teachers would make sure that their holiday was addressed in the same way as Christmas was. And honestly, only the secular aspects and maybe some history of the holiday was addressed.

It was school, so they exposed us to all the other holidays. So we could LEARN.

That teacher to made that poor little boy play by himself should be fired. I'm sure if his holiday was addressed with the same level of interest as Christmas was in the classroom, his parents would be happy he was included in both lessons.

 

[jarestel]

The bottom line is that the question whether the use of the expression "Merry Christmas" is or is not problematic is much like the question whether the use of a particular word is racist. Everyone focuses on the words, which are irrelevant. What really matters is what is in the heart and mind of the speaker, which really, only the speaker knows.

Actually, I wouldn't equate wishing someone a Merry Christmas with racial slurs, as I think it demeans the struggles of minorities by trying to shoehorn that into the argument. And an additional point... nowhere in anything I've written on this topic have I said, or meant to imply, that government should decide what is acceptable and what is not. My comments have been directed at individuals who want to see things done their way or not at all.

We'll have to agree to disgree on this, because if I wish you a Merry Christmas with good intentions and you choose to see evil shadows behind the words, I think it's what is in your heart that's the problem, not what's in mine. If, as you say, intent can only be known by the speaker, then why all the fuss? Just assume the speaker is wishing you well and do the same in return.

Regards...

 

[KilleriMac17]

Isn't that what being PC is? Being sensitive?

NO. Being PC is not about being sensitive. I hate politically correctness, becuase all it actually is about, is trying to force something on others. you have to look at it both ways, for example, some people that I know, insists, that christmas should not be mentioend(its ok for the other holidays) but not christmas, they thing it is offensive and NOT pc. so, its ok to mention other holidays, but Christmas is not PC? WHY? they can't tell you, but what they do then is then say, everything else is ok but not christmas, and we will force you NOT to say christmas(even though it is your right do to so), its like a person that disagrees with you saying YOU are not being open minded(when, the same could be thrown back at them).. all PC is, is trying to take away individuallity and freedoms. (END OF RANT).
can't ya tell I hate politically correctness.

 

[lark]

Actually, I wouldn't equate wishing someone a Merry Christmas with racial slurs

I didn't equate them.

 

[mommyoeo]

Okay, so let me get this straight.. I can go out of my way to wish someone well for the holidays, but since I don't say Merry Christmas (and I should obviously be able to see inside their soul as to whether they are a practising Christian) they might just get offended because I'm obviously neglecting to recognize that its the birthday of their God who I may or may not even believe in?
QUOTE]
Maybe what you are hearing is that a good portion of Americans are tired of the word Christmas being off limits in public, especially when most of America claims to be Christian. Some may feel like their faith has become a 4 letter word and a casual, well-meant greeting is taken an insult. People who do not celebrate Christmas are not being told to bow and worship Baby Jesus; they are being wished a happy 25th. I doubt anyone intends on insulting the other.

 

[curiouser]

Maybe what you are hearing is that a good portion of Americans are tired of the word Christmas being off limits in public, especially when most of America claims to be Christian. Some may feel like their faith has become a 4 letter word and a casual, well-meant greeting is taken an insult. People who do not celebrate Christmas are not being told to bow and worship Baby Jesus; they are being wished a happy 25th. I doubt anyone intends on insulting the other.

But by your theory, I should be offended if you don't wish me a happy mom's birthday on my mom's birthday... even if you DO wish me well for the day. It doesn't make sense, how are you supposed to know its my mom's birthday just by looking at me? How am I supposed to know its your God's birthday just by looking at you? Unless I'm wearing a button stating its my mom's birthday and you're wearing a cross, you can't (and even then your christmas might not be on Dec. 25-- it might be on Jan. 6). So what's wrong with just wishing you a happy holidays?

 

[WillCAD]

The bottom line is that the question whether the use of the expression "Merry Christmas" is or is not problematic is much like the question whether the use of a particular word is racist. Everyone focuses on the words, which are irrelevant. What really matters is what is in the heart and mind of the speaker, which really, only the speaker knows.

I have to disagree with you on that point, very strongly.

What you believe, what you carry in your heart, mind, soul, spirit, or katra, what you think, these things mean nothing to anyone but you. They are your own personal, private, special qualities that make you YOU, that make you unique in all the world. But they don't mean diddly in the grand scheme of things - unless you ACT on them.

