Cash availability but no DVC availability

[squirk]

At the end of the day, DVC isn't a "club." It is a timeshare. It is operated like a timeshare. It is managed for occupancy and cashflow.

Sure. That wasn't in doubt. But this brings us full-circle to my earlier question of whether or not DVC gives itself a "home-field advantage" over members when it gets points back. If everything we've discussed in the last ten posts or so is accurate, the answer indeed appears to be "yes".

I listen to a lot of WDW trip planning podcasts. Several hosts who own DVC have separately commented that they have fallen out of love with DVC due to the limited availability of desired rooms and locations. Pam Forrester at BOGP and Mike Newell at (classic) WDW Today are two who come to mind, and they have each sold off at least one of their contracts. These are WDW lovers and longtime DVC owners who know how to "play the game" and they still had trouble getting what they want.

I know "WDW podcast hosts who own DVC" is a very small sample size, but I wonder if availability is a point of contention with DVC members as a whole. If so, I wonder if DVC's strategy in how it sells off traded/returned points (what we've been discussing these last three pages) is the main factor, or if other issues are controlling.

 

[tjkraz]

I guess that's where I was going originally. Given this leeway and lack of transparency, does DVC have the ability to use/sell returned points in ways and for dates that are not available to members?

Functional ability? Yes. They administer the program.

Legal ability? I would be very surprised if DVC Management, legal counsel, external auditors and the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares and Mobile Homes all endorsed trade policies which allowed DVC to put its own profits ahead of the good will of its members. It strikes me as a violation of DVC's fidicuiary responsibility to owners if they're taking tens-of-thousands of SSR and OKW points in trade, and converting them to cash rooms at Beach Club, Grand Floridian and other more popular destinations.

There are a lot of hypotheticals being tossed about. Guess it comes down to what you're willing to believe. If you want to take comments from two podcasters to conclude that Disney is manipulating the exchange programs for its own good, I guess that's your call. Speaking as someone who is approaching 14 years of ownership, IMO the main factors which have impacted availability are 1) DVC's failure to adjust the point charts to compensate for changes in seasonal demand, 2) the rise in popularity of renting and selling unneeded points, which has resulted in far fewer points that expire unused, and 3) members simply booking earlier than ever before.

I just looked at a half-dozen different weeks on the WDW hotel booking site. Every search showed availability at SSR, OKW, AKV and others. It's impossible for me to buy into any conspiracy theories when Disney is offering rooms to cash guests at those properties.

 

[squirk]

There are a lot of hypotheticals being tossed about. Guess it comes down to what you're willing to believe. If you want to take comments from two podcasters to conclude that Disney is manipulating the exchange programs for its own good, I guess that's your call.

I admitted that the two podcasters I mentioned were a very small, and thus poor, sample. I also indicated that their comments were simply what got me thinking about all this in the first place. Finally, I questioned if their experiences were really representative of the member base as a whole. So, no, I'm not running with their comments to conclude anything. No need to imply I'm an idiot.

Legal ability? I would be very surprised if DVC Management, legal counsel, external auditors and the Division of Florida Condominiums, Timeshares and Mobile Homes all endorsed trade policies which allowed DVC to put its own profits ahead of the good will of its members.

I never said anything about all those entities endorsing anything. Nonetheless, I'd be very surprised if DVD/DVC didn't leverage such an advantage if doing so was legally sound and in compliance with all applicable statutes and regulations.

Also, you find it incredulous that a part of the Disney conglomerate would put profit ahead of good will?

I am in my eighth year of ownership and have been very happy with DVC. But I would not be surprised if they, like any other company in their position, didn't find little ways to stack the deck in their favor. In fact, that's a general principle of contract law - the party drafting the agreement has an inherent bias to include language that gives them some sort of advantage over the other party.

 

[Dean]

I am in my eighth year of ownership and have been very happy with DVC. But I would not be surprised if they, like any other company in their position, didn't find little ways to stack the deck in their favor. In fact, that's a general principle of contract law - the party drafting the agreement has an inherent bias to include language that gives them some sort of advantage over the other party.

Just by nature of being more educated, the DVC members here are going to get ahead of many other owners in reservations, etc; certainly DVC/DVD will have an advantage by the very nature of their internal knowledge. The issue is whether they step over that line and function in a way others couldn't. I'm confident they don't, you can tell I'm confident because I'm a member, but how would we truly know? We wouldn't.

 

[disneynutz]

Disney keeps people in the dark as far as their internal workings but they know what to do and how to do it to increase their income. They know what they are allowed to do legally and when they can move points to make the most money just like they know when to air commercials and offer room discounts or Florida rates. They have it down to a science, nothing happens by chance, it happens by design.

