Close but not close enough

[Van Helsing]

A coalition strike Friday in Fallujah might have come close to killing Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born Islamic militant believed to have ties to al Qaeda, a senior Defense Department official said.

The official said U.S. warplanes targeted a suspected safe house.

As they began to drop 500-pound bombs on the house, a convoy of cars pulled up to the home. A man got out of a car as the bombs fell and was thrown to the ground by a blast. According to the official, he was hustled back into the car, clearly alive, and driven away.

The official said al-Zarqawi is thought to be the only person in that network of terrorist insurgents who travels with such a large security detail.

The man they saw fall to the ground "wasn't wearing a name tag," but they believe it may have been al-Zarqawi.

The strike killed 20 to 25 people, a senior coalition official said.

It was the third such U.S. airstrike in a week. On Saturday and Tuesday, so-called safe houses in Fallujah allegedly linked to the al-Zarqawi network were targeted by U.S. forces, and about 38 people were killed.

There is fresh intelligence that al-Zarqawi uses Fallujah as a base of operations, the official said.

The official said there were "eyes on the target" while the airstrike was conducted. That could mean an unmanned Predator drone aircraft was flying overhead, observing the convoy.

Coalition spokesman Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the target was "based on confirmations of actionable intelligence provided by both Iraqi and coalition intelligence sources."



Again more innocent people die in a Bungled U.S raid

 

[treesinger]

VH, it's a WAR. We do our best, but sometimes innocent people die when the criminals hide in the general population. Maybe if the general population would turn this terrorist over, no more innocents would have to die in the search for him.

 

[Virgo10]

Civilians die in a war. For instance...

In England during WWII

Killed Seriously injured Total
Aircraft bombs 51,509 61,423 112,932
V-1 (flying bombs) 6,184 17,981 24,165
V-2 2,754 6,523 9,277
Artillery fire 148 255 403
---------------------------------------------------------------
Total 60,595 86,182 146,777

Maybe if the general population would turn this terrorist over, no more innocents would have to die in the search for him.

Ditto.

Roberta

 

[DukeStreetKing]

Why do you insist on calling these people "innocent". Are you claiming that anyone in that house, except for the target, have no clue what that house is and why they are there? Wouldn't you think that they are associated with the terrorists or even terrorists themselves? Oh, wait, you wouldn't think that because then the strike would make sense and you can't have that.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Again more innocent people die in a Bungled U.S raid

1) I haven't seen any reference to these being innocent people (the term "safe house" pretty much eliminates that possibility)

2) Why do you consider it "bungled"? They obviously hit the right place, the just did if a few seconds too early.

bombs + dead terrorists = good raid (not bungled)

 

[Van Helsing]

We do our best, but sometimes innocent people die when the criminals hide in the general population.

And does that make it right???

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
And does that make it right???

I don't see where "right" has anything to do with it. It's certainly sad when innocent people die, but that's sometimes the cost of getting the bad guys.

And I'm still waiting for something that backs up your claim that these were "innocent people".

 

[palmtreegirl]

Why do you insist on calling these people "innocent". Are you claiming that anyone in that house, except for the target, have no clue what that house is and why they are there? Wouldn't you think that they are associated with the terrorists or even terrorists themselves?

That's a very good question. My answer is of course they were associated with the terrorists in question. Either that or they were innocents placed there by the terrorists so if a bombing did occur they could cry that it was an innocent target, Saddam used that move often.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
And does that make it right???

VH, it's a war. Innocent people die. We at least try to minimize it, but there is no way in thw orld to avoid that in war.

 

[Van Helsing]

Why do you insist on calling these people "innocent". Are you claiming that anyone in that house, except for the target, have no clue what that house is and why they are there? Wouldn't you think that they are associated with the terrorists or even terrorists themselves?

Lets face it if Armed men came to your house and said let us in or will killl the lot of you -- What would you say ??????

