Church says girl's communion not valid

Originally posted by Octoberbride03

Protestant faiths are different in that the wine and wafers are considered symbols. For us Catholics the wafer and wine ARE Jesus Christ. And when we take them we are accepting him into our bodies.

Lutherans believe that Christ is truly present in the bread and the wine of Holy Communion -- one of two Sacraments in the Lutheran Church -- so, at least for us, the wafer and wine are more than just a symbol. It is the most intimate of encounters one can have with God. This theology is called Real Presence. We do not believe in transubstantiation as Roman Catholics do -- neither do we fully know the exact moment when Christ becomes present in the bread and the wine. It's a lovely thing that we in the Lutheran Church call "mystery."
 
Originally posted by vacationman
For those who don't believe the Bible is the only true word of God and can haves new man-made rules added to it, check out these:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you" (Deuteronomy 4:2).

"Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6)

Interesting passages -- and nice to see that you have quoted from both the Hebrew and Greek Testaments. I like what 2 Timothy has to say - but it highlights a major problem in using these verses today. When 2 Timothy was written the only Scripture was the Hebrew Bible -- that is, the part we call the Old Testament today. If one wishes to use these passages to defend the Bible -- then we have to drop the New Testament.
 
Originally posted by mt2
When my DD's had first communion last May, we were told that they had to take both the host and wine for this. Afterward, they didn't have to take both but should bow their head in respect to the one they were not receiving.

I don't take the wine because I really don't want to drink after everyone else. I don't care how well you wipe the cup after someone. I do bow my head though in respect.

mt2

It is, of course, impossible to catch any diseases from the common cup. The alcohol in the wine kills every little germ and bacteria. There is no medical evidence that has linked any disease outbreak with the common cup -- and if the common cup were a disease vector, then Lutheran, Roman Catholic and Anglican priests would be dropping like flies -- as it is tradition in many of these congregations that the priest/pastor finish off the wine that remains in the common cup. Let me tell you -- that's hard to do when one hasn't arisen early enough in the morning to have a proper breakfast.
 
Originally posted by septbride2002
Did you really get bitterness out of my post? If so that wasn't at all what I was trying to convey.



So what? Well the fact is they know Jesus was born sometime in the Spring - you don't find it somewhat controversial that the Church would choose a date so obviously in the winter just to force pagans to conform?

Sorry Amanda -- but there is no evidence at all that suggests that Christ was born at some point in the spring. The Bible clearly tells us that the shepherds were living in the fields with their sheep -- this happens at only one time in the year in the Middle East. That is late autumn, just before the winter rains come.
The owners of the field would harvest their crops and allow the sheep to graze upon the stubble of the field -- turning it into lovely manure. Just before the winter rains, the farmers would plough under the remaining stubble and manure and then the sheep would not be allowed into the field -- no reason for them to be there then, or in the spring. One needs to read the Bible with a knowledge of the context of the setting - it opens up a whole new world, and as one does so they discover that the Bible is tremendously accurate and the inconsistencies melt away in the face of contextualization.

Similarly, it is purely conjecture that the Christian Church "scheduled" the celebration of the birth of Christ in the winter months to compete with pagan festivals. For that to happen -- one must believe that Christmas was and is the primary festival of the Christian Church, and that simply isn't true either. Easter is the primary celebration.

It is well known that Christ died in the spring of the year -- that's the only time the Passover Festival happens. What isn't well known is the belief that the death of Christ occured on the anniversary of his conception. It was believe that Christ died on March 25, therefore he was conceived on March 25 -- therefore he was born 9 months later on December 25.
 

Originally posted by phillybeth
Two reasons:

1- Prohibition and the Temperance Movement
2. A bishop (Lutheran I believe) by the name of Welsh. Yes, THAT Welsh. Switching to grape juice (which has to be treated with heat or chemicals to keep it from fermenting into wine naturally) made his family a lot of money.

Here's the problem -- you folks actually believe Protestants all do things the same way. Lutherans were the first Protestants -- very few Lutheran churches use or even allow grape juice. Just take a look at the origin of most of the Lutheran immigrants to North America -- Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland. What do they all have in common? Alcohol. Lots and lots of beer all through northern Europe. Some of the world's greatest wines come from Germany.

