Christians and Gays, Opinions please

[dcentity2000]

Never blindly believe or follow any passage from the Holy texts; to do so is petty and sinful for in doing so we do not apply ourselves to the task which the Lord God set before us.

Further to this, never accuse another of sin; in doing so we are ourselves sinning, for we have taken it upon ourselves to judge in place of the Lord.

The most prevalent theme of the Bible is one of understanding, tolerance, refinement and love. Why people supplant this with judgin others on "sinful" acts is beyond me.

I do not regard any person who sees homosexuality as a sin as a true Christian.

[EDIT]: That wasn't very clear. The context in which I was attempting to put the last sentence in was one of judgement, ie. we have no right to judge where sin is and if we do so we in ourselves become the bigger sinners.



Rich::

 

[toto2]

Since I have not read the 4 apostles in the Bible , I would like to know , from people who have done so , where , in the 4 apostles ( since these are supposed to be the one who wrotte closer to the time of Jesus , and relate directly of Jesus teaching and life) does Jesus says that Homosuxuality is a sin , and where does Jesus say that marriage is only betwween man and women. Since , for some denominations , The New testament make the old void , I would like to know if Jesus says anything about this subject.

 

[RickinNYC]

.... I just don't agree with what they do.

For that matter, and this isn't meant as a slam, but I feel the exact same way towards most fundamentalist Christians. They can be good, if not great, people, but I feel the lifestyle choice and belief systems too much for my own personal tastes.

Again, I don't intend to inflame anyone with that comment, it truly is the way I feel. And as much as I may cringe in saying this, but some of my best friends are fundamentalist Christians. It's true!

 

[Grandpa Simpson]

I think you mean the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). I don't know of too many evangelicals who believe the New Testament voids the Old Testament; in fact, most Bibles contain both. For most Christians, it is not a matter of selecting what was written in one chapter, verse, book or even testament, but considering all Scripture as a whole -- taking the entire message in its entire context seeking to interpret it as God directs the individual. Thus it is possible, since none of us are perfect, to arrive at differing interpretations of the same material, just like eyewitnesses can disagree upon specifics of the same event.

 

[toto2]

I think you mean the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). I don't know of too many evangelicals who believe the New Testament voids the Old Testament; in fact, most Bibles contain both. For most Christians, it is not a matter of selecting what was written in one chapter, verse, book or even testament, but considering all Scripture as a whole -- taking the entire message in its entire context seeking to interpret it as God directs the individual. Thus it is possible, since none of us are perfect, to arrive at differing interpretations of the same material, just like eyewitnesses can disagree upon specifics of the same event.

Thank you for the English word Gospel. English is my second language , and I loose some words sometimes !

 

[LukenDC]

I attended high school in a small California town with a large Christian fundamentalist/evangelical population. I was not "out" then, but homosexuality did arise as a topic of conversation at school. I really do not accept conservative Christians' stance that they love homosexuals and hate the sin. The anger, hatred, and viciousness of the comments made by conservative Christians about homosexuals have left an indelible mark on me. Their eyes would burn with rage and hate as they damned an entire group of people and defamed them with ugly untruths. The relentless teasing that people who appeared gay endured was so cruel. At school board meetings, pastors from conservative congregations would come and rant about homosexual sex and many bizarre sex practices that I had never even heard of. Looking back with knowledge and experience as my guide, it is clear that they did not have any understanding of homosexuality aside from what they cooked up in their own perverse imaginations.

I have not been back to my old hometown in many years. Yesterday, however, I received notice from the town's public library that they have accepted my offer to donate several DVD copies of Brokeback Mountain to their collection. In my own small way, I am continuing to fight the good fight and hopefully making the world a safer place for all people.

Edit---One of the most strident opponents of homosexuals was the football coach. A few years after I graduated, he and his Sunday school teacher wife were caught in a sex scandal that was so salacious and outraegous that it attracted international attention. They are now registered sex offenders in California.

 

[Grandpa Simpson]

It's nice to see that it's not just one side that can paint with a very broad brush.

 

[mrsltg]

The bottom line is that no one knows for sure. My priest gave an phenomenal sermon this Sunday. He said, "We're going to be blown away by how much God loves all of us." I agree.

As far as the article referred to in the original post - it's vitriole. It's hate filled. It's nothing productive and caters to a northwestern audience that is essentially a choir. There is no point other than the author feeling superior. I know I am impressed.

I am a Catholic who aligns myself most closely with the Franciscans. My goal is to live my life as St. Francis did his, and to follow his message - preach the gospel, use words only when necessary. Imagine how much better the world would be if all Christians led by example instead of by word. However, going about your work quietly and purposefully does not garner one a pat on the back from other humans. Instead, you quietly wait for your reward.