Bill

 

[squirk]

Just by nature of being more educated, the DVC members here are going to get ahead of many other owners in reservations, etc; certainly DVC/DVD will have an advantage by the very nature of their internal knowledge. The issue is whether they step over that line and function in a way others couldn't. I'm confident they don't, you can tell I'm confident because I'm a member, but how would we truly know? We wouldn't.

Disney keeps people in the dark as far as their internal workings but they know what to do and how to do it to increase their income. They know what they are allowed to do legally and when they can move points to make the most money just like they know when to air commercials and offer room discounts or Florida rates. They have it down to a science, nothing happens by chance, it happens by design.

Bill

Quite so. It's not just Disney. I'd expect any company similarly situated to do the same.

As to whether they "cross lines", I am sure they abide by the four corners of the contract. But then again, they were the ones who drafted the contract in the first place.

 

[Dean]

Quite so. It's not just Disney. I'd expect any company similarly situated to do the same.

As to whether they "cross lines", I am sure they abide by the four corners of the contract. But then again, they were the ones who drafted the contract in the first place.

And drawing off rooms for cash or other reasons is not only within the contract, it's expected for those who understand how the system is set up.

 

[crisi]

Its to the members best interests that the rooms turned over are not all "low demand" rooms. The reason its expensive to use the Disney Collection options on points - the cruise line, ABD, is that CRO isn't going to turn over all those rooms for cash - some will sit empty. They need to get the cash to pay for your cruise/ABD, Disneyland Paris stay - so they need to factor in the occupancy rate. Lots of rooms at SSR in September that don't sell simply make the booking rate go down, and the cost of the non-DVC options on points go up.

Around here, we are generally pretty convinced that it isn't a good deal to cruise or do ABD on points, but members do want and use those options, and they are sold with the program, so Disney has some fiduciary responsibility to its members to keep them from being completely out of balance.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Not sure if it's the same now, but at one point cash guests could book even earlier than the 11 months.
No clue how the system works anymore, but that's the way it was by the POS.

MG

 

[CarolMN]

Not sure if it's the same now, but at one point cash guests could book even earlier than the 11 months.
No clue how the system works anymore, but that's the way it was by the POS.

MG

As I recall, that was only during a resort's sales period - when DVD still owned a large portion of the resort. I do not believe that was ever the case for DVC points inventory. In fact, most cash reservations from DVC inventory weren't available until several months after the 11 month window opened. Number of those was based on some type of "prediction" on number of rooms that wouldn't be booked by members for points.

DVD usually does not declare points into the condominium too far ahead of projected sales. Until the points are declared, the Developer owns the points / unsold portion of the resort and can offer reservations for cash. Revenue from that flows to their bottom line.

 

[squirk]

For those playing along at home, my OKW waitlist was matched today. @DisneyNutMary & @ElizabethCB - I hope yours come through!

 

[DisneyNutMary]

For those playing along at home, my OKW waitlist was matched today. @DisneyNutMary & @ElizabethCB - I hope yours come through!

Congratulations! there's still hope for me, lol
I'm still waiting. I have my back-up cash reservation so either way I have a place to sleep.

 

[squirk]

Congratulations! there's still lol hope
I'm still waiting. I have my back-up cash reservation so either way I have a place to sleep.

FWIW, I logged into the member site today for an unrelated reason, pulled up my dashboard, and saw that the OKW waitlist was not listed. I didn't see a confirmed booking, and I had not received any emails, either, so I called MS. Apparently, they found a match at OKW but had not confirmed it yet. The CM confirmed for me while we were on the phone.

Maybe you already knew this, but it was news to me - if you see a waitlist disappear on your dashboard, that might be a good sign.

 

[CarolMN]

.......(snip).........Maybe you already knew this, but it was news to me - if you see a waitlist disappear on your dashboard, that might be a good sign.

In my experience, it's as close to 100% as one can get with DVC/Disney. The waitlist on the dashboard disappears when the software finds a match. But it takes a human being to actually make the reservation and finish up the process. (That's probably what the CM meant and was doing while you were on the call). If there are a lot of matches or if the phones are busy, it can take a couple of days for the CMs to get to working on the waitlist matches.

Glad to hear your waitlist worked.

 

[squirk]

In my experience, it's as close to 100% as one can get with DVC/Disney. The waitlist on the dashboard disappears when the software finds a match. But it takes a human being to actually make the reservation and finish up the process. (That's probably what the CM meant and was doing while you were on the call). If there are a lot of matches or if the phones are busy, it can take a couple of days for the CMs to get to working on the waitlist matches.