All i ever hear is excuses - excuses - excuses, for murdering people

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Lets face it if Armed men came to your house and said let us in or will killl the lot of you -- What would you say ??????

So do you propose that we let the armed men get away with it and let them continue to orchestrate kidnappings, beheadings and car bombings?

Let's hear again about these "innocent" people...

 

[AirForceRocks]

Oh, and for everyone that wonders why the US needs to stay out of the ICC, please see the following example:

All i ever hear is excuses - excuses - excuses, for murdering people

Left up to people like jj/VH, the American planners and pilots of this bombing raid would be on trial in the ICC for "crimes of aggression".

Keep it up jj/VH - you and your ilk are making America's argument for us as to why we should spit on the ICC.

 

[jrydberg]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Lets face it if Armed men came to your house and said let us in or will killl the lot of you -- What would you say ??????

All i ever hear is excuses - excuses - excuses, for murdering people

And yet you're willing to make a huge assumption that your scenario fits this situation. I don't know whether the people killed were innocent or not. Perhaps they were. But surely you can understand that they might, in fact, be associates of al-Zarqawi and not innocent at all?

Also, not sure how you consider this murder when there is *clearly* a war going on. The target was *clearly* military in nature. If innocent people died in that raid (yet to be determined), then that is a shame. But the target was legitimate. Ugly things happen in war. We try to minimize them, but especially when the enemy refuses to adhere to the Geneva Conventions, it makes it difficult to determine what is a purely military target and what is an enemy hiding out among the civilian populace.

And as AFR noted, the raid can hardly be called bungled when it was mere seconds that allowed al-Zarqawi to escape. Of course, they would've preferred to get him. But it's not like they targeted the wrong place. .

 

[Van Helsing]

What would you call killing innocent people AirForceRocks ??

you and your ilk are making America's argument for us as to why we should spit on the ICC.

Thats not a very lady like thing - spitting why am i not surprised by that behaviour

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
What would you call killing innocent people AirForceRocks ??

1) You have yet to provide any information indicating that these were innocent people.

2) Even if they were innocent (which I *highly* doubt) collateral damage has never been considered murder by any competent legal authority.

Innocent people die all the time, during war and during peace, but not every case is considered murder. The fact that an innocent person is killed does mean that the person was murdered.

Still waiting for that information on these "innocents"...

 

[Van Helsing]

And yet you're willing to make a huge assumption that your scenario fits this situation.

The assumption i'm making is - everyone is innocent until proven Guility - That doesn't happen in the U.S anymore ain't that right.

The target was *clearly* military in nature.

The house or the person ???????

but especially when the enemy refuses to adhere to the Geneva Conventions

Funny thing is, that most of world doesn't think the U.S knows what the Geneva Conventions means anymore.

I would pefer al-Zarqawi was caught and handed over to the ICC - and the same thing should of happened to Saddam.

 

[Van Helsing]

Still waiting for that information on these "innocents"...

Prove they were Terrorists ???

 

[AirForceRocks]

The assumption i'm making is - everyone is innocent until proven Guility

You have really outdone yourself on that one jj/VH.



Yes, by all means lets have a trial for every single person in Iraq before we decide whether or not to launch an air raid.

Thank God you weren't in charge of WWII, or you'd be speaking German right now.

The house or the person ???????

Either one. You kill them where you find them.

I would pefer al-Zarqawi was caught and handed over to the ICC - and the same thing should of happened to Saddam.

OMG, you are absolutely killing me today!!

The ICC would probably let al-Zarqawi go based on the fact that he targets Americans.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by Van Helsing
Prove they were Terrorists ???

We don't have to - they were inside a known terrorist safehouse. Not too smart on their part...some mistakes you can't walk away from.

 

[Van Helsing]

Well AirForceRocks can you prove they were Terrorists or not ??

We don't have to - they were inside a known terrorist safehouse

Lets face it if Armed men came to your house and said let us in or will killl the lot of you -- What would you say