As for the grape juice -- pasteurized by Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch. He was not a Lutheran bishop -- no indication he was even Lutheran. Not many Lutherans are born in Somersetshire, England.
 
Originally posted by WDWHound
Actually, I can answer that. Wine in Jesus' time was not necessarily alcholic. Some of it was simply grape juice. We don;t know which Jesus used as both the the version which contained alchohol and the version that didn't were called "wine" back then. Our church uses grape juice out of respect for those who will not counsume alchohol, but to be honest, I prefer using wine (by todays definition).

Catching up on this thread is getting fun -- but probably tiring for most of you to see my ID time and time again.

There is no evidence to suggest that the wine referenced in the Bible was anything but wine. The only way for grape juice to be nothing but grape juice is to drink it on the first day of its pressing. It would take 18 centuries for pasteurization to come along and a little while longer for refrigeration.

The Last Supper was nothing more than the re-enactment of the Passover feast. Unleavened bread made from flour was used -- it's what the Egyptians had plenty of and the Hebrew slaves had access to this. Fermented wine made from grapes was used -- once again, the Egyptians had wine and so did the Hebrew slaves.
 
Originally posted by beattyfamily


Just because the Church isn't perfect and has sinners doesn't mean I need to question all the doctrines and traditions of the Church, IMH.

Amen!!! I'm not exactly sure who they think should be in the Church -- but I'm hoping it is full of hypocrites. The Church is not a Hilton Hotel for the holy; it is a hospital for the hypocrites. The holy don't think they have need of God -- but the hypocrite knows full when they need God and they need God each and every day of their lives.
 
I am a former Catholic. Jesus is Jewish and drinking blood is a BIG no-no. I never believed in transubstantiation. It 's just not scriptural. When he said, "Do THIS in remembrance of me" I believe that he was talking about the passover as it relates to the messiah (himself) being the sacrificial lamb .
 
Also , the Last supper was not a re- enactment of the passover. It WAS the passover. As Jews, Jesus and his disciples were required to keep the passover.
 
Originally posted by RoyalCanadian
Here's the problem -- you folks actually believe Protestants all do things the same way. Lutherans were the first Protestants -- very few Lutheran churches use or even allow grape juice. Just take a look at the origin of most of the Lutheran immigrants to North America -- Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland. What do they all have in common? Alcohol. Lots and lots of beer all through northern Europe. Some of the world's greatest wines come from Germany.

As for the grape juice -- pasteurized by Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch. He was not a Lutheran bishop -- no indication he was even Lutheran. Not many Lutherans are born in Somersetshire, England.

What folks? Are you talking to me? I know quite well that not all CHRISTIANS do things the same way. I have studied many many religions, Christian and non-christian.

I wasn't sure which protestant sect it was, hence the phrase "I believe". Don't take offense where there is none.
 
"Easter" is also a pagan holiday. Yikes, I'd better get off this thread. I studied this stuff for years and it isn't nice or fun!
 
Originally posted by RoyalCanadian
There is no evidence to suggest that the wine referenced in the Bible was anything but wine.

It would have had to have been wine. There wa no way to have unfermented grape juice in the spring (Passover is the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox). Grapevines don't even blossom until late spring.
 
Originally posted by susy
I am a former Catholic. Jesus is Jewish and drinking blood is a BIG no-no.

That is what made it all the more remarkable. Imagine the bravery it takes to break a cultural and religious taboo because of your belief in the Messiah!
And didn't the High Priests eat of the flesh of the sacrificial lamb?
It was reserved for the highest, the most holy. Jesus made it accessible to everyone, the sinners and prostitutes, the dregs of society, who needed him the most.
 
Originally posted by susy
Also , the Last supper was not a re- enactment of the passover. It WAS the passover. As Jews, Jesus and his disciples were required to keep the passover.

My apologies -- I should have specified "of the 1st Passover." Yes -- the Last Supper was the Passover meal in about 33 AD +/-.
 
Originally posted by phillybeth
My problem is this: I was taught in order to be a Catholic you have to believe wholeheartedly in the teachings, traditions and practices of the Church, without question. There should not be any "I'm a Catholic but" Catholics- i.e "I'm a Catholic but I belive in birth control", or "I'm a Catholic but I am pro-choice." You either believe in, and follow, everything the Church teaches or you are not Catholic. And I can't be a hypocrite, I can't go to mass and bow my head when I disagree with the Church on many matters.

