Can I ask all you conservative people a question?

[N.Bailey]

1993 was 13 years ago. How far back do you want?

All the serial killers you named were operative in the 70s and 80s except the Boston Strangler (60s).

I didn't realize that Jack the Ripper was in the 70 or the 80s either. My bad!

 

[TDC Nala]

There was porn in the 1880s when Jack the Ripper was active. It wasn't available by computer but was available nonetheless. Jack the Ripper killed prostitutes and there wasn't any shortage of them in London.

 

[cardaway]

We're comparing BEFORE any porn was available to since it has been to see if there is a correlation. I think we can conclude that there was porn 13 years ago.

No such thing. Porn has been around since people first had sex drives.

 

[N.Bailey]

There was porn in the 1880s when Jack the Ripper was active. It wasn't available by computer but was available nonetheless. Jack the Ripper killed prostitutes and there wasn't any shortage of them in London.

You've got a point there, but I don't believe he ever engaged in sexual relations with any of his victims. I could be wrong about that though, but I don't recall that he was. IMO, he chose them because they'd be the least noticed and missed which would enable him to get away pretty easily. That's just opinion though. No two ways about it, he was a nut job, much like Bundy and probably had a pure hatred for all women.

Edit: And mentioning notorious serial killers was my way of saying, these men didn't really need porn to set them off. They're just PURE evil and nothing society could ever do would prevent these types from killing. Not all killers are on this level though. MANY are in it just for the sex, then don't want to leave a witness behind.

 

[JennyMominRI]

In this argument, you might want to look to a time before the '90s? JMOO though.

Actually on thing tha link does show is that violent crime is down since the internet became widely available and as a result,befor internet porn was available

 

[JennyMominRI]

You've got a point there, but I don't believe he ever engaged in sexual relations with any of his victims. I could be wrong about that though, but I don't recall that he was. IMO, he chose them because they'd be the least noticed and missed which would enable him to get away pretty easily. That's just opinion though. No two ways about it, he was a nut job, much like Bundy and probably had a pure hatred for all women.

They often say that killers who use knives use them as a substitute for their.... Um,word I can't say..I'm not saying that's Jack The Rippers motivation,but I know I've heard that hypothesis before.
Not sure what this has to do with our discussion,but I thought I'd throw it in
A great site on JTR for any other Ripperologists
http://www.casebook.org/

 

[TDC Nala]

Jack the Ripper had around five victims, maybe a few more. All were prostitutes. Ted Bundy probably had around 40 and none of his were prostitutes. There was a guy named Gary Ridgway who pleaded guilty to 48 serial killings in Washington State, most of whom were prostitutes. John Wayne Gacy killed 33, but his victims were men.

I've got to think it takes more than the availability of pornography to cause this.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Jack the Ripper had around five victims, maybe a few more. All were prostitutes. Ted Bundy probably had around 40 and none of his were prostitutes. There was a guy named Gary Ridgway who pleaded guilty to 48 serial killings in Washington State, most of whom were prostitutes. John Wayne Gacy killed 33, but his victims were men.

I've got to think it takes more than the availability of pornography to cause this.

There is some suspicion that Jack escaped to America and continued here.Thee were some prostitute murders somewhere in the US that were similar to his

 

[N.Bailey]

Actually on thing tha link does show is that violent crime is down since the internet became widely available and as a result,befor internet porn was available

I didn't see where you live, but tell me, how does your state stack up?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

RI I see, it looks like RI didn't do too well.

 

[N.Bailey]

They often say that killers who use knives use them as a substitute for their.... Um,word I can't say..I'm not saying that's Jack The Rippers motivation,but I know I've heard that hypothesis before.
Not sure what this has to do with our discussion,but I thought I'd throw it in
A great site on JTR for any other Ripperologists
http://www.casebook.org/

Agree that it has nothing to do with the conversation, but I love reading back on cases like these.

Did you know they moved the graves of his victims and on their tombstone wrote, and this isn't an exact quote, here lies such and such - victim of Jack the Ripper.

I find that pretty repulsive. Maybe I'm alone with my thinking, but if I were murdered, I would not want my murderers name, or signature on my tombstone.

 

[JennyMominRI]

I didn't see where you live, but tell me, how does your state stack up?

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

RI I see, it looks like RI didn't do too well.

