Cancelled Reservation

[dianeschlicht]

Let us know when/if you get the refund. I hope it comes through but I am still skeptical.

I'm with Dean on this one. I'll believe it when you see the money.

 

[disney ny]

This whole thread just makes me so mad! I can not beleive that anyone would do this to another person who had paid them money. Regardless of intent etc. (and I for one do not beleive that this is not someone trying to take money with the intent of wronging them) the whole situation has been handled unprofessionally. There is NO excuse that would work for me at this point. No matter what the crisis etc. the renter has an obligation to get this taken care of immediately. If that really was the case and there was no malice intended here then the renter would have called her personally, reassured her and taken care of the refund immediately. If some big misunderstanding like this happened and I was responsible then I would call and call and call until I could personally explain the situation, refund the money etc. Rachel you were SO much more patient then I ever would have been- after the first unanswered email I would have flipped my lid and called multiple times everyday and filed a claim. I truly hope you get the refund but am very doubtful.Hopefully somehow paypal can get you back your money. People like this give everyone else a bad name. Let us know how this all ends and make sure you still take your trip. Life is too short to let something like this end a beautiful planned trip. And here is my angry face for that awful renter!!! I hope they DO read this board and feel ashamed (but I doubt people like that feel shame either)

 

[PoohNFriends]

OP - glad to hear things are hopefully heading in the right direction. Sending more Disney magic your way that you do get your refund and can find a comprable reservation either thru another member or CRO

We even met a couple last month who have been owners since OKW opened and they didn't know what banking and borrowing was.

Stuff like this baffles me. It takes a good chunk of money and time to be a member - why would one not even know the basics? I

 

[Cmbar]

To OP: I so hope you get a refund and will once again allow a rental transaction to take place in your future. I really, really hope this was just a really bad rentor.

To JimMIA: Thanks for the information on criminal intent. I totally understand the law aspect of the thresholds for determining a fraud vs a bad business deal. Come from a long line of law enforcement officers so I think I tend to be more suspicious. Plus I have seen and been part of determining fraud at a much higher level being an accountant. IT IRKS me when people aren't more suspicious and are openly trustworthly without caution. (Not the OP since there were not indicators prior to the rental)

Our PTA treasurer stole hundred of thousands of dollars from multiple PTA's, boy scouts and children non-profits simply because people trusted her and ignored the simple warning signs. I was livid when I can see that simple indicators such as delayed paid bills, bank statements sent to her home instead of the organizations, over the top purchases such as inground pools, vacation homes were purchased and nobody acted on a slight suspicion because there wasn't enough reason to doubt her and we didn't want to hurt her feelings or be too suspicious. (We did get her and she is in Federal prision)

So yes I would be more suspicious because this transaction did not go as planned, cancelled and lack of return phone calls/emails indicates a avoidance of something. I am hoping this is resloved, but in my experience people jumping to the suspicious is better than saying "we didn't know".

To Scrappy Tink: Thanks for the information. Unfortunately I am all too aware of how an investigation should go.

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

You might want to rethink this example of intent. I'm sure you didn't mean to say there is such a thing as unintentional rape. The fact that a crime is unreported has nothing to do with the intent of the criminal. Rape is like armed robbery - the intent is quite obvious.

You're right, I didn't say mean to say there is such a thing as unintentional rape, which is why I didnt say that. That was an example of no evidence, not intent. Which is why I started the paragraph that there isn't always evidence or criminal intent. And I specifically mentioned evidence being destoyed. Nowhere in the sentence was the word intent mentioned.

Actually, I think if you go back and read my response, you'll see that I quoted classic indicators of criminal intent in fraud cases (course of conduct, concealment, deceipt, multiple victims, etc.). There are many others, but I didn't want to get into a tedious discussion of fraud investigation.

I did read them, over & over, but I still haven't read what you'd consider EVIDENCE Not indicators. Someone calls about a potential fraud...all the indicators you menioned have occurred....what do you gather as evidence to prove or disprove the alligation? CMBAR's question was about evidence. Tho I have a feeling now it was just a rhetorical question, because he already knew the answer.

 

[Scrappy_Tink]

To Scrappy Tink: Thanks for the information. Unfortunately I am all too aware of how an investigation should go.

You're welcome CMBAR, I didn't realize you already knew the ins & outs!