Actions matter. A person is defined by his actions, as are groups of people such as families, companies, clubs, countries, or even armies. What you DO is important, not what you think. And speaking is an action - an action that can either inspire or hurt others.

So I say, be just as careful of what you say to others as you are of how you treat others, because what you say can be just as harmful as what you do.

If you want an example, read some of the accounts in this thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=975900

 

[mommyoeo]

But by your theory, I should be offended if you don't wish me a happy mom's birthday on my mom's birthday... even if you DO wish me well for the day. It doesn't make sense, how are you supposed to know its my mom's birthday just by looking at me? How am I supposed to know its your God's birthday just by looking at you? Unless I'm wearing a button stating its my mom's birthday and you're wearing a cross, you can't (and even then your christmas might not be on Dec. 25-- it might be on Jan. 6). So what's wrong with just wishing you a happy holidays?

I see what you are saying but there are 2 ways of looking at it. If you leave it off, so an NOT to offend, are you trying to be nice or are you implying by leaving it off that it IS offensive? Suppose 85% of our country was born on the same day and the other who weren't still celebrated at about 50% in buying presents and cake and enjoyed birthday parties with friends. Would it be rude to say Happy Birthday to someone, assuming they would celebrate in some way? Or would it become a bad word to even mention? I am running out the door, a little bit late, and I hate that I can't expand and clarify but I really have to rush. Hope I made sense; I was trying to expand on your analogy to explain what I'm saying. A birthday would have a 1/365 chance of being right but most of America does celebrate Christmas in one way or another, secular or otherwise. Happy Holidays!

 

[lark]

I have to disagree with you on that point, very strongly.

What you believe, what you carry in your heart, mind, soul, spirit, or katra, what you think, these things mean nothing to anyone but you. They are your own personal, private, special qualities that make you YOU, that make you unique in all the world. But they don't mean diddly in the grand scheme of things - unless you ACT on them.

Actions matter. A person is defined by his actions, as are groups of people such as families, companies, clubs, countries, or even armies. What you DO is important, not what you think. And speaking is an action - an action that can either inspire or hurt others.

So I say, be just as careful of what you say to others as you are of how you treat others, because what you say can be just as harmful as what you do.

If you want an example, read some of the accounts in this thread:
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=975900

Sure, words can hurt, just as can other actions. But intent does matter. With words that are not themselves hurtful, but are neutral or ambiguous, what you intend in saying them means everything. If you say, "Merry Christmas," because you wish to wish another a nice day during the mostly secular celebration of Christmas, it's very different from using the same word deliberately to a Jew in order to make them feel unwanted. Same words. Same actions. And while only you know why you do something, the difference is everything.

If you throw a rock intending to get a bird away from your pet dog, and you accidentally hit your neighbor, you are careless. But you are not a bad person. If you throw the same rock in the same place intending to kill your neighbor, you are a very bad person. Same rock. Same neighbor. Same act. The only thing that's different is intent. And the intent means everything.

If you burn a flag in memory of a fallen soldier, it means one thing. If you burn a flag to criticize your country, it means another. Same act. Different intent. The different intent means everything. If a doctor makes an incision believing in his professional judgment that it will save a patient, it's one thing. If he makes the same incision at the same time in the same place deliberately attempting to disfigure the patient, it means another.

If you bring your new African American neighbor a welcome dinner of fried chicken and watermellon and leave it on their porch as a gift, because those were the foods that were on sale at your grocery store and they looked good to you and they are what you like, you are a decent (but not particularly smart) person, even though your actions might, unknowingly to you, cause offense. If you buy the same foods and bring them to your neighbor to appeal to stereotypes and make them feel unwanted in your neighborhood, you are a racist.

Intent often means everything.

 

[salmoneous]

Maybe what you are hearing is that a good portion of Americans are tired of the word Christmas being off limits in public.

Well, then I have good news for you. The word Christmas isn't off limits in public. Go out and you will hear and see it a ton. Seriously, don't believe what the rabble rousers are telling you.

Merry Christmas,
Sal

 

[cleo]

If I have to stop wishing people a Merry Christmas because they may wonder if I am secretly in my heart of hearts hoping to insult them, we're in serious trouble, aren't we?

