Can we talk about how bad FastPass+ is?

[kay1864]

I did. You have provided zero evidence other than to pick apart Disney's wording of their statement about long range readers.

We must not be talking about the same post. Please show me where in this post (1:17 ET) I am "picking apart" Disney's wording, and that there is zero evidence in that post other than the "picking apart".

 

[OtherScott]

I did. You have provided zero evidence other than to pick apart Disney's wording of their statement about long range readers.

Here's his argument.

Disney doesn't have, at present (use font color for effect), long-range RFID readers.

Disney has long-range RFID readers - they just use these readers to scan an area for MagicBands to collect data so they can populate PhotoPass accounts.

There is no evidence they use the data collected by these long-range RFID readers for anything other than populating these accounts.

There are no other long-range RFID readers throughout the park that would be needed to collect location data

My support for this proposition is that I said the same thing yesterday. Here's my link.

 

[AmyB2006]

We must not be talking about the same post. Please show me where in this post (1:17 ET) I am "picking apart" Disney's wording, and that there is zero evidence in that post other than the "picking apart".

Please show me in that post where your evidence is to back up your statements that there are no other LR readers in the parks other than at rides for photos.

I don't see any. I see your statements and your opinions.

 

[kay1864]

Please show me in that post where your evidence is to back up your statements that there are no other LR readers in the parks other than at rides for photos.

Um no, it was your claim that all I was doing was picking apart Disney's statements. It's up to you to back it up, not for me to disprove your claim.

 

[Shaden]

The big difference for me was not having to run back and forth across a huge park numerous times. When we went in April I had achilles tendonitis so the FP+ saved my life. It was a relief to know what time I needed to be at my favorite ride ahead of time. Also elimininated conflicts with ADR's. Having a schedule made it much more relaxing and leisurely for us rather than stressful.
And that was when you only got 3 per day. Period.

How are the extra ones working out for people? Do you basically start from scratch with no restrictions?

I just don't understand this rationale ... we never ran across the parks, we just wandered around, pull FP-s where we saw them, if there was a convenient return time, etc.

Ironically, now if you want to use more beyond the 3, you do in fact have to run around the parks. The only place you can book them is at a kiosk. On top of that, you often have to stand in line to book your additional FP+.

Standing in line to skip standing in line.

The additional ones, yes, you basically start from scratch, but remember only pulling one at a time, not 3 again.

Availability is all over the map, it depends highly on when you are there, what crowds and weather are like. Headliners clearly much harder to get later in the day, but it does happen for some people and at some times of year.

We had pretty solid success with this in May, but found there to be less FP+ available for headliners than there were FP-.

People always bring up the "we were never able to grab FPs for XXXX attraction if we didn't RD" .... that was never our experience, though I imagine it might be in the busier times of year. On previous trips we were able to grab FPs for just about any attraction just about any time of the day with a decent return time ...

 

[OtherScott]

Oh OK. So your assertion is that therefore there must be widespread use of LR sensors in the parks? And based on the above, LR sensors must exist beyond the current known use of MM ride photos?

Not sure at this point what you're actually asserting, so I'm trying to clarify.

I didn't say the must be, and I didn't say "widespread."

I said that logic dictates that they are using the long range readers to capture (I think I've lazily used "collect" in the past) and transmit data for gauging the condition of the park and for building behavioral models.

They designed them, they developed them, they built them, they patented them along with a system to collect and process all of the captured data, they registered them with the FCC, and they've spent $1.8 billion on the project that includes them.

But most importantly, you've acknowledged they're (did I get that right?) in the parks. You just think they're only using the captured data to send you pictures of yourself.

A long-range reader is a long range reader. Period. It doesn't process data. It captures it only as a means to transmit it to where it will be processed. It doesn't "care" if the data is used to populate a PhotoPass account or crowd level prediction account. Disney doesn't need a reader to capture "presence within the zone" data for PhotoPass and a separate reader to capture mere "presence within the zone" for behavior modelling.

The data is captured once, then analyzed many different ways with many different goals. Only one analysis is to used get you to buy pictures.

We're in agreement that they're present.

You've seen no evidence that Disney is using the data for other purposes. My answer is, "You won't." It's not your data, it's not for your use.

You also seem to think that long-range readers need to be more prevalent than I do. Disney gets a ton of information from you actively interacting with them - from voluntary touch point activity, internet activity (scheduling FPs and ADRs).

It needs very little passive interaction from each guest. Where aggregation is needed, it aggregates. Where individualization is needed, it segregation takes place.