Providence and a couple of it's immedate suburbs have a very high crime rate..The rest of the state is pretty low in crime...One of the reasons I moved here,aside of the fact that I'm from here is that the city I lived in Oceanside Ca,had a crime index of 140(the norm is 100) and Warwick was a 47
Not sure what your point is though?

Why don't you look at countries which have much more libeal sex laws,like the UK and Canada,where things like prostitution are legal,and nudity is on TV nightly,and compare their crime rates to ours

 

[N.Bailey]

Jack the Ripper had around five victims, maybe a few more. All were prostitutes. Ted Bundy probably had around 40 and none of his were prostitutes. There was a guy named Gary Ridgway who pleaded guilty to 48 serial killings in Washington State, most of whom were prostitutes. John Wayne Gacy killed 33, but his victims were men.

I've got to think it takes more than the availability of pornography to cause this.

You're failing to miss the point I was trying to make. It's the serial killers who I acknowledged that porn did NOT play into their thought process. They're just PURE evil and nothing society could do would be enough. You keep going back to the serial killers, yet they were who I included as the exceptions!

We can't begin to know what makes guys like this tick. IMO, it's just an evil embedded so deep that only death can destroy it.

 

[N.Bailey]

There is some suspicion that Jack escaped to America and continued here.Thee were some prostitute murders somewhere in the US that were similar to his

I read that in several ports (forget where exactly) that there were many murders in the same fashion. That's why it was suggested that he was perhaps in the military. Maybe in the medical field on a Navy ship?

 

[JennyMominRI]

I read that in several ports (forget where exactly) that there were many murders in the same fashion. That's why it was suggested that he was perhaps in the military. Maybe in the medical field on a Navy ship?

His cuts were very skillful and indicated some level of medical knowedge

 

[N.Bailey]

Providence and a couple of it's immedate suburbs have a very high crime rate..The rest of the state is pretty low in crime...One of the reasons I moved here,aside of the fact that I'm from here is that the city I lived in Oceanside Ca,had a crime index of 140(the norm is 100) and Warwick was a 47
Not sure what your point is though?

Why don't you look at countries which have much more libeal sex laws,like the UK and Canada,where things like prostitution are legal,and nudity is on TV nightly,and compare their crime rates to ours

IMO it's wrong to compare the US to any other country for the simple fact that many other countries don't face the situations we do. Did you know that the illegal immigrants make up like 7% of the population, yet they make up something like 35% of the prison population? What other country deals with that? What about our poverty rate? Do all the countries have the same % of poor? Same for drugs? Our challenges here may or may not be consistent on many levels with other countries. IMO, it's not a fair assessment to make.

Let's compare America to the America in years gone by to get a more accurate look at what's happening here and why.

All MOO though

 

[N.Bailey]

Providence and a couple of it's immedate suburbs have a very high crime rate..The rest of the state is pretty low in crime...One of the reasons I moved here,aside of the fact that I'm from here is that the city I lived in Oceanside Ca,had a crime index of 140(the norm is 100) and Warwick was a 47
Not sure what your point is though?

Why don't you look at countries which have much more libeal sex laws,like the UK and Canada,where things like prostitution are legal,and nudity is on TV nightly,and compare their crime rates to ours

I also wanted to go back and say that I didn't feel the crime rate was really high in RI. I just see the crime rate really increased in RI since the '60s. It's nowhere near as bad as other states though.

American studies will also show a reduction in rape/homicide since porn has come onto the scene (legally). You really have to read them to see how those tests were run. Looking at a play by play for each individual state during that time though, just doesn't really back those studies up.

I'm not sure how all the other countries tested their subjects either. If they're not true here, chances are, they may not be 100% accurate in those countries either. IMO, some how should I say, bend the rules a bit to get their ideology across? I think you can get any study to say whatever you want it to say. Crime statistics don't lie.

 

[JennyMominRI]

IMO it's wrong to compare the US to any other country for the simple fact that many other countries don't face the situations we do. Did you know that the illegal immigrants make up like 7% of the population, yet they make up something like 35% of the prison population? What other country deals with that? What about our poverty rate? Do all the countries have the same % of poor? Same for drugs? Our challenges here may or may not be consistent on many levels with other countries. IMO, it's not a fair assessment to make.