Yeah, I was a "Catholic, but" for a long time until I realized that I disagreed with too many Catholic precepts to consider myself Catholic. I'm afraid I disagree with the church on the matter of this girl's communion too. But then, I never believed in transubstantiation, either.
 
I find myself wondering just how active the family was in the parish prior to the child's First Communion. The CNN article stated that the mother received the "faux" host along side her daughter as she had not received communion since she herself was diagnosed w/the disease. If this is a case of someone not coming to mass on a regular basis and then suddenly deciding they wanted to be "Good Catholics" again due to their daughter's age...I don't blame the Priest at all. You can't just pick and choose when it's convenient to be Catholic and within my own parish I have seen numerous examples of families only showing up when it's time for the next sacrament.

I just read the article again. It says the mother still attends Mass every Sunday with her four kids so it sounds like she is pretty active?
 
Yup, being a 'but' Catholic is like being a little pregnant or slightly dead.
 
I guess I don't understand why, if the bread turns into Jesus' body, it would matter what it is made of. There's no wheat in human flesh, right? Sounds to me that the mother doubts her beliefs.

BTW, I have never, ever on these boards see WDWHound so misunderstood! Don, you're losing your touch, sir.;) :p

I don't like man-made rules. While I respect people liking tradition, I just don't like all the rules. From what I read in the Bible, Jesus had problems with the pharisees and all their rules too. We make this all too complicated.
Luckily for that little girl, salvation isn't based on what she puts in her mouth or doesn't--it is what is in her heart that counts.
 
Originally posted by LScot
I guess I don't understand why, if the bread turns into Jesus' body, it would matter what it is made of. There's no wheat in human flesh, right? Sounds to me that the mother doubts her beliefs.

But there WAS wheat in the bread that became Jesus' flesh on Good Friday. The mother doesn't doubt her beliefs, the Church is standing by theirs.

And for a Catholic, yes, receiving communion DOES matter. It is part of our salvation. If you cannot receive communion then you cannot share in the unity of the faith.
 
Originally posted by phillybeth
That is what made it all the more remarkable. Imagine the bravery it takes to break a cultural and religious taboo because of your belief in the Messiah!
And didn't the High Priests eat of the flesh of the sacrificial lamb?
It was reserved for the highest, the most holy. Jesus made it accessible to everyone, the sinners and prostitutes, the dregs of society, who needed him the most.

ok, not being a Christian, I can't speak to your beliefs. but as a Jew and a historian I can certainly speak ...

early Christians were Jews and were required to follow Jewish ritual. it wasn't until after Jesus' death that the debate began within the church as to whether Gentiles could become Christians.

what you are confused about is how Jewish law was interpreted. according to my faith, there is both written law (Torah -- the first five books of the Bible) and oral law. the Pharisees, the Saddeusses, the Essenses and the early Christians all accepted the authority of Torah, but all had different interpretations of oral law and tradition.

the Jewish Passover celebration in times of the Temple meant that EVERYONE ate the pascal lamb. we no longer eat lamb at our Passover celebration in modern times, because there is no Temple in which to hold a sacrifice. but the lamb was meant for all. the issue in ancient times was that you were supposed to bring your own lamb to the Temple to be sacrificed -- and poor people might now have been able to afford a lamb. in fact, if you read deuteronomy, there are passages addressed to whether Jews may eat meat that was not part of a ritual sacrifice. the lamb was NOT reserved for the Kohanim, the Temple priests.

the service also required wine -- not grape juice.

if I understand the concept of transfiguration correctly (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong), according to Catholic tradition, isn't the body and blood of Christ hidden beneath the bread and the wine? I just can't see Jesus and his disciples with cups of "blood" at the table.



as for unleavened bread -- we're required to eat matza during Passover to remember the unleavened bread our forefathers ate in their haste to depart from Egypt. but Jewish tradition recognizes that someone may be unable to fulfill a commandment because of illness. if a Jew were to suffer celiac disease, our rabbis have ruled that he or she may substitute some other form of unleavened "bread" for the traditional matza. in the Jewish view, it's better to fulfill the commandment in spirit with a substitute than to forego the commandment because of illness.


though I suppose the Catholic Church must make that decision for its members.
 












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