To JimMIA: Thanks for the information on criminal intent. I totally understand the law aspect of the thresholds for determining a fraud vs a bad business deal. Come from a long line of law enforcement officers so I think I tend to be more suspicious. Plus I have seen and been part of determining fraud at a much higher level being an accountant. IT IRKS me when people aren't more suspicious and are openly trustworthly without caution. (Not the OP since there were not indicators prior to the rental)

I'm with you there! It's sad in a way that I've lost so much trust in human-kind. I told a kid selling magazines door-to-door the other day that I would buy from him the next day after I checked out the business on BBB. Come to find out this business basically used teens...they'd send them by bus to far-away cities and if they don't sell x amount of magazines they wouldn't bring them home. They weren't paying what they were told them they'd be paid, and were using the proceeds to run a drug operation. It was really sad everything I found about them. There are some really sucky people out there!

 

[bytheblood]

Rachel, I am sitting on the edge of my seat.

 

[rachel_a18]

Rachel, I am sitting on the edge of my seat.

Me too! I sent her an email the same day, asking for some idea of when I should expect the money... and of course, no response. Tuesday will make one week. But I'll continue to give her the benefit of the doubt and let the Paypal case stay open.

 

[ibela]

Me too! I sent her an email the same day, asking for some idea of when I should expect the money... and of course, no response. Tuesday will make one week. But I'll continue to give her the benefit of the doubt and let the Paypal case stay open.

Being that she should be able to refund you directly through PayPal, it's not a good sign. Good thing you kept the case open, hopefully it still works out.

 

[bytheblood]

Rachel, maybe you need to email her every day and let her know that you will be disputing this with paypal until your funds are returned to you. Ask her to please give you an ETA as you need these funds back to plan another vacation.

 

[abs730]

I have rented points the last two years and was just looking at renting today since we can't decide to buy DVC without seeing other resorts. Have only stayed at Beach Club. But now I am really scared! I have read the thread regarding red flags/precautions but it sounds like this deal was rather smooth until after the reservation was made. Really unsure about renting points for this year.

 

[disneynutz]

I have rented points the last two years and was just looking at renting today since we can't decide to buy DVC without seeing other resorts. Have only stayed at Beach Club. But now I am really scared! I have read the thread regarding red flags/precautions but it sounds like this deal was rather smooth until after the reservation was made. Really unsure about renting points for this year.

Rent from someone with a high DIS post count.

Rent from someone who has rented several times and who has verifiable references.

Talk to them on the phone and ask them questions.

Don't look for the cheapest deal, you get what you pay for.

Review their written rental agreement. If they don't have one walk away.

Bill

 

[LisaS]

Rent from someone with a high DIS post count.

Rent from someone who has rented several times and who has verifiable references.

Talk to them on the phone and ask them questions.

Don't look for the cheapest deal, you get what you pay for.

Review their written rental agreement. If they don't have one walk away.

Bill

I would add to this list to search for the owner on the Orange County comptrollers website, assuming the owner you are dealing with owns a WDW DVC resort. If they are behind on their dues or mortgage payments, Disney will file a lien against them and it will be recorded on that site. I would avoid renting from anyone who is in that situation because if Disney takes back their contract, your reservation will be cancelled.

 

[disneynutz]

I would add to this list to search for the owner on the Orange County comptrollers website, assuming the owner you are dealing with owns a WDW DVC resort. If they are behind on their dues or mortgage payments, Disney will file a lien against them and it will be recorded on that site. I would avoid renting from anyone who is in that situation because if Disney takes back their contract, your reservation will be cancelled.

If the member isn't current with DVC, they can't make a reservation so the renter will not receive the confirmation or be able to verify the reservation on the Disney website. County fillings can take a while to be recorded and IMHO isn't the best way to verify if a owner is current.

Bill

 

[LisaS]

If the member isn't current with DVC, they can't make a reservation so the renter will not receive the confirmation or be able to verify the reservation on the Disney website. County fillings can take a while to be recorded and IMHO isn't the best way to verify if a owner is current.

Bill

You are correct that it will only be helpful in the case where the owner is already in trouble, hoping to rent his/her points and turn the proceeds over to Disney to bring their account up to date so that they can then make the reservation and save their contract from foreclosure. I doubt (hope!) there are many owners in that situation but I would prefer not to rent from someone who is.

 

[JimMIA]

If the member isn't current with DVC, they can't make a reservation so the renter will not receive the confirmation or be able to verify the reservation on the Disney website. County fillings can take a while to be recorded and IMHO isn't the best way to verify if a owner is current.

