Can we talk about how bad FastPass+ is?

[OtherScott]

That's waffling--I wasn't asking what they're used for.
Are you saying there are definitely LR sensors in the parks beyond the "MM ones", or not?


Oh. So now you're saying the MM photo LR sensors might be the only ones deployed in the parks at present?

We agree that only LR sensors are deployed (and used) at some rides.
Earlier you were saying that the "second part" of Disney's disclaimer means that there are definitely LR sensors elsewhere in the parks. Are you now backing off from that assertion?

Something else we agree on!

Your* arguing with yourself












* yes, I know its** you're









**yes, I know it's it's

 

[OtherScott]

I conclude they are using the captured data beyond MM ride photos by considering the design and stated intent of the NexGen system and the $1.8 billion spent to build it.

Something else we agree on!

That's an improvement.

First no readers
Then PhotoPass readers to sort ride photos
Now PhotoPass readers using data as intended by NexGen implementation

By Monday you'll be trying to convince me that Disney's has tracking solution that is absorbed through the skin

 

[kay1864]

Your* arguing with yourself

Um, no, it should be pretty clear I'm asking you questions.

1. Are you saying there are definitely LR sensors in the parks beyond the "MM ones", or not?

2. So now you're saying the MM photo LR sensors might be the only ones deployed in the parks at present?

3. Earlier you were saying that the "second part" of Disney's disclaimer means that there are definitely LR sensors elsewhere in the parks. Are you now backing off from that assertion?

 

[OtherScott]

Um, no, it should be pretty clear I'm asking you questions.

1. Are you saying there are definitely LR sensors in the parks beyond the "MM ones", or not?

No, I'm saying that Disney says there are long range readers located in the park. I get that you think that when Disney says MBs can be read by long range readers located in the parks that they don't necessarily mean that MBs are being read by long range scanners in the parks.

Yes, I suppose Disney could opt to not do the thing they spent $1.8 billion on trying to do

2. So now you're now saying the MM photo LR sensors might be the only ones deployed in the parks at present?

Might be. My main point is that whatever data is being captured by whatever readers, Disney is mining it on multiple levels.

3. Earlier you were saying that the "second part" of Disney's disclaimer means that there are definitely LR sensors elsewhere in the parks. Are you now backing off from that assertion?

You use words like "definitely" and "must" when others don't.

ADDED:

Disney's statement was not a disclaimer. It was answer to a FAQ:

"What is Radio Frequency (RF) technology and how is it used at Walt Disney World Resort?"

Kevin Yee breathlessly pointed this language out to readers of MiceChat back in December, and was roundly serenaded with "duh!" with pretty much the same reaction here.

Even if I can come close to coming around to your idea that "MBs can be read" means it's a mere possibility, "long-range readers located at Walt Disney World Resort" is unambiguous.

11 months ago Disney says they're using RF, long range readers are located in the parks and MBs can be read by them.

How this gets you to "at present" there are no readers other than ride photo readers is stupefying.

 

[Davey Jones II]

You are really overlooking the impacts of this system

There is a HUGE downside to going, and not using FP+ That didn't exist before FP+ was in place.

You are penalized if you don't use it, the SB lines for MANY rides have increased (an no, its not due to increased attendance).

Now, is it possible to go, and still have a good time, and not use FPs or not use the ones you booked ? Sure it is. But the value of your trip, by many metrics, has decreased. You are going to spend more time in line, and less time on rides.

CAN you still get a ton done under this system ? Does RD help ? Of course on both accounts. But in general its going to take either more planning, more effort/strategizing/stressing than it did before. Its going to take more out of you, and at the same time more money, to accomplish the same thing you did in the past, all things held equal.

Moreover the purpose of FP+ makes a principled stance against it more than understandable. Its not to make your or my trip better, its to make us spend more money. Whether that is locking us in to our trips further out, or whisking us through a few lines to spend more time in shops (and coincidentally probably stopping us from getting in other, now longer, lines) this is all about squeezing more money out of the visitor, instead of investing in the things that really would have improved our vacations.

I'm way behind in this thread; this post was on page 9. However, the bolded part is my opportunity to remind everyone of what many of us said at the very beginning: why (oh why) couldn't Disney have spent that huge pile of money on park infrastructure (refurbs, plussing, new attractions) instead??

Instead of complaints, there would be nothing but jubilation and breathless anticipation on these boards.

 

[Davey Jones II]

Under FP+, as well as many other decisions, I have seen an erosion in the value I'm getting for the money I'm spending. Sure, I may not be spending more, but I'm getting less. And I've never understood the argument that since Disney is a for profit business it's OK to give the customer less so management can make bigger bonuses.

Exactly. The "Disney is a business" line of argument is trotted out to justify any number of questionable moves by the company. If Walt were around today, he would be 100% focused on improving the guest experience, which is all he ever cared about. That -- and not cynical manipulation -- would be the best way to earn profits and ensure the long term health of the company.