In short (after many words), the hardware you acknowledge is present in the parks is probably sufficient to capture what is needed.

 

[AmyB2006]

Um no, it was your claim that all I was doing was picking apart Disney's statements. It's up to you to back it up, not for me to disprove your claim.

Evidence. You have not provided any evidence to back up your claims at all.

Well for one thing they're covering themselves for any future LR sensors they may add--which (as I've said several times) they may still do. That way they don't have to rewrite their policy. Policies are generally written broadly. Doesn't mean that the policy says "our LR sensors are everywhere".

Your opinion based off of your interpretation of Disney statements.

Why would they wait for "the future" to use them? Once they are in place, I fully expect Disney to use the sensors and the data. Just as they started using the Mickey scanners which replaced the turnstiles.

Your opinion. Where is your evidence that they are not in place already?

As I've said, it would be all over the DIS boards if they were

It was. Maybe you missed it.

You really think this wouldn't be known by a few CMs?

I'm sure it would be known by a lot of CMs. You never answered that question either. Are you a CM? That's at least the second time I've asked, maybe the third.

Yes, it is my claim that you have no evidence, because you haven't presented any to dispute Disney's statement that LR readers are in place.

 

[Cyrano]

Folks this is final warning. Some folks need to stop taking this personal and walk away from the thread .

Continuation of these 1 on 1 diatribes from either side will see posts removed and the thread/topic locked.

 

[jade1]

I just don't understand this rationale ... we never ran across the parks, we just wandered around, pull FP-s where we saw them, if there was a convenient return time, etc.

Ironically, now if you want to use more beyond the 3, you do in fact have to run around the parks. The only place you can book them is at a kiosk. On top of that, you often have to stand in line to book your additional FP+.

Standing in line to skip standing in line.

The additional ones, yes, you basically start from scratch, but remember only pulling one at a time, not 3 again.

Availability is all over the map, it depends highly on when you are there, what crowds and weather are like. Headliners clearly much harder to get later in the day, but it does happen for some people and at some times of year.

We had pretty solid success with this in May, but found there to be less FP+ available for headliners than there were FP-.

People always bring up the "we were never able to grab FPs for XXXX attraction if we didn't RD" .... that was never our experience, though I imagine it might be in the busier times of year. On previous trips we were able to grab FPs for just about any attraction just about any time of the day with a decent return time ...

You can blame me for all of this.

I started a thread 12 years ago (2 years before the WDW patent) complaining about walking across EPCOT from SAB just to get TT FP's before they were gone by noon as usual. Furthermore not knowing if there were even any left-much less if they would be available when we got there, and even then they would be for 8PM to 9PM.

And yes it was either XMAS week or Easter/S Break week.

The same was happening with Soarin/TSSM/TOT/RNR and the MK Mountains.

It just seemed soo stupid to have "screens" displaying the information at the rides-but nowhere else, and making you enter the park and walk over there.

Granted I said just put it in your hotel room TV (onsite perk) but pretty much the same thing-never mentioned how many and how soon you could do it.

But I will say the new system is a huge improvement for the way we tour-way better than FP- was, and better than my original proposal.

 

[AmyB2006]

I didn't say the must be, and I didn't say "widespread."

I said that logic dictates that they are using the long range readers to capture (I think I've lazily used "collect" in the past) and transmit data for gauging the condition of the park and for building behavioral models.

They designed them, they developed them, they built them, they patented them along with a system to collect and process all of the captured data, they registered them with the FCC, and they've spent $1.8 billion on the project that includes them.

But most importantly, you've acknowledged they're (did I get that right?) in the parks. You just think they're only using the captured data to send you pictures of yourself.

A long-range reader is a long range reader. Period. It doesn't process data. It captures it only as a means to transmit it to where it will be processed. It doesn't "care" if the data is used to populate a PhotoPass account or crowd level prediction account. Disney doesn't need a reader to capture "presence within the zone" data for PhotoPass and a separate reader to capture mere "presence within the zone" for behavior modelling.

The data is captured once, then analyzed many different ways with many different goals. Only one analysis is to used get you to buy pictures.

We're in agreement that they're present.

You've seen no evidence that Disney is using the data for other purposes. My answer is, "You won't." It's not your data, it's not for your use.

You also seem to think that long-range readers need to be more prevalent than I do. Disney gets a ton of information from you actively interacting with them - from voluntary touch point activity, internet activity (scheduling FPs and ADRs).