Bill

I agree with Bill that public records are not a very accurate method of determining the status of an account. First of all, delays of 3-4 months in entering data are common. I strongly suspect Disney would have frozen an account long before they file a lein, so that is not likely to be a current indicator.

Second, whenever you are researching public records, you can't just look at the listing of the event. You have to look at tha actual documents to be sure a) they actually pertain to the account you are interested in, and b) that they have some relevance to your situation. The Orange County site allows you to view the actual document.

Third, public records are only as good as the minimum-wage temp who enters the data. They are notoriously inaccurate, which is why it is so important to actually view the documents, not just the listing.

About the only thing I would use the Orange County site for is to determine whether a person renting points is, in fact, the owner of the account. I am not a person who has a lot of absolute suggestions for prospective renters (I personally think the post-count thing is WAY overdone), but renting only from the actual owner is one absolute requirement, IMHO.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Me too! I sent her an email the same day, asking for some idea of when I should expect the money... and of course, no response. Tuesday will make one week. But I'll continue to give her the benefit of the doubt and let the Paypal case stay open.

I think I'd make my next communication a little stronger. Maybe offer some suggestions as to how she can facilitate the transfer back of funds through Paypal first. Then if it's not done by the next day, tell her you will be speaking with your attorney. That usually will at least get them off the dime and at least communicate again.

 

[crisi]

I agree with Bill that public records are not a very accurate method of determining the status of an account. First of all, delays of 3-4 months in entering data are common. I strongly suspect Disney would have frozen an account long before they file a lein, so that is not likely to be a current indicator.

Second, whenever you are researching public records, you can't just look at the listing of the event. You have to look at tha actual documents to be sure a) they actually pertain to the account you are interested in, and b) that they have some relevance to your situation. The Orange County site allows you to view the actual document.

Third, public records are only as good as the minimum-wage temp who enters the data. They are notoriously inaccurate, which is why it is so important to actually view the documents, not just the listing.

About the only thing I would use the Orange County site for is to determine whether a person renting points is, in fact, the owner of the account. I am not a person who has a lot of absolute suggestions for prospective renters (I personally think the post-count thing is WAY overdone), but renting only from the actual owner is one absolute requirement, IMHO.

And even that isn't 100%. My husband appears on the Orange County site, for some reason, I do not (I am on the deed, but I don't show up in a search). We have different last names. If we ever rented our points, I'd very likely be the one handling the transaction.

 

[LisaS]

I agree with Bill that public records are not a very accurate method of determining the status of an account. First of all, delays of 3-4 months in entering data are common. I strongly suspect Disney would have frozen an account long before they file a lein, so that is not likely to be a current indicator.

I agree that the lack of negative information does not guarantee an owner's account is current. However if I was a renter and a search of the records revealed that the owner I was working with had a history of liens going back a couple of years (suggesting ongoing financial problems) I would choose to do business with a different owner.

It's just one of several things I would do before choosing someone with whom to do business including checking references and reviewing posts on the DVC boards. I would want to do business with an experienced owner so I would check to see if they answer questions here or just ask them. I would prefer to deal with someone who is an active participant here because they would be more likely to be around if I needed to contact them at a later date, to sign up for DME for example. Fortunately there have been very few problems on the R/T board but there have been renters who became nervous when the owner they rented from never answered their email or returned their calls once the deal was done. When they arrived at WDW, their reservation was there and everything was OK but they were sweating it out for weeks wondering if they had been scammed. I would try to avoid that by going with an owner who was a regular here, figuring there was a better chance of getting emails/PMs answered because the owner was a regular poster here on the DIS.

 

[JimMIA]

Certainly if I were checking someone's DVC ownership and I found a lein or series of leins, that would be a red flag.

But if I were concerned about someone's financial stability, I think a public records search in their hometown records might be much more fruitful than a hit-or-miss look at their DVC ownership. They could have paid their DVC annual dues every January for ten years, lost their job or suffered some other financial setback in February and be on the verge of bankruptcy by the summer.

The bottom line for prospective renters is there is risk involved, and there is no silver bullet which will guarantee success. In many cases you are entering into a business transaction many months in advance, with someone you essentially don't know. Fraud is almost never the problem in problematic DVC rentals -- the problems usually arise when something unexpected happens (a change in the vacationer's plans, financial difficulties for either party, etc.). And many things can change in eleven months, even to the most solid of DVC (or DIS) citizens.

If a prospective renter is not comfortable with that level of risk, they are probably better off calling Disney CRO and booking through them.