Happily, most people aren't going to obsess about it and pick it to pieces (as we are doing here, hopefully for entertainment rather than because anyone actually believes they have reason to be so concerned about a good-will wish). Most people are going to smile and extend some sort of equal gesture of good will. Why on earth would thinking people do anything less?

 

[ksoehrlein]

Is this what is going on in American classrooms now? Wow. I'm really horrified. I grew up in New York, in a town that was mostly christian, but there were some Jewish people, too and other nationalities/religious backgrounds. I remember making dreidels and learning about Chanukah and eating Latkes and also making christmas ornaments and Santa-based crafts. I remember doing activites for Kwaanza as well. If we had kids of other backgrounds in our class, our teachers would make sure that their holiday was addressed in the same way as Christmas was. And honestly, only the secular aspects and maybe some history of the holiday was addressed.

It was school, so they exposed us to all the other holidays. So we could LEARN.

That teacher to made that poor little boy play by himself should be fired. I'm sure if his holiday was addressed with the same level of interest as Christmas was in the classroom, his parents would be happy he was included in both lessons.

My elementary school experience was very similar to yours. I grew up in New Jersey. Now that I live in Alabama, I'm noticing much less separation of church and state. (We are home of the "Ten Commandments judge," after all.) So I don't know that DD's classroom reflects the American classroom; probably just the Alabama classroom and perhaps some other Bible Belt states as well.

Elmo is doing a better job of teaching my kids about the holidays various Americans celebrate this time of year than the public school system is doing. I truly hope that's not the case throughout the United States. As it is, I've felt the need to supplement my kids' math and science education due to the state failing the national standards in these areas. I guess I'll have to supplement their education in the areas of culture and diversity as well. It's very disappointing.

Sorry to bash Alabama, by the way. There are many nice aspects about living here. I'm just feeling a little homesick right now.

 

[lark]

If I have to stop wishing people a Merry Christmas because they may wonder if I am secretly in my heart of hearts hoping to insult them, we're in serious trouble, aren't we?

I think this is probably a response to me. So a few thoughts.

1. I chose my words very carefully. I notice in this thread, there is a fair amount of people recasting what others have said in order to make their own points.

2. I certainly never suggested that you "have to stop" wishing anyone a Merry Christmas.

3. Nowhere did I suggest that I thought the problem with some people saying "Merry Christmas" was intended by anyone in order to insult. Insult isn't the right word, or at least, it's the wrong word if you're responding to me. I think it would be very unusual if people are saying "Merry Christmas" in order to insult anyone. I did note a few other misguided uses of the term "Merry Christmas," but it has nothing to do with insults. So, for the record, I don't think that use of the term "Merry Christmas" has much potential to be insulting in virtually any imaginable use.

4. You and I probably have an extremely different definition of "serious trouble." But my direct answer to your question whether you stopping using the expression Merry Christmas for fear of what others would think you mean by it, would be that even if that were what I was saying (which I wasn't), I do not think it would come anywhere close to meaning that we're in serious trouble. I'd put it somewhere between inconvenience and annoyance, perhaps bordering on oversensitivity. I think "serious trouble" is hyperbole.

 

[Magickndm]

Read my tag.

 

[cleo]

Hi Lark,

Actually I wasn't replying to you specifically, though your post did raise some thoughts in my mind about the idea of 'intent'. That's really what the entire thread is about, isn't it? You were a bit more specific in using the word, but the 'gist' of the thread is really 'intent'. So please don't think I'm taking your words and making them something they aren't, I'm just replying to the concept, not to you specifically.

Having said that, it could be argued that you did indeed refer to the idea of specific phrases being used with the intent to insult or otherwise. You did not use the word 'insult' specifically, but I'm unclear as to what other meaning you may have had in your 'wishing Merry Christmas to a Jew' scenario. What word would you choose rather than it's being 'insulting'? I'm very happy to go with whatever word you choose, but I do believe my response would be the same.

And you're right. I was tongue-in-cheek when I said 'serious trouble'. I gave our fellow (and fellowess) posters the benefit of the doubt that they'd be able to figure that out. Prison is serious trouble. Impending dismemberment from a hideous accident may be regarded by some as serious trouble. Inviting my mother over for Christmas often leads to serious trouble (there's that nasty tongue-in-cheek again!). I think you get the idea, but if it helps I'll give you that point and change my response to 'people could become annoyed to some greater or lesser degree'.