"Quality is the best business plan" -- John Lasseter.

 

[maxiesmom]

Exactly. The "Disney is a business" line of argument is trotted out to justify any number of questionable moves by the company. If Walt were around today, he would be 100% focused on improving the guest experience, which is all he ever cared about. That -- and not cynical manipulation -- would be the best way to earn profits and ensure the long term health of the company.

"Quality is the best business plan" -- John Lasseter.

I really wish people wouldn't claim to know what a dead person would do. None of us know how Walt would have changed as he aged, or what changes to his business he would approve of, or call questionable.

What some posters look at as erosion some of us look at as a positive step. Not one of us knows for sure what Walt would think.

 

[OtherScott]

Exactly. The "Disney is a business" line of argument is trotted out to justify any number of questionable moves by the company. If Walt were around today, he would be 100% focused on improving the guest experience, which is all he ever cared about. That -- and not cynical manipulation -- would be the best way to earn profits and ensure the long term health of the company. "Quality is the best business plan" -- John Lasseter.

Disney doesn't profit without focusing on improving the guest experience. They just think this does improve the guest experience at this point.

 

[maxiesmom]

Disney doesn't profit without focusing on improving the guest experience. They just think this does improve the guest experience at this point.

Exactly. They had a new Disney Parks show on tv the other day, and when they mentioned FP+, it was always with comments about how it is meant to improve the guest experience.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Exactly. They had a new Disney Parks show on tv the other day, and when they mentioned FP+, it was always with comments about how it is meant to improve the guest experience.

There may be good intentions behind it, but intentions and execution do not always end up being the same thing.

And also...it isn't like they are ever going to say "we did this for the data mining and money" on a show designed to get people to.come to the parks, so of course they will focus on the guest experience in that venue. Their IT dept may have its issues, but their marketing dept knows what they are doing..

 

[maxiesmom]

There may be good intentions behind it, but intentions and execution do not always end up being the same thing.

And also...it isn't like they are ever going to say "we did this for the data mining and money" on a show designed to get people to.come to the parks, so of course they will focus on the guest experience in that venue. Their IT dept may have its issues, but their marketing dept knows what they are doing..

I'm sure they do. And as I stated before, it is no different than those grocery store cards that only give you sale prices if you swipe your card. They are doing it to track you for whatever reason.

Plus there are plenty of people who like FP+. Not everyone, but then not everyone loved regular old FP either. As with anything, it stinks for those who do not like it, but it is great for those who do.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I'm sure they do. And as I stated before, it is no different than those grocery store cards that only give you sale prices if you swipe your card. They are doing it to track you for whatever reason.

I agree...never said otherwise.

P

lus there are plenty of people who like FP+. Not everyone, but then not everyone loved regular old FP either. As with anything, it stinks for those who do not like it, but it is great for those who do.

I also agree that there are plenty of people who like FP+. I've never said otherwise, and I've always said I'm happy for those that do like it.

All I was saying was that Disney would never put anything in a Disney Parks show where they were saying anything other than changes are for bettering the guest experience and that people like it. The fact that it's something said on a TV show doesn't really prove much other than Disney is great at marketing...something we all knew already

 

[Davey Jones II]

Exactly. They had a new Disney Parks show on tv the other day, and when they mentioned FP+, it was always with comments about how it is meant to improve the guest experience.

That's called marketing spin. Of course they will say that on T.V.

Disney introduced this new reservation system because they see the parks as little more than a giant mall. They believe that the MBs make it easier for people to buy stuff, and that's what they want: they want to sell us more stuff while we're there. The data mining is also part of this process.

Again, if they really wanted to improve the guest experience, they would have spent the money on new lands/attractions and plussing of existing attractions. High attendance numbers mean fabulous profits for the WDC. I believe that the company has an obligation to put a good chunk of those profits into excellent attractions which will improve ride capacity, to absorb more of those crowds. I believe that is a far better solution than redistributing crowds by fooling them into getting in FP+ lines for the mediocre attractions which should have been replaced long ago. Call me naive or foolish if you disagree with these simple statements.

For all the world class attractions at WDW, there are also plenty of forgettable ones which only now see wait times because people who don't know any better have booked FP+ for them, just to fill out their three for the day. For all the great stuff there, there are also underdeveloped lands, and lots of walking to get to the quality attractions. There are parks with too much space for too few attractions (Epcot, Animal Kingdom) or too few rides and too many shows (DHS). Anything not named the Magic Kingdom has vast room for improvement.

Disney recently spent $1.1 billion on a revamp for one park, DCA, and it was one of the best investments they ever made. So that $1.5 billion for MDE/MB/FP+? Oh yes, they easily could pour that much or more into WDW infrastructure (as opposed to IT infrastructure) and it would be much needed and "about damn time" -- it would not be a case of spoiling us rotten. It would mean that WDW would get closer to its true potential as a world class theme park resort.