Let's compare America to the America in years gone by to get a more accurate look at what's happening here and why.

All MOO though

The UK has a very high immigrent population percentage wise. I think it's actually larger then our percentage. I have no clue about Canada.. The problem with comparing US stats to older ones is the fact that laws have changed A bit of info on the history of child abuse /molestation laws
wiwkipedia
General Sexual Abuse
Child abuse has been defined since the Middle ages. At the end of the middle ages general consent for a young girl to engage in sex with an adult was about 10-12 years of age. Christianity heavily influenced views on sex and the age of consent during this time. For Christians, sexual activity was strictly limited to reproductive purposes. Any sexual activity outside of limited reproductive purposes, such as engaging in intercourse with a girl that had not yet reached menarche, was considered deviant. At this point, any heterosexuals engaging in intercourse were considered married. The Reformation brought with it the establishment of formal marriages, which led to rampant prostitution and extramarital sex, which at this point was taboo. Young girls that were sexually abused were considered the perpetrators of adultery and only very young girls were viewed as victims. This first concept of an official age of consent occurred n England under the rule of Edward I in 1275. This idea spread throughout Europe and later to the American colonies. During the French Revolution, the legal marriage age was increased to 18 to 21 years in most countries, but many laws concerning sexual relations outside of marriage were repealed, leaving many youth unprotected. Prior to the 19th century, children were considered to be small adults. In the early 19th century, adolescence became a time of preparation for adulthood, and child roles became evident. Rigid standards for sexuality also developed and there was a greater emphasis on purity. In the 19th century there was a movement away from punishing immoral sexual acts and towards protecting certain groups. Cultures formed distinct opinions of the nature of sexual abuse.

[edit]
The Rise of Public Concern
Child sexual abuse became a public issue in the 1970s and 1980s. Prior to this point in time sexual abuse remained rather secretive and socially unspeakable. Child sexual abuse only came an issue after laws that protected cruelty to children were established. In the late 1800s the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was formed and by 1900 there were 161 similar groups. This legal action was in response to a high profile case in 1874 known as the Mary Ellen case, which involved the abuse of a small child.

In 1900 children were given equal status as domesticated animals under the law. Studies on child molestation were nonexistent until the 1920s and the first national estimate of the number of child sexual abuse cases was published in 1948. By 1968 44 states had enacted mandatory laws that required physicians to report cases of suspicious child abuse. Legal action began to become more prevalent in the 1970s with the enactment of the Child Abuse and Treatment Act in 1974 in conjunction with the creation of the National Center for Child Abuse and Neglect. Since the creation of the Child Abuse and Treatment Act, reported child abuse cases have increased dramatically. Finally, the National Abuse Coalition was created in 1979 to create pressure in congress to create more sexual abuse laws. In 1986, Congress passed the Child Abuse Victims' Rights Act, giving children a civil claim in sexual abuse cases. The number of laws created in the 1980s and 1990s began to create greater prosecution and detection of Child Sexual Abusers. During the 1970s a large transition began in the legislature related to Child Sexual Abuse. Megan's Law which was enacted in 2004 gives the public access to knowledge of sexual predators nationwide

 

[JennyMominRI]

I also wanted to go back and say that I didn't feel the crime rate was really high in RI. I just see the crime rate really increased in RI since the '60s. It's nowhere near as bad as other states though.

American studies will also show a reduction in rape/homicide since porn has come onto the scene (legally). You really have to read them to see how those tests were run. Looking at a play by play for each individual state during that time though, just doesn't really back those studies up.

I'm not sure how all the other countries tested their subjects either. If they're not true here, chances are, they may not be 100% accurate in those countries either. IMO, some how should I say, bend the rules a bit to get their ideology across? I think you can get any study to say whatever you want it to say. Crime statistics don't lie.