It needs very little passive interaction from each guest. Where aggregation is needed, it aggregates. Where individualization is needed, it segregation takes place.

In short (after many words), the hardware you acknowledge is present in the parks is probably sufficient to capture what is needed.

Actually, he said they're only present AT rides for photos. According to him, they are not present throughout the parks in other locations.

 

[AmyB2006]

Folks this is final warning. Some folks need to stop taking this personal and walk away from the thread .

Continuation of these 1 on 1 diatribes from either side will see posts removed and the thread/topic locked.

I will walk away. My feet are tired of dancing anyway.

By the way, I'm not taking anything personal. Just wish questions would be answered, straightforward.

 

[ncdj2013]

I just don't understand this rationale ... we never ran across the parks, we just wandered around, pull FP-s where we saw them, if there was a convenient return time, etc.

Ironically, now if you want to use more beyond the 3, you do in fact have to run around the parks. The only place you can book them is at a kiosk. On top of that, you often have to stand in line to book your additional FP+.

Standing in line to skip standing in line.

The additional ones, yes, you basically start from scratch, but remember only pulling one at a time, not 3 again.

Availability is all over the map, it depends highly on when you are there, what crowds and weather are like. Headliners clearly much harder to get later in the day, but it does happen for some people and at some times of year.

We had pretty solid success with this in May, but found there to be less FP+ available for headliners than there were FP-.

People always bring up the "we were never able to grab FPs for XXXX attraction if we didn't RD" .... that was never our experience, though I imagine it might be in the busier times of year. On previous trips we were able to grab FPs for just about any attraction just about any time of the day with a decent return time ...

well I didn't mean literally run but simply that it cut down on the total amount of walking needed. As stamina is an issue for me I need to be as efficient as possible to avoid a nasty crash.

Anyway thanks for the info on your experience with the additional FP. Trying to start planning the next trip.

 

[kay1864]

Numbered for clarity:

Originally Posted by kay1864
Oh OK. So your assertion is that therefore there must be widespread use of LR sensors in the parks? And based on the above, LR sensors must exist beyond the current known use of MM ride photos?

Not sure at this point what you're actually asserting, so I'm trying to clarify.

I didn't say the must be, and I didn't say "widespread."

Hence my use of question marks, since it wasn't clear what you are claiming.

1. You seem to be saying that they are definitely using LR sensors beyond the MM ride photos, do I have that right?

I said that logic dictates that they are using the long range readers to capture (I think I've lazily used "collect" in the past) and transmit data for gauging the condition of the park and for building behavioral models.

So "logic dictates" that there are presently more LR sensors than just the MM photo ones?

You keep saying the same thing over and over (Disney patent/statement etc), and I keep asking over and over...your only basis (for the other LR sensors) is Disney's statement/FCC filing/patent/etc.?

Because all of those only imply that Disney can use them, not that they are using them.

2. How do you conclude that those documents mean they are presently using them? (beyond the MM ride photos, that is)

They designed them, they developed them, they built them, they patented them along with a system to collect and process all of the captured data, they registered them with the FCC, and they've spent $1.8 billion on the project that includes them.

Earlier you were saying $1.8 million, now you're saying $1.8 billion.

3. Please clarify which one you mean, since they differ by a factor of 1,000.

But most importantly, you've acknowledged they're (did I get that right?) in the parks.

We agreed on that a long time ago.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Once you get to the point of grammatical corrections, it's generally time to let things go and move on.

That's pretty much what I was.thinking.

 

[Angel Ariel]

It is a well established fact that the mm+ initiative has cost over a billion dollars.

Disney has thr long range techhnology. They didn't spend the money on it to not use it for more than photos. They aren't.likely to make a major announcement when they start using it, so there really isn't any way for any of us to know. whether they are using it now or not. One thing is certain..they will be collecting and using as much data as they possibly can

 

[AmyB2006]

It is a well established fact that the mm+ initiative has cost over a billion dollars.

Disney has thr long range techhnology. They didn't spend the money on it to not use it for more than photos. They aren't.likely to make a major announcement when they start using it, so there really isn't any way for any of us to know. whether they are using it now or not. One thing is certain..they will be collecting and using as much data as they possibly can

One person seems to be pretty certain.

 

[OtherScott]

Numbered for clarity:

1. You seem to be saying that they are definitely using LR sensors beyond the MM ride photos, do I have that right?

Yes, and no. They are using LR readers to do the only things readers do - detect presence, capture data and transmit data.

Ride photos are a product of a completely different function done by a completely different thing - computers running software to analyze the captured and transmitted data, locally and centrally.