But, to all appearances, Disney still wants it to be a giant mall with rides.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I really wish people wouldn't claim to know what a dead person would do. None of us know how Walt would have changed as he aged, or what changes to his business he would approve of, or call questionable.

What some posters look at as erosion some of us look at as a positive step. Not one of us knows for sure what Walt would think.

I agree that the whole "what Walt would have done" line of argument is taken way too far sometimes. However, I feel pretty confident in my statement because Walt clearly showed an obsession with continual improvement, during the entire time that he was in charge of Disneyland.

 

[AmyB2006]

Again, if they really wanted to improve the guest experience, they would have spent the money on new lands/attractions and plussing of existing attractions.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but MY experience along with a lot of others, has been improved with FP+ and MBs.

Granted not every single guest feels this way, but a lot do.

They are now starting to spend money on new attractions. Avatarland, whatever they're doing in DHS, Frozen/Maelstrom (which a lot don't like, but again, I'm sure a lot will like), Soarin update, etc.

Some people like it, some people don't. I feel bad for the ones that don't, that don't get to experience Disney the way they used to, or in some cases is worse. That makes me sad.

 

[maxiesmom]

I agree that the whole "what Walt would have done" line of argument is taken way too far sometimes. However, I feel pretty confident in my statement because Walt clearly showed an obsession with continual improvement, during the entire time that he was in charge of Disneyland.

I can actually agree with that. However none of us know if Walt would have seen FP+ as an improvement or not.

Also, regarding your post about what Disney should be doing, it is very easy to run a business from the outside. Not so easy when you know all of the ins and outs, the day to day details of the business.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but MY experience along with a lot of others, has been improved with FP+ and MBs.

Granted not every single guest feels this way, but a lot do.

They are now starting to spend money on new attractions. Avatarland, whatever they're doing in DHS, Frozen/Maelstrom (which a lot don't like, but again, I'm sure a lot will like), Soarin update, etc.

Some people like it, some people don't. I feel bad for the ones that don't, that don't get to experience Disney the way they used to, or in some cases is worse. That makes me sad.

Yes, they are adding to their parks...but slowly. The DCA expansion showed that they can move faster, if they really feel the need to/want to. So it's a shame that selling more merch seemed to be their highest priority for WDW.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I can actually agree with that. However none of us know if Walt would have seen FP+ as an improvement or not.

Also, regarding your post about what Disney should be doing, it is very easy to run a business from the outside. Not so easy when you know all of the ins and outs, the day to day details of the business.

True enough. But, given the same financial resources, I am quite sure that the parks would not be underdeveloped under the management of someone like Walt. A leader like that simply would not stand for it.

And yes, most of them today are *somewhat* underdeveloped, IMHO.

 

[AmyB2006]

Yes, they are adding to their parks...but slowly. The DCA expansion showed that they can move faster, if they really feel the need to/want to. So it's a shame that selling more merch seemed to be their highest priority for WDW.

They do move slowly, that's for sure.

But I don't think they're so shortsighted as you do I guess. On the surface, sure it might seem like selling merchandise.

But this system isn't just about that imo. I think they had to lay this system out and get it implemented because it's going to affect everything they attempt to do in the future. 5, 10, 15 years down the road.

 

[OtherScott]

That's called marketing spin. Of course they will say that on T.V. Disney introduced this new reservation system because they see the parks as little more than a giant mall. They believe that the MBs make it easier for people to buy stuff, and that's what they want: they want to sell us more stuff while we're there. The data mining is also part of this process. Again, if they really wanted to improve the guest experience, they would have spent the money on new lands/attractions and plussing of existing attractions. High attendance numbers mean fabulous profits for the WDC. I believe that the company has an obligation to put a good chunk of those profits into excellent attractions which will improve ride capacity, to absorb more of those crowds. I believe that is a far better solution than redistributing crowds by fooling them into getting in FP+ lines for the mediocre attractions which should have been replaced long ago. Call me naive or foolish if you disagree with these simple statements. For all the world class attractions at WDW, there are also plenty of forgettable ones which only now see wait times because people who don't know any better have booked FP+ for them, just to fill out their three for the day. For all the great stuff there, there are also underdeveloped lands, and lots of walking to get to the quality attractions. There are parks with too much space for too few attractions (Epcot, Animal Kingdom) or too few rides and too many shows (DHS). Anything not named the Magic Kingdom has vast room for improvement. Disney recently spent $1.1 billion on a revamp for one park, DCA, and it was one of the best investments they ever made. So that $1.5 billion for MDE/MB/FP+? Oh yes, they easily could pour that much or more into WDW infrastructure (as opposed to IT infrastructure) and it would be much needed and "about damn time" -- it would not be a case of spoiling us rotten. It would mean that WDW would get closer to its true potential as a world class theme park resort. But, to all appearances, Disney still wants it to be a giant mall with rides.

Your opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's, and only as valuable as anyone else's.

If you started a thread on DIS about which rides should go and what rides should be added, I doubt you'd get a plurality to agree, much less a majority.