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand and is probably boring,but I think one of the main reasons for the rise in crims in some parts of RI is the serious economic depression that happened here in the 60's .70's and 80's..These were really though decades from RI and people left in droves ,poverty rose etc..I think it's improving..There has been a real renassaince in Providence in the last 10 years.. I think there is a much higher link to violent crime and poverty than anything else

 

[N.Bailey]

The UK has a very high immigrent population percentage wise. I think it's actually larger then our percentage. I have no clue about Canada.. The problem with comparing US stats to older ones is the fact that laws have changed A bit of info on the history of child abuse /molestation laws
wiwkipedia
General Sexual Abuse
Child abuse has been defined since the Middle ages. At the end of the middle ages general consent for a young girl to engage in sex with an adult was about 10-12 years of age. Christianity heavily influenced views on sex and the age of consent during this time. For Christians, sexual activity was strictly limited to reproductive purposes. Any sexual activity outside of limited reproductive purposes, such as engaging in intercourse with a girl that had not yet reached menarche, was considered deviant. At this point, any heterosexuals engaging in intercourse were considered married. The Reformation brought with it the establishment of formal marriages, which led to rampant prostitution and extramarital sex, which at this point was taboo. Young girls that were sexually abused were considered the perpetrators of adultery and only very young girls were viewed as victims. This first concept of an official age of consent occurred n England under the rule of Edward I in 1275. This idea spread throughout Europe and later to the American colonies. During the French Revolution, the legal marriage age was increased to 18 to 21 years in most countries, but many laws concerning sexual relations outside of marriage were repealed, leaving many youth unprotected. Prior to the 19th century, children were considered to be small adults. In the early 19th century, adolescence became a time of preparation for adulthood, and child roles became evident. Rigid standards for sexuality also developed and there was a greater emphasis on purity. In the 19th century there was a movement away from punishing immoral sexual acts and towards protecting certain groups. Cultures formed distinct opinions of the nature of sexual abuse.

[edit]
The Rise of Public Concern
Child sexual abuse became a public issue in the 1970s and 1980s. Prior to this point in time sexual abuse remained rather secretive and socially unspeakable. Child sexual abuse only came an issue after laws that protected cruelty to children were established. In the late 1800s the Prevention of Cruelty to Children was formed and by 1900 there were 161 similar groups. This legal action was in response to a high profile case in 1874 known as the Mary Ellen case, which involved the abuse of a small child.

In 1900 children were given equal status as domesticated animals under the law. Studies on child molestation were nonexistent until the 1920s and the first national estimate of the number of child sexual abuse cases was published in 1948. By 1968 44 states had enacted mandatory laws that required physicians to report cases of suspicious child abuse. Legal action began to become more prevalent in the 1970s with the enactment of the Child Abuse and Treatment Act in 1974 in conjunction with the creation of the National Center for Child Abuse and Neglect. Since the creation of the Child Abuse and Treatment Act, reported child abuse cases have increased dramatically. Finally, the National Abuse Coalition was created in 1979 to create pressure in congress to create more sexual abuse laws. In 1986, Congress passed the Child Abuse Victims' Rights Act, giving children a civil claim in sexual abuse cases. The number of laws created in the 1980s and 1990s began to create greater prosecution and detection of Child Sexual Abusers. During the 1970s a large transition began in the legislature related to Child Sexual Abuse. Megan's Law which was enacted in 2004 gives the public access to knowledge of sexual predators nationwide

I don't disagree with you and thanks for the history lesson!

I don't think we can attribute rises in crime to any one thing specifically. There are many factors that come into play. How a child was raised is 1 factor. Economics IMO plays a HUGE part in crime, though many disagree with that too. More so than economics, I'd say education levels come into play and IMO, education is the KEY to really lowering our crime rates across the board. I also feel that porn plays a massive role as well. Now, I know the vast majority have no problems viewing porn, but the same can't be said of everyone out there. Go ask Sharon Rocha what her opinion of porn is. Go ask any family member that lost a loved one to rape/homicide. Many inmates have also gone on the record as saying porn played a huge role in their actions. Now, can you believe an inmate? Are they saying what they think their interviewer wants to hear? There are no clear cut answers, but I don't think they're all lying. Some had nothing to lose because they were being released from prison.

 

[N.Bailey]

This has nothing to do with the topic at hand and is probably boring,but I think one of the main reasons for the rise in crims in some parts of RI is the serious economic depression that happened here in the 60's .70's and 80's..These were really though decades from RI and people left in droves ,poverty rose etc..I think it's improving..There has been a real renassaince in Providence in the last 10 years.. I think there is a much higher link to violent crime and poverty than anything else

We must have been on the same train of thought with our posts. I agree that poverty plays a major role in crime. Many disagree with that though. I even seen some totally blown away that the subject would even be brought up. They thought it was totally irrelevant.