Disney is using its readers to read.

So "logic dictates" that there are presently more LR sensors than just the MM photo ones?

Not necessarily. The "MM photo ones" might provide a representative sample sufficient for their current needs and/or capability to analyze.

Logic does dictate that Disney is mining whatever data is captured by whatever readers they have deployed for more than "where do these photos go?" I base this on what they've said and what they've done.

You say they mine the data captured by "MM photo" readers only for PhotoPass information. I disagree.

You keep saying the same thing over and over (Disney patent/statement etc), and I keep asking over and over...your only basis (for the other LR sensors) is Disney's statement/FCC filing/patent/etc.?

The "etc" contains a pretty significant point: We agree that long range readers were produced and that they are reading in the parks. You just think the captured data is being used in a limited capacity and I think $1.8 billion indicates the same data is more valuable than ride picture sorting.

Because all of those only imply that Disney can use them, not that they are using them.

Yes, designing, patenting, registering with the FCC, building long range readers, while spending $1.8 billion on the NexGen system, only implies they can use them.

Actually deploying them, something we agree they have done, implies they are using them.

2. How do you conclude that those documents mean they are presently using them? (beyond the MM ride photos, that is)

I conclude they are using the captured data beyond MM ride photos by considering the design and stated intent of the NexGen system and the $1.8 billion spent to build it.

Earlier you were saying $1.8 million, now you're saying $1.8 billion.

3. Please clarify which one you mean, since they differ by a factor of 1,000.

Billion. But some estimate it north of $2 billion.

 

[kay1864]

Yes, and no. They are using LR readers to do the only things readers do - detect presence, capture data and transmit data.

That's waffling--I wasn't asking what they're used for.
Are you saying there are definitely LR sensors in the parks beyond the "MM ones", or not?

Originally Posted by kay1864
So "logic dictates" that there are presently more LR sensors than just the MM photo ones?

Not necessarily. The "MM photo ones" might provide a representative sample sufficient for their current needs and/or capability to analyze.

Oh. So now you're saying the MM photo LR sensors might be the only ones deployed in the parks at present?

Yes, designing, patenting, registering with the FCC, building long range readers, while spending $1.8 billion on the NexGen system, only implies they can use them.

Actually deploying them, something we agree they have done, implies they are using them.

We agree that only LR sensors are deployed (and used) at some rides.
Earlier you were saying that the "second part" of Disney's disclaimer means that there are definitely LR sensors elsewhere in the parks. Are you now backing off from that assertion?

I conclude they are using the captured data beyond MM ride photos by considering the design and stated intent of the NexGen system and the $1.8 billion spent to build it.

Something else we agree on!

 

[AmyB2006]

I conclude they are using the captured data beyond MM ride photos by considering the design and stated intent of the NexGen system and the $1.8 billion spent to build it.

Something else we agree on!

What???!!! LOL You've been stating all along that Disney is ONLY using the LR readers for photos on rides "at present". Now you agree that they're using it beyond that?

Do you even realize how you contradict yourself in almost every post?



This has been fun and all, but I actually have to go do some work now. Have fun peeps!

 

[Angel Ariel]

That's waffling--I wasn't asking what they're used for.
Are you saying there are definitely LR sensors in the parks beyond the "MM ones", or not?


Oh. So now you're saying the MM photo LR sensors might be the only ones deployed in the parks at present?

We agree that only LR sensors are deployed (and used) at some rides.
Earlier you were saying that the "second part" of Disney's disclaimer means that there are definitely LR sensors elsewhere in the parks. Are you now backing off from that assertion?

Something else we agree on!

Seriously, does it really matter if they are currently using them now? They have the ability to use them whenever they want. Whether they are installed or used now is immaterial. They will be using long range to collect data. They have said they will, they have spent over 1 billion dollars on the technology/system to be able to do so. I have absolutely no doubt that they will use the technology and system they paid for to get as much information as they can in the parks.

These long range sensors may not be installed and/or turned on today, but they could easily be tomorrow. And we'd never know. With all of the imagineering into rides, you don't think they could camouflage these LR readers? They may choose not to, but I have no doubt they have the ability to do so. This isn't something that's going to make headlines. Disney isn't going to announce to the world "hey, BTW, those long range RFID readers we talked about a long time ago? They're active now.". They're just going to start using them. Maybe people on the DIS will notice, maybe CMs will notice and report here...but there sure isn't going to be any kind of official notice from Disney on the matter.
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