 

[cardaway]

Condescending attitudes like that are precisely the reason I stopped attending church years ago.

Ditto.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I am a Catholic who aligns myself most closely with the Franciscans. My goal is to live my life as St. Francis did his, and to follow his message - preach the gospel, use words only when necessary. Imagine how much better the world would be if all Christians led by example instead of by word. However, going about your work quietly and purposefully does not garner one a pat on the back from other humans. Instead, you quietly wait for your reward.

Not on topic really,but when I lived in California ,I lived by Mission San Louis Rey,the closest of the old franciscan mission in California... There Priests were all Franciscans.. Very cool church with some very cool priests

 

[VSL]

Interesting debate.

 

[Buckalew11]

I attended high school in a small California town with a large Christian fundamentalist/evangelical population. I was not "out" then, but homosexuality did arise as a topic of conversation at school. I really do not accept conservative Christians' stance that they love homosexuals and hate the sin. The anger, hatred, and viciousness of the comments made by conservative Christians about homosexuals have left an indelible mark on me. Their eyes would burn with rage and hate as they damned an entire group of people and defamed them with ugly untruths. The relentless teasing that people who appeared gay endured was so cruel. At school board meetings, pastors from conservative congregations would come and rant about homosexual sex and many bizarre sex practices that I had never even heard of. Looking back with knowledge and experience as my guide, it is clear that they did not have any understanding of homosexuality aside from what they cooked up in their own perverse imaginations.

I have not been back to my old hometown in many years. Yesterday, however, I received notice from the town's public library that they have accepted my offer to donate several DVD copies of Brokeback Mountain to their collection. In my own small way, I am continuing to fight the good fight and hopefully making the world a safer place for all people.

Edit---One of the most strident opponents of homosexuals was the football coach. A few years after I graduated, he and his Sunday school teacher wife were caught in a sex scandal that was so salacious and outraegous that it attracted international attention. They are now registered sex offenders in California.

Well, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I am not sure what to call the vibes I get from your posts but I'll just say they are negative ones and it definitely comes through. I now see that your upbringing has, of course, molded your feelings about Christians. And I understand that. But I do think you are taking your bad experiences and putting them on us. We're telling you that we are able to love g/l and you don't accept that we can do that. You don't accept it because of your life experiences. I understand that but still I have to disagree with you. And the people who trly loved you back then would have felt differently, I am sure, had they known you were gay--maybe because they already loved you. Maybe they'd have been shocked or needed time, I don't know, but the people who truly cared and loved you would have anyway. I don't know what else I can say to have you believe me. I think you are comparing me (us) with people you know and substituting. You can't do that. We've all done it...putting our experiences with certain people or certain groups on to others and judging the situation from that point of view.
I hope you'll reconsider your feelings. I am sorry you went through that as a young person.

 

[LukenDC]

Well, I can definitely see where you are coming from. I am not sure what to call the vibes I get from your posts but I'll just say they are negative ones and it definitely comes through. I now see that your upbringing has, of course, molded your feelings about Christians. And I understand that. But I do think you are taking your bad experiences and putting them on us. We're telling you that we are able to love g/l and you don't accept that we can do that. You don't accept it because of your life experiences. I understand that but still I have to disagree with you. And the people who trly loved you back then would have felt differently, I am sure, had they known you were gay--maybe because they already loved you. Maybe they'd have been shocked or needed time, I don't know, but the people who truly cared and loved you would have anyway. I don't know what else I can say to have you believe me. I think you are comparing me (us) with people you know and substituting. You can't do that. We've all done it...putting our experiences with certain people or certain groups on to others and judging the situation from that point of view.
I hope you'll reconsider your feelings. I am sorry you went through that as a young person.

I do know that not all Christian fundamentalists are hateful and there are many instances of gays and conservative Christians sharing friendship. I am especially heartened by recent moves by gay and conservative Christian groups to come together to address mutual concerns as they relate to young people, bullying, etc. Only good can come of that.

While my family is not religious, I have had many bad experiences with religion that have inevitably shaped my world view. I am certainly not alone, however, in the view that many (but not all) conservative Christians are not as loving as they would like to think. While surfing the Internet last week, I stumbled across an editorial written by an "ex-gay" man who is now married and an evangelical Christian. While denouncing homosexuality, he also lamented the less-than-loving attitudes of many of his evangelical counterparts and noted that they make no attempt to understand the pain that gays and lesbians experience as a sexual minority. His editorial reminded me of similar comments that I have read fover the years from leaders of the "ex gay" movement.

When gays are described as immoral, sick, deviant, perverted, disgusting, threatening, dangerous, subversive, anti-American, anti-family, untrustworthy, etc., it's usually a person using a religious justification for those sentiments. Imagine growing up in a community where those words were commonplace and you can understand the wariness that gays and lesbians have for religious conservatives.