Still, my reply stands. Intent CAN be known. Merry Christmas holds the intent of wishing someone a Merry Christmas.

 

[lark]

Having said that, it could be argued that you did indeed refer to the idea of specific phrases being used with the intent to insult or otherwise. You did not use the word 'insult' specifically, but I'm unclear as to what other meaning you may have had in your 'wishing Merry Christmas to a Jew' scenario. What word would you choose rather than it's being 'insulting'? I'm very happy to go with whatever word you choose, but I do believe my response would be the same.

Good points all.

To be clear, I don't think wishing Merry Christmas to a Jew (or follower of Islam, or Hindi, etc.) is necessarily a bad thing. I hope I was clear about that.

But it might be, depending on one's intent and knowledge.

It typically wouldn't be insulting, though. (Well, the listener might be unreasonably insulted, but that's not the speaker's fault.) It might be, though, upsetting, divisive, or even cruel, depending on the speaker's intent and the context. It's kind of along that spectrum.

Interestingly, I'm on hold right now with CRO and it's interesting that it's continuously wished me "happy holidays." There also are some Christmasy songs, but they are all predominantly secular -- right now I'm listening to a horrible boy-bandish version of Santa Claus is Coming To Town. :0)

 

[Syrreal]

Can we still say, "Have a Disney Day" without offending anybody?

actually....i believe have a disney day is really the equivalent of Atleatst that's what I was always told. That it was a nice way of telling someone off.

 

[Ashes8380]

isn't it better to be inclusive than exclusive?
"Happy Holidays" includes everyone. "Merry Christmas" only includes some.
Maybe it's not so much about diminishing the role of Christmas as it is about finally recognizing that other religions exist. I'ts not like they switched from saying "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Kwanzaa", thus alienating all the Christians.

Seems like a no brainer to me. Then again, I grew up in NY where the public schools recognized the separation between church and state. The only in school religious education I received was in high school global studies, and that was fact based and historical, not spiritual. It also covered every religion from Daoism to Islam. I don't know that I would want teachers teaching my children spiritual beliefs. They are trained to impart knowledge, not to be spiritual leaders.

 

[WillCAD]

If you throw a rock intending to get a bird away from your pet dog, and you accidentally hit your neighbor, you are careless. But you are not a bad person. If you throw the same rock in the same place intending to kill your neighbor, you are a very bad person. Same rock. Same neighbor. Same act. The only thing that's different is intent. And the intent means everything.

The intent means nothing.

If you throw a rock and kill your neighbor, your neighbor is dead. It doesn't matter whether your neighbor is dead because you hated him or because you were stupid, your neighbor is still dead, because of something you did.

Your neighbor's family would not miss him any less, his kids would not grow up an less fatherless, and his funeral would not be any more joyful because you killed him through stupidity rather than through malice.

Actions have the same consequenses no matter what their intent.

This is not rhetorical. A friend of mine was killed a few weeks ago by a drunken moron driving an asphalt truck at 10pm on a Saturday night. I'm sure that this stupid, selfish, idiotic SOB never intended to harm a living soul when he drove to a bar, got sloshed, and then drove home in a gigantic truck that would pulverize almost any other vehicle on the road, but my friend is gone because of his actions. I don't care what was in his heart, his mind, or his spirit when he ran through a red light and crushed the life out of my friend, all I care about is that a wonderful man who was a devoted husband, son, brother, and friend was stolen from us all through someone elses actions. Our grief is not lessened because the stupid, drunken imbicile who killed him didn't mean it. All that counts is, he's gone, and he shouldn't be.

Here endeth the lesson on intent vs. actions.

 

[WillCAD]

Oh, yeah, and back to the original topic -

I'm an atheist, but if somebody wishes me a Merry Christmas or Happy Newy Year, I return it in kind.

Likewise, is somebody wishes me a Happy Hannuka or Happy Kwanza, I also return it in kind.

I figure that it's best to assume that well-wishes of the holiday variety, whether religious of secular, are meant solely as polite courtesies, and not meant as malicious insults. Now, if somebody were shooting at me when they said, "Merry Christmas, ya filthy animal!", I might take that as something less than completely genuine or complimentary, and probably wouldn't bother returning it in kind.