Glad to hear your waitlist worked.

Thanks. Yes, that is exactly how they explained it to me. Software found a match, but a CM had to go out and actually book it to seal the deal.

Strangely enough, though, the OKW waitlist was still listed as "active" on the legacy "Waitlist Manager" page. I originally thought it was a glitch and the system had accidentally "eaten" my OKW waitlist, which is why I called in. Very pleased to find out it was a different situation entirely.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

As I recall, that was only during a resort's sales period - when DVD still owned a large portion of the resort. I do not believe that was ever the case for DVC points inventory. In fact, most cash reservations from DVC inventory weren't available until several months after the 11 month window opened. Number of those was based on some type of "prediction" on number of rooms that wouldn't be booked by members for points.

DVD usually does not declare points into the condominium too far ahead of projected sales. Until the points are declared, the Developer owns the points / unsold portion of the resort and can offer reservations for cash. Revenue from that flows to their bottom line.

Carol, I sort of remember a cash ressie was able to book 11 months from check in, when at the time DVC was 11 months from check out. That advantage of course has disappeared since the DVC booking change some years ago.

As always, I could be wrong..!!

MG

 

[Lurch]

You should have booked your night months ago instead of waiting until one month out. Your dates are pretty close to spring break times. You needed to book that night long ago.

It's kind of funny that you posted this on another board on Saturday:


And posted this in the post above:

Wow! A little creepy don't you think? Stalker much?

 

[squirk]

Wow! A little creepy don't you think? Stalker much?

Not to necro, but

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Yes, I understand that there is a balancing act to be done here. And I am not crying "foul", in that I am sure if I look closely at my contract, all this is spelled out.

I have no idea why either of these desired villas went to cash. It could've been a default, it could've been that they didn't feel they would be able to rent them out on points, it could've been a cruise or concierge exchange. Regardless of the reason, the fact remains that the rooms are still sitting there unbooked.

Again, my question is a genuine and honest one, because there might be a larger or different perspective that I'm failing to see: does DVD/DVC "play favorites" with their own points? Do they give themselves preferential treatment by curtailing my use of my points so that they can monetize their own?

Knowing the answer will a.) scratch my itch and sate my curiosity; and b.) reinforce the idea of booking as early as possible, even at the less popular properties, because it seems that I am not only competing with other DVC members for availability, I am sometimes competing with DVC itself.

Haven't read all of it, but try to remember that DVC is an owner of points. Some of the rooms you see there are the one's they own. It'd be like me using my points to book a room and then advertising it for rent to someone else. It would be sitting there unavailable to you to book with points because I booked it first, regardless if I have someone staying in it yet. It works the same way with those trading out. They are booking a room with their points and then giving that room to Disney to rent for them so the cash they get for the room pays for the trade option. In both cases, those rooms, although you can see them, really have been "booked" with points in some way.

The only rooms that would be eligible, as already mentioned, are those classified as "breakage" and if that is the case, they should be able to be pulled back. The hard part is that we don't know what rooms are which. Don't give up though. Last year, when my daughter was visiting some of her friends in Disney, they had an issue with their air conditioner in their apartment. I looked online for the night and nothing was there. When I called, they had several options for the night for a studio. So, it can happen, even up to the last minute! Good luck!!!

 

[squirk]

Haven't read all of it, but try to remember that DVC is an owner of points. Some of the rooms you see there are the one's they own. It'd be like me using my points to book a room and then advertising it for rent to someone else. It would be sitting there unavailable to you to book with points because I booked it first, regardless if I have someone staying in it yet. It works the same way with those trading out. They are booking a room with their points and then giving that room to Disney to rent for them so the cash they get for the room pays for the trade option. In both cases, those rooms, although you can see them, really have been "booked" with points in some way.

The only rooms that would be eligible, as already mentioned, are those classified as "breakage" and if that is the case, they should be able to be pulled back. The hard part is that we don't know what rooms are which. Don't give up though. Last year, when my daughter was visiting some of her friends in Disney, they had an issue with their air conditioner in their apartment. I looked online for the night and nothing was there. When I called, they had several options for the night for a studio. So, it can happen, even up to the last minute! Good luck!!!

Thanks for the reply. Yes, if you look several posts up, I lucked out and got a match for an OKW 2-bedroom.

I understand the process a lot better since I made my original post, which was my intention all along. I still have questions on how and when DVC/DVD trades in the points to CRO, but whatever. If that's the most important thing occupying my attention, I'll call that a pretty good day.