 

[jimmiej]

Since I have not read the 4 apostles in the Bible , I would like to know , from people who have done so , where , in the 4 apostles ( since these are supposed to be the one who wrotte closer to the time of Jesus , and relate directly of Jesus teaching and life) does Jesus says that Homosuxuality is a sin , and where does Jesus say that marriage is only betwween man and women. Since , for some denominations , The New testament make the old void , I would like to know if Jesus says anything about this subject.

If I remember correctly, the only time Jesus dealt with any sexual matters (in the scriptures) was when the prostitute was brought before Him. This is where He made the comment about "casting the first stone." When no one would openly accuse her, He then said, "Neither do I. Now go and sin no more." Some scholars believe this was Mary Magdelene, who became a disciple of Jesus. This would seem to indicate that Jesus thought her actions (sex out of wedlock) were sinful, but He chose to forgive her and help her through love to overcome that lifestyle (prostitution).

The scriptures re: homosexual acts are in the Pauline epistles (Romans 1, I Corinthians 6).

 

[frndshpcptn]

"Without Christianity and the belief that the Messiah has already come, I'd be Jewish (convert). Not Muslim."

If Christianity did not exist, then would you be a convert? Or would you just likely be Jewish by birth? If the early founders of Christianity were Jews, and they never founded Christianity, then wouldn't thier descendants remain Jews?

Or am I totally mis-understanding this?

 

[JennyMominRI]

"Without Christianity and the belief that the Messiah has already come, I'd be Jewish (convert). Not Muslim."

If Christianity did not exist, then would you be a convert? Or would you just likely be Jewish by birth? If the early founders of Christianity were Jews, and they never founded Christianity, then wouldn't thier descendants remain Jews?

Or am I totally mis-understanding this?

Well,I'm assuming she would have been a gentile and not a descendant of a Jew...

 

[toto2]

If I remember correctly, the only time Jesus dealt with any sexual matters (in the scriptures) was when the prostitute was brought before Him. This is where He made the comment about "casting the first stone." When no one would openly accuse her, He then said, "Neither do I. Now go and sin no more." Some scholars believe this was Mary Magdelene, who became a disciple of Jesus. This would seem to indicate that Jesus thought her actions (sex out of wedlock) were sinful, but He chose to forgive her and help her through love to overcome that lifestyle (prostitution).

The scriptures re: homosexual acts are in the Pauline epistles (Romans 1, I Corinthians 6).

So it is people interpreting Jesus words in Roman and Corinthians , not Jesus himself.

And it could be possible that it would be the act of prostitution ( or having sex with married man) and not the sex out of wedlock. So so far , Jesus , God incarnated ( if you are a catholic, I dont) has not spoken a word about homosexuality , a subject that nonetheless seem to be disturbing to a lot of christians.

And , If I am not mistaken , Jesus said something like "Give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar" in response to some jewish people who wante to go to war with the roman, meaning ( if I remember well from my catholic classes of 30 yeras ago) that there is the law of politician , and the law of "the spirit". Wich make me think that Jesus would have said in regard to same-sex marriage , that it is none of the religion business , if it is the governement that makes those contracts.

 

[Buckalew11]

Well,I'm assuming she would have been a gentile and not a descendant of a Jew...

As far as I know, I'd have to convert.

 

[azgal81]

I never believe anything that is in the bible nor have I ever read the bible. I think people should be free to live their lives as they choose and those who read the bible should not look down on them for living their lives differnetly. Not every person in the world has to live by the bible it's their decision.

 

[dadto1]

So it is people interpreting Jesus words in Roman and Corinthians , not Jesus himself.

And it could be possible that it would be the act of prostitution ( or having sex with married man) and not the sex out of wedlock. So so far , Jesus , God incarnated ( if you are a catholic, I dont) has not spoken a word about homosexuality , a subject that nonetheless seem to be disturbing to a lot of christians.

And , If I am not mistaken , Jesus said something like "Give to Cesar what belongs to Cesar" in response to some jewish people who wante to go to war with the roman, meaning ( if I remember well from my catholic classes of 30 yeras ago) that there is the law of politician , and the law of "the spirit". Wich make me think that Jesus would have said in regard to same-sex marriage , that it is none of the religion business , if it is the governement that makes those contracts.

Your missing the point that most christians believe the bible to be Gods words that he inspired men to write. If he inspired men to write it then I believe it is Gods words and correct (people will argue translation has tarnished but I believe that some of the translations was inspired also). I also believe God and Jesus to be the same divine being in two different forms. So in fact anything inspired text by God is in fact coming from Jesus.

Thats